When you boss sucks, and the team proejct is going to hell, you can 2 things. You can try and explain to him why thing suck. If he is a real idiot like Dolan he will get mad at you. Then, if you really want to keep the job, you just seat there and go along with the nonsense. Eventually the whole group gets fired in a cost cutting move by upper management, and the moron is either reasigned, demoted, or more rarely also fired.

Now, Brown does not really need the money, why not use your position of being a "star" employee who can just go and get an better job in another company and stand up to your boss? Just because most of us can't do it due to our position, it doesnt make it a bad thing.

Yes it does make it a bad thing. It's wrong to do. You sign a 50 million dollar contract to do what is asked of you, not hold an organization hostage. There were no surprises for LB, he knew what he was getting into.

Kinda makes me wonder if oohah is not a midlevel manager who has trouble gettin his people to perform.

Let the record show that simrud has made an unprovoked derogatory personal comment towards me.

Your position strongly suggests that you have never worked. That's fine if you are 13-17, but if you are over 18, you should understand that when you are hired, you are hired to do a job, not teach your boss a lesson. This does not change from 5 dollars to 50 million.

And if you cannot or won't do your job with what the boss is has provided for you, then you tell the boss privately, you don't stand on a table and shout it out in the middle of the office. That is a fireable offense. And if your boss won't change for you then quit.

That is the way adults should behave in a professional situation.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 06-10-2006 9:41 PM]

Hmm, looks like I hit on a nerve.

Way to ignore the major part of my post with a questoin mark and just go on repeating yourself.

I'm ready for the 5 mile long post, with a minimum of 3 quotes.

Posted by oohah:


Don't you think LB has other motives than just challenging his players? Is part of it not just to humiliate or gain dominance?

I know that theory gets floated about quit a bit. I think it overstates the case. I think after witnessing Isiah's relationship with Marbury, and how he empowers him ("he's never been in play and will never be in play") relative to his relationship with Chaney, Lenny and Herb, I suspect he came in expecting to have to play hardball to to get thru to some of the players that there's a new sheriff in town, and a new set of rules to live by.

But lets not confuse a sheriff for a Mayor, Governor, President or King. Being a hardass sheriff to get respect is not tantamount to trying to unseat the governing bodies. It's merely flexing the juice cards he was given.

Didn't LB know the car had no motor when he showed up? How does dragging everything into the media help? No matter the performance of the team, it seems that all he ahd to do was keep his greivances in-house,to maintain a decent relationship with the owner. I don't think that is unreasonable, do you?

knowing who's on the roster and how they would perform together are two separate things. You could sell me a used car of a model I am familiar with and even include pictures of all you consider wrong with it but it's just not the same thing as road testing it, putting it on a lift and starting an overhaul.

I think a lot of people assume Larry's job was to give the vehicle and Earl Scheib paint job and get it up up to 50 MPH just as quickly as possible, whereas Larry might have thought he was involved in a strip-down operation to make a classic show car.

As for how far things went in the media, sure, it was unfortunate, particularly the exchanges with Marbury. But to the best of my recollection anything after the 6 game win-streak was Marbury initiated. And if Isiah can't keep his own protege in check why should Brown? Perhaps he felt if this is how Isiah wants it to play out, since he's letting Steph do it, he'll go with it.

Keep in mind, Larry never muzzled Marbury (or anyone else), never sent anyone to the NBDL, never buried anyone for long. He was willing to tango with these guys, to get dirty with them, to go through the mud with them, but also to never give up on them. I think it was part of his process to fight and brawl but allowing them to come out of it with commraderie.

Sorta like Paul Newman and George Kennedy in "Cool Hand Luke." They were enemies until they brawled. Then Kennedy understands Luke will DIE TRYING TO WIN. Luke could be broken physically but never mentally. In contrast I think Brown found Steph easily mentally dispiritied and ready to give up. That's why all the talks about poor body language, resiliance, guys wanting to win, mental toughness, etc. All concerns that predated Brown, btw.

I truly think Brown would accept anybody on the team as a warrior if they showed that they really got on board with him and the team by the end. regardless of how they began.

Isiah was telling in his WFAN interview when he said "Larry will not just test you physically, he will test you mentally as well." He also admitted that he himself probably underestimated the need for mentally tough players for the NY market.

These are all components of Browns tests, to find the mentally strong, to find those who'll die to win, to find those who'll fight together in the trenches.

He found some. Unfortunately too few.

I don't think that Dowlan is doing the right thing, but it certainly is poetic. I don't find it to be as much of a mockery as it is being made out to be, that is mostly the media, which makes a circus out of everything. He is under no obligation to fire LB under LB's or anyone else's terms. One thing I am certain of; If Dolan releases him then bashes LB in the press, he will be decried just as much as his now, so what is the difference?

Yes, people will still knock Dolan is he fires Brown and then knocks him, but at least then it's just between the two of them.

I just feel that the psyche of the players and assistant coaches, etc. are being held hostage by this drama. There are too many innocents caught in the crossfire and I'd like to see their be a resolution (if not catharsis) of some sort for everyone involved, rather than a continuance of the uncertainty that was front and center of this year's turmoil. It seemed to really take it's toll on some of the players and I can't imagine it's helping anyone's off-season motivation. Nor can it be good for recruiting.

if Drown is dead-meat and this is all about shaving a few bucks off his buyout, or some sense of poetic justice, I'd rather if Dolan fires him and then decides to haggle over breach of contract. On the other hand, if they want to keep Larry and this is an attempt to humiliate him into some sort of concessions on tactics or propriety, why not just have the face-to-face that Larry's been asking for? Or if you really just want to make him twist tell him if he wont accept a buyout you'll Tim Thomas him and pay him to stay home for 4 years. LB will be 70 when that's over and that would pretty much ensure his retirement as a coach. Something tells me Larry wouldn't like going out like that, and to a lifelong gym rat like him four years at home with his wife and kids would probably be the greatest punishment of all.

haha

You met the minimum of 3 quotes. Good job man. Keep posting away like an arrogant fck and you will make even more friends.

Isiah is a snake. marbury is a piece of $hit.


Blame the loses on fundamentals, but any 125 million dollar squad that can't handle a bit of public critique is one sorry weak bunch. Even our toughest player had to run up and defend some little dude from his wife pummeling his ass!

This team is sorry and blame Larry instead of that scowling piece of $hit if very telling.

Dolan is a paronoide weak little man who keeps weak little men around him to cater to his every whim.

Stand up and you get the boot. Grunfeld, JVG walke out, checketts, the list goes on.

You larry haters forget what the hell happend on the court and think it was all larrys little comments that was tearing this team apart.

YOu'l soon have your wish and have your cool little "zeke" coach this team.

I am ashamed at the lack of professinalism of this team from the top on down. This team has like 6 real men on its roster the rest are bloated soft little bitches.

[Edited by - nalod on 06-10-2006 11:35 PM]

I know that theory gets floated about quit a bit. I think it overstates the case. I think after witnessing Isiah's relationship with Marbury, and how he empowers him ("he's never been in play and will never be in play") relative to his relationship with Chaney, Lenny and Herb, I suspect he came in expecting to have to play hardball to to get thru to some of the players that there's a new sheriff in town, and a new set of rules to live by.

But lets not confuse a sheriff for a Mayor, Governor, President or King. Being a hardass sheriff to get respect is not tantamount to trying to unseat the governing bodies. It's merely flexing the juice cards he was given.

But doesn't a sheriff have to listen to his superiors? Can the Sheriff flout the king? Not without fear of repercussions. He will end up in the gallows every time!

knowing who's on the roster and how they would perform together are two separate things. You could sell me a used car of a model I am familiar with and even include pictures of all you consider wrong with it but it's just not the same thing as road testing it, putting it on a lift and starting an overhaul.

I think a lot of people assume Larry's job was to give the vehicle and Earl Scheib paint job and get it up up to 50 MPH just as quickly as possible, whereas Larry might have thought he was involved in a strip-down operation to make a classic show car.

Okay, but strip it down in between races! (Or shows.) In the meantime drive that car as best you can, and for chrissake, don't piss-off the guy funding your team!

As for how far things went in the media, sure, it was unfortunate, particularly the exchanges with Marbury. But to the best of my recollection anything after the 6 game win-streak was Marbury initiated. And if Isiah can't keep his own protege in check why should Brown? Perhaps he felt if this is how Isiah wants it to play out, since he's letting Steph do it, he'll go with it.

I recall it differently. I believe that Marbury went off on Brown soon after yet another remark.

I don't think that Brown thought "well if Steph can do it..." because he was doing it from the beginning and he did it to many players not just Marbury.

Keep in mind, Larry never muzzled Marbury (or anyone else), never sent anyone to the NBDL, never buried anyone for long. He was willing to tango with these guys, to get dirty with them, to go through the mud with them, but also to never give up on them. I think it was part of his process to fight and brawl but allowing them to come out of it with commraderie.

LB is not the muzzler, Dolan is.

LB did bury some players for inordinantly long periods of time, the one that comes to my mind first is Robinson who was starting, then he won the dunk contest, then he did not play for about 15 games.

It seems to me that the only one who stepped up ready to tango was LB. Everyone knows that LB likes to get down with his players, but the extent of his tangoing was a surprise.

I don't know if his plan was to fight until they end up with camaraderie. But I do know too much of that will destroy a team. There are limits!

Sorta like Paul Newman and George Kennedy in "Cool Hand Luke." They were enemies until they brawled. Then Kennedy understands Luke will DIE TRYING TO WIN. Luke could be broken physically but never mentally. In contrast I think Brown found Steph easily mentally dispiritied and ready to give up. That's why all the talks about poor body language, resiliance, guys wanting to win, mental toughness, etc. All concerns that predated Brown, btw.

Cool Hand Luke, a great Movie! But the movies are different from real life. It's one thing to test and challenge a man to do better, and it is another to insult him and treat him with utter disrespect. Like I wrote above, there is such a thing as going too far, and in my opinion, LB went way too far.

But I don't think his treatment of players is what is going to get him fired. It'll be his disrespect of Dolan. Dolan is a clown, whatever...I have had many bosses who were numbnut clowns, but you have to treat your employer with respect. It is only right. And if you don't treat your employer with respect, playing by his or her rules, you get fired!

I truly think Brown would accept anybody on the team as a warrior if they showed that they really got on board with him and the team by the end. regardless of how they began.

I don't know about that. Supposedly he wanted to trade David Robinson, a true warrior AND a good company man, and he wanted to trade Iverson, who will go down as one of the ultimate warriors ever.

Isiah was telling in his WFAN interview when he said "Larry will not just test you physically, he will test you mentally as well." He also admitted that he himself probably underestimated the need for mentally tough players for the NY market.

These are all components of Browns tests, to find the mentally strong, to find those who'll die to win, to find those who'll fight together in the trenches.

He found some. Unfortunately too few.

Isiah knew they were getting a tough nut when they hired LB, but I believe he has gone further than he ever has last season. Further than IT or Dolan or any of us expected. And I really don't think there was one player who he found to be enough of a warrior for his taste. If Iverson was not, how can any of these guys be?

Yes, people will still knock Dolan is he fires Brown and then knocks him, but at least then it's just between the two of them.

I just feel that the psyche of the players and assistant coaches, etc. are being held hostage by this drama. There are too many innocents caught in the crossfire and I'd like to see their be a resolution (if not catharsis) of some sort for everyone involved, rather than a continuance of the uncertainty that was front and center of this year's turmoil. It seemed to really take it's toll on some of the players and I can't imagine it's helping anyone's off-season motivation. Nor can it be good for recruiting.

Really? I don't think anyone cares that much but us. I'd be surprised if any players current or prospective care if Brown is twisting in the wind. I would not be surprised if some of the current guys are getting a kick out of it. And if LB has really lost the team, his firing will only motivate them more.

if Drown is dead-meat and this is all about shaving a few bucks off his buyout, or some sense of poetic justice, I'd rather if Dolan fires him and then decides to haggle over breach of contract. On the other hand, if they want to keep Larry and this is an attempt to humiliate him into some sort of concessions on tactics or propriety, why not just have the face-to-face that Larry's been asking for? Or if you really just want to make him twist tell him if he wont accept a buyout you'll Tim Thomas him and pay him to stay home for 4 years. LB will be 70 when that's over and that would pretty much ensure his retirement as a coach. Something tells me Larry wouldn't like going out like that, and to a lifelong gym rat like him four years at home with his wife and kids would probably be the greatest punishment of all.

I think those are all decent ideas of how to handle this situation.

Like I wrote in my first post on this thread, they might just be trying to do him the way he did them.

Or more likely, they may just be trying to figure out how they want to handle the situation, what they are willing to pay, who they want to hire, etc. and they don't feel like rushing just to put LB at ease.

oohah

Posted by Nalod:

Isiah is a snake. marbury is a piece of $hit.


Blame the loses on fundamentals, but any 125 million dollar squad that can't handle a bit of public critique is one sorry weak bunch. Even our toughest player had to run up and defend some little dude from his wife pummeling his ass!

This team is sorry and blame Larry instead of that scowling piece of $hit if very telling.

Dolan is a paronoide weak little man who keeps weak little men around him to cater to his every whim.

Stand up and you get the boot. Grunfeld, JVG walke out, checketts, the list goes on.

You larry haters forget what the hell happend on the court and think it was all larrys little comments that was tearing this team apart.

YOu'l soon have your wish and have your cool little "zeke" coach this team.

I am ashamed at the lack of professinalism of this team from the top on down. This team has like 6 real men on its roster the rest are bloated soft little bitches.

[Edited by - nalod on 06-10-2006 11:35 PM]

Nolad, I kept reading waiting for a punch line and didn't get one...The Grand Pubah really got you all riled up like some one pissed in your morning coffee....

I'm just tired of Blueseats or DJ feeding us this crap that when Larry went to the press and made derogatory statements about the players, it was done as a motivational tool or something premeditated to get the most out of our guys...When he wasn't trying to win games, it was brilliantly done to show the flaws of the ballclub so he can break it down and rebuilt again...

I particularly like when they give you one of these:

I think a lot of people assume Larry's job was to give the vehicle and Earl Scheib paint job and get it up up to 50 MPH just as quickly as possible, whereas Larry might have thought he was involved in a strip-down operation to make a classic show car.


or one of these...

These are all components of Browns tests, to find the mentally strong, to find those who'll die to win, to find those who'll fight together in the trenches.


It's as though they have the cool aid pipped in directly from the Hamptons void of any filter or anything that can possibly see this man do any wrong...I got two words for you guys, JIM JONES..

Guys for the record....23 wins in a season sucks and it's not a way to exposed the team for what they really are...It means that as a coach, your really sucked this year..

Trying to motivate your team by dragging your players through the mud in the press is not a good thing when the team quits on you. They may feel you have no respect for them or winning this year...It's not a reflection that the players as soft but it's a reflection that the coach is out of touch at this point on how to motivate a group of players in dire need of guidance...

Winning 40 games with any other coach is just as good as a Larry Brown 40 win team...In both cases, it means we barely made the playoffs and will probally get booted in the first round...Larry's 40 wins is no more special because you think his 40 wins that will lead to a Championship in the next year or two....

Please guys, save the extra Larry is walking on a higher ground crap for people who hasn't watched basketball and played basketball all their freaking lives...Man thats annoying...

i hope firing larry brown is not part of next season strategy.....big mistake

i hope firing larry brown is not part of next season strategy.....big mistake

I did not consider LB to be officially gone until Isiah did not say one way or the other this week in Orlando. Looks like he is toast for sure now.

oohah

what motivational tool? at the end of the day, lb was saying the roster blows and they need to make changes. apparently he gave a list of the type of players he wanted way back before the season started. maybe he realized that isiah wasn't going to do that and this was his way of trying to prove his point and try to get his way. obviously, it was the wrong way to go about it b/c he's going to get fired b/c of it. but there's a reason he asked for 5 years $50 mil.

Is that the only reason it was the wrong way to go about it? Just because he was fired? How about because it wasted a year, or because it is simply wrong to behave like that?

here's the deal - if lb wants to break it down to build it up again, then that's cool. why? b/c he WILL build it up again. but alas, the 5 year commitment is now only 1. the 3 year commitment to lenny turned out to be 82 games.

DJ, LB always has his foot out the door. With his health problems taken into consideration the only reasonable assumption is that LB was not going to be here for the full 5. The extra year strikes me as security or bonus, something like that.

oohah