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rvhoss
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6/8/2006  1:19 PM
lol...yes and yes.
all kool aid all the time.
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Bippity10
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6/8/2006  1:22 PM
I'm not in agreement. I think if marbs, LB and JRose come back as leaders we are in trouble. Marbs has talent but I feel we need to minimize his effect. The only way i can think is to find a player he can look up to. But that may not exist. Marbs' career record should tell us all that he is not a leader. Teams have put him in this position but it has not worked. He cannot be our leader.

I've loved JRose his entire career but I am extremely disappointed in the effort and back seat he took last year. I'm guessing he sees the writing on the wall and iwll just wait out his contract instead of taking a leadership role(just a prediction).

Our problem is we haven't figured out who our center piece is. We say it's Curry and yet we give Marbs all the power. Marbs is our best player but he doesn't lead and then we say in the press that we are building aroound Curry. So even if we are building around Marbs we are unintentionally undermining him. It's weird. I can't honestly say who our future is. I am not sold that if Isiah can acquire a "star" to assure a playoff at 40 wins that he wouldn't sell Frye and Lee.

I guess I'm just a pessimist. But the past has shown me a lot.
I just hope that people will like me
holfresh
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6/8/2006  3:06 PM
Bip I think you are over emphasizing Marbs...I think if Zeke coaches, then Marbs would be in check..I think Zeke is one of the few people that can constructively criticizes Marbs and have him think about it. I don' think that Marbs needs to be traded if we are building around Curry and Frye...But Francis has to go...He jsut holds the ball way too long for the bigs to be effective. I didn't get a chance to run through everyone's comments but good thread bro....Love misterearl....



[Edited by - holfresh on 06-08-2006 3:08 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 06-08-2006 3:09 PM]
TMS
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6/8/2006  3:17 PM
I think Zeke is one of the few people that can constructively criticizes Marbs and have him think about it.

sadly, that is the case... Marbury won't submit to anyone's authority but Isiah's, cuz it's Isiah who brought him here & it's Isiah who has the power to ship him out if need be... that's why i said earlier that Isiah's the only guy i can fathom that will be able to coach Marbury.

i agree w/u about Francis... if we can unload him, we definitely should... having him & Marbury on the roster will just lead to more jostling & unhappiness over playing time next season... that won't be productive for anyone concerned... they supposedly traded for Francis in order to obtain another trade assett for the offseason move Isiah is planning... i'm looking forward to seeing what he has up his sleeve this time, w/nervous anticipation may i add.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
McK1
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6/8/2006  4:02 PM
Steve deserves a chance to run the team without the presence of Steph
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Nalod
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6/8/2006  4:24 PM
Who are we building around?

Nalod: Curry.
Are we going young or veteran?

Nalod: Mix.

What's our style of play?

Nalod: FreedomBury.

Who is our coach and what is his philosophy?

Nalod: Larry (aka: the right way)
Isiah (survival)


What is our style of management?

Nalod: Starphuching the fan for all their money.


What type of players are we targeting?(not should we target but are we targetting)

Nalod: Expiring contracts! Brilliant!

Who are the mentors for the young players?

Nalod: Tossed salad man, Mr. Rogers and Bill Cosby.

Who is our unquestioned leader?
Bippity10
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6/8/2006  5:38 PM
Posted by holfresh:

Bip I think you are over emphasizing Marbs...I think if Zeke coaches, then Marbs would be in check..I think Zeke is one of the few people that can constructively criticizes Marbs and have him think about it. I don' think that Marbs needs to be traded if we are building around Curry and Frye...But Francis has to go...He jsut holds the ball way too long for the bigs to be effective. I didn't get a chance to run through everyone's comments but good thread bro....Love misterearl....



[Edited by - holfresh on 06-08-2006 3:08 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 06-08-2006 3:09 PM]

I don't think I'm overemphasizing Marbs at all. I think he clearly had a negative effect on this team that is undeniable. I also did say(like you did) that he can be marginalized. I don't think he has to be traded. But if you keep him you have to go out of your way as an organization to lessen his impact. It can't be coach vs. Marbs. It can't be anyone against Marbs because that is unfair to Marbs. It has to be Knicks first, with Marbs coming aboard, or being axed(minutes cut, bought out, traded for scraps). We can no longer cow tow to him if we wnat to win. This has to be clear by now.

As for Zeke and Marbs. I'm with you I think he is Marbs' last hope. I think marbs would listen to him. If he didn't than the man is clearly crazy. But this doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Yes we have isiah as a strong mentor to Marbs but it still leaves the door open to other major problems

1.) Zeke making a quick trigger, future savaging trade in order to save his own coaching asse.
2.) Zeke catering to Marbs and overdoing it, and not laying the hammer down because he likes haveing marbs as his pet, thus alienating the rest of his team

Now, again please read thoroughly. I'm not saying this is what will happen. But I am saying that just because Zeke is coach doesn't mean things have gotten any better. Even if we win 35-40 games the question remains, Where are we going?
I just hope that people will like me
TMS
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6/9/2006  11:05 AM
i agree Bip... Isiah coaching Marbury isn't necessarily going to be a good thing for our franchise longterm because of the ever present risk of alienating other teammates, but that's going to be the case as long as Marbury is on the roster... let's face it, the guy's not going to suddenly change his personality at this stage in the game... he'll be on his good behavior for a short stretch, & then revert to his Starbury ways as soon as the going gets tough... the only thing we can do is like you said, minimalize the effect he may have on the rest of the team by not catering to him & not build a team w/him as the focal point... however the risk you run w/that is that you alienate Marbury in the process, which may be counterproductive in itself since an alienated Marbury is a big pain in the tookus as we all saw this past season... this is why the only REAL solution in my eyes is to get rid of Marbury.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
holfresh
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6/9/2006  3:28 PM

I think you guys are looking at this situation entirely wrong...Last year in my eyes was about Brown public attacks on Marbs and Marbs not handling it like a man...I don't think Marbs was the instigator here... He was clearly provoked by LB..But lots of you are not willing to hold Larry's feet to the fire on this...You direct the blame squarely on Marb's shoulder...Now I know as a professional, Marbs could have handled the situation alot better...He didn't need to comment or retaliate...All he needed to do was play hard and listen to the coach..It didn't happen...But in my opinion, Larry is the guy squarely responsible for the morale and lack of desire displayed by the players late in the season...You guys are trying to say it was Marbs infectious attitude and I think you are totally wrong...Last year it was Larry Brwon against many players and Marbs was the guy that spoke up....I can't really say I blame Marbs for his reaction either...No player who has been a professional in this league for as long as Marbury has needed to be treated by Brown the way he was..No one..Larry is the coach, but he should at least have enough respect for the game not to let stuff like that out in public, even though his premise might have been correct...
Bippity10
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6/9/2006  3:45 PM
Holfresh: I think you are just entirely fixated on LB. I know TMS and read the majority of his posts and I have read almost 1000 times in which he has says he blames both people equally. I am the same way. I think you just ignore it because you think it has to be LB vs. Marbs so if someone criticizes Marbs they must love LB. It's not that way. They were both embarrassing this year. they both create problems EVERYWHERE THEY GO. Neither is an angel. The difference is that LB wins and Marbs never has. And everytime Marbs loses and has problems with teammates and coach's it's always the coach's fault, it's always the teammates fault. At some point we have to hold his feet to the fire or he is never going to change. That's all we want is change from what he has been doing. Or he has to go. We cannot have status quo on this team anymore. To you status quo started with LB. To me this same thing has been going on for years.

The players quit on Lenny, Herb and now LB. It's just magnified this eyar so we choose to forget the past. Marbs has been a part of it all. So obviously LB has to do a better job or he is fired. Marbs is the same.
I just hope that people will like me
Nalod
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6/9/2006  4:05 PM
holfresh
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6/9/2006  4:38 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Holfresh: I think you are just entirely fixated on LB. I know TMS and read the majority of his posts and I have read almost 1000 times in which he has says he blames both people equally. I am the same way. I think you just ignore it because you think it has to be LB vs. Marbs so if someone criticizes Marbs they must love LB. It's not that way. They were both embarrassing this year. they both create problems EVERYWHERE THEY GO. Neither is an angel. The difference is that LB wins and Marbs never has. And everytime Marbs loses and has problems with teammates and coach's it's always the coach's fault, it's always the teammates fault. At some point we have to hold his feet to the fire or he is never going to change. That's all we want is change from what he has been doing. Or he has to go. We cannot have status quo on this team anymore. To you status quo started with LB. To me this same thing has been going on for years.

The players quit on Lenny, Herb and now LB. It's just magnified this eyar so we choose to forget the past. Marbs has been a part of it all. So obviously LB has to do a better job or he is fired. Marbs is the same.



Bip, Lenny has not motivated any player he has coached in the last 10 years...This team never quit on Herb, they played hard for Herb..Yeah I was watching basketball then too....Larry burried his players in case you didn't notice...

I'm giving Marbs the benefit of a doubt...I think last year was a special case where Brown got into him good and he responded...If I'm in the league 10 years and have played all star caliber basketball in my career, I'm going to have a problem with Brown berating me in the press, calling me stupid in the press, and show no respect for me as a player or even a person for that matter...I think most of the posters here will as well...

How could you not be fixated on Brown...Last year was all about Larry Brown and how he handled the team...No escaping that...His lineups, rotations, and public disputes with players dictate how the season turned out...Marbs vs. Brown was a sideshow to the entire debacle Brown orchastrated this past year...Marbs has his baggage, but you can't pin last year's meltdown on him...

And please,for the last time, when I defend Marbs, I'm not calling you or anyone else a Larry Lover!!!



[Edited by - holfresh on 06-09-2006 4:40 PM]
TMS
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6/9/2006  4:43 PM
Bip, I've given up trying to state my case to holfresh... he ignores what i post & instead seems resigned to continue to think i'm placing blame soley on Marbury for the debacle of a season last year... i don't get how hard it is to gleen from my posts that what i'm really saying is that i wish Marbury would accept HIS SHARE of the blame for once instead of acting as if he's above the situation entirely... we'll just agree to disagree & leave it at that.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
rvhoss
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6/9/2006  4:49 PM
Looking specifically at marbs, holfresh has a point that he was not the one that brought the team down...during the winning streak, it was him that brought the team up, that led the team...injuries mess with your head, and when we lost marbs to injury, that was the season...how people handled it after the fact is where fault can be found.

But there's no doubt which players contributed to our big wins this year, Frye, Crawford, Lee and Marbury. Every memorable run has these guys involved...crawford more so after marbury went down.

Marbs is not the reason the team's morale was destroyed, our record was.
all kool aid all the time.
Bippity10
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6/9/2006  5:07 PM
See I don't blame Marbury for the season. Guys that love him can't get past that. They have a one track mind. They need to defend Marbury so much that they lash out at LB. Any criticism of Marbs means you must love LB. I dont' love either of them. I think LB did a bad job this year but he has won. I think Marbs has done a bad job and hasn't won. Marbs can help us win. Of course he has the talent to lead teams in the playoffs every year. But until he stops having excuses made for him and he actuslly accepts that even if he hates the coach he has to lead he will retire with everyone making excuses for him.

I am rooting for the guy to succeed as much as anyone here. But I can't make anymore excuses for him. There will be other Knicks. I want him to succeed but if he can't change his ways, goodbye. This is not the first time he's had a problem. I can quickly forget the past if he stops having problems here. Until then I have a hard time giving him the benefit of the doubt.

His last hurrah is Isiah. If he can't play for Isiah than I think at that point even the "Marbs lovers" would have to write him off.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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6/9/2006  5:10 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Looking specifically at marbs, holfresh has a point that he was not the one that brought the team down...during the winning streak, it was him that brought the team up, that led the team...injuries mess with your head, and when we lost marbs to injury, that was the season...how people handled it after the fact is where fault can be found.

But there's no doubt which players contributed to our big wins this year, Frye, Crawford, Lee and Marbury. Every memorable run has these guys involved...crawford more so after marbury went down.

Marbs is not the reason the team's morale was destroyed, our record was.


Big wins??????
I just hope that people will like me
knicks1248
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6/9/2006  6:31 PM
I think if people would stop classifing Steph as a pg instead of a just a guard who can play both shooting, and point, you would apprecciate him more, and utilize him better.
ES
McK1
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6/9/2006  6:34 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

I think if people would stop classifing Steph as a pg instead of a just a guard who can play both shooting, and point, you would apprecciate him more, and utilize him better.

If the blind man building the team would've held on to Frank Williams or acquired a one post Craw trade, Marbury's defeciencies on court would've been maskable
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
holfresh
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6/9/2006  6:41 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

See I don't blame Marbury for the season. Guys that love him can't get past that. They have a one track mind. They need to defend Marbury so much that they lash out at LB. Any criticism of Marbs means you must love LB. I dont' love either of them. I think LB did a bad job this year but he has won. I think Marbs has done a bad job and hasn't won. Marbs can help us win. Of course he has the talent to lead teams in the playoffs every year. But until he stops having excuses made for him and he actuslly accepts that even if he hates the coach he has to lead he will retire with everyone making excuses for him.

I am rooting for the guy to succeed as much as anyone here. But I can't make anymore excuses for him. There will be other Knicks. I want him to succeed but if he can't change his ways, goodbye. This is not the first time he's had a problem. I can quickly forget the past if he stops having problems here. Until then I have a hard time giving him the benefit of the doubt.

His last hurrah is Isiah. If he can't play for Isiah than I think at that point even the "Marbs lovers" would have to write him off.



My problem with both of your arguments are you think that Brown and Marbs are the ones to blame...You even agree that Brown may be even more accountable than Marbs for last year's debacle...But Marbs should be the one shipped out of town and Larry gets to continue coaching...
It's not a matter of a one track mind...It's a matter of holding the people accountable responsible...

For the record...I didn't call you a Larry Lover that time either...But I'm beginning to think you like that label...
knicks1248
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6/9/2006  6:41 PM
His defeciencies at the point are no worse then 85 pct of the pgs in this league, the only reason his are magnifide is because of his massive scoring abilty makes him look like a selfish player.
ES
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