If Detroit never got Sheed they don't win the championship that yr. Carlisle didn't have Sheed so you can't compare. Truthfully I can't see Carlisle doing the job Brown did reguardless.

Lakers should have really won it, but Kobe & Shaq beefing in house tore them apart in the end. LA was able to get past the Spurs that yr because they hate them. They were able to put it behind them for that series. If Detroit faced the Spurs in the championship that yr they would have lost just like they did the yr after. Nothing against Larry Brown that just the way I see it.

Francis was never brought here to bring us to the top. He was brought here becasue he was able to be had for Penny & Ariza with the plan that they could retrade him for more later on. Thats the way you got to look at it. Isiah can't be judged on how he fits and what he does for us. Isiah has to be judged on what Francis ends up getting us if anything at all.

Francis fallout in Orlando happend when they traded Mobley away.

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

If Detroit never got Sheed they don't win the championship that yr. Carlisle didn't have Sheed so you can't compare. Truthfully I can't see Carlisle doing the job Brown did reguardless.

Lakers should have really won it, but Kobe & Shaq beefing in house tore them apart in the end. LA was able to get past the Spurs that yr because they hate them. They were able to put it behind them for that series. If Detroit faced the Spurs in the championship that yr they would have lost just like they did the yr after. Nothing against Larry Brown that just the way I see it.

Francis was never brought here to bring us to the top. He was brought here becasue he was able to be had for Penny & Ariza with the plan that they could retrade him for more later on. Thats the way you got to look at it. Isiah can't be judged on how he fits and what he does for us. Isiah has to be judged on what Francis ends up getting us if anything at all.

Francis fallout in Orlando happend when they traded Mobley away.

ny - at what point do we just stop collecting "assets" and actually start building a team?

I don't know. Im just commenting on whats going on. I think Isiah really tried to build a team last offseason. Then after the season started going down the tube he decided to collect assets in the draft pick for Rose & Francis. Was he correct in doing so? I don't know, only time will tell.

He hired Brown because Brown was a proven winner and thought Brown would be able to be the big name coach that brings the players he collected to the playoffs. Which Brown could have done. BUT Brown wants to win and win his way because he feels/knows that his way could win a championship. The players don't fit his plan and because of the poor season all there value is shot. So now its almost impossible to trade for Browns players without adding a lot more salary. Which is probably why there are looking to dump Brown and put Isiah in his place. In order to truley build under Brown they both have to commit to each other and build throught the draft while riding/buying out the contracts they don't want. And Brown has to show that he will be here for the long haul to teach the young guys brought in.

First things first they have to make a decision on Brown.

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 06-02-2006 10:04 PM]

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 06-02-2006 10:05 PM]

I saw a program on ESPN the other day on francis, the guy had a life of trouble, got kicked off the HS team as a sophmore and never played another HS game for that school.. I was like WTF?

Francis is like marbury, an overblown inflated sense of self worth..

Posted by newyorknewyork:
A consistant 9man rotation of Marbury-Crawford-Nate-Richardson-Lee-Davis-Taylor-Curry-Frye. Should have been used from the door.

yea, and we'd have neeever heard that Ariza, Woods or Butler were being "Darkoed." What about all the people who through Ariza should be starting? And I'm not convinced that Woods ISN'T out BEST SF. I'm also not convinced that we were better with Curry than freaking Butler, who at least has a bball IQ, and can pass, defend and rebound.

I'm pretty sure if we had a sucky season with those guys buried it would not have been considered the better alternative. this way everyone got a look and got a chance.

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by newyorknewyork:
A consistant 9man rotation of Marbury-Crawford-Nate-Richardson-Lee-Davis-Taylor-Curry-Frye. Should have been used from the door.

yea, and we'd have neeever heard that Ariza, Woods or Butler were being "Darkoed." What about all the people who through Ariza should be starting? And I'm not convinced that Woods ISN'T out BEST SF. I'm also not convinced that we were better with Curry than freaking Butler, who at least has a bball IQ, and can pass, defend and rebound.

I'm pretty sure if we had a sucky season with those guys buried it would not have been considered the better alternative. this way everyone got a look and got a chance.

Butler can defend?

Guess you've never seen Curry....

Posted by newyorknewyork:

Woods wasn't on the team at that time.

What difference does it make? Barnes was playing well, so he got the nod. Woods eventually earned the minutes. SF just happened to be the position with the most flux.

Don't forget, Lee played PF in college but brown had been trying to fit him into the SF role, primarily so he wont get buried behind Frye at PF. Lee has too lose weight, learn the position defensively and develop a stroke. It takes time and while he may eventually be able to do it (whatever doing it entails) it doesn't mean he'll do it better than someone more naturally suited for the position, like Woods.

Ariza was in a similar situation. A good SF should not only have a stroke, which Ariza didn't, but he should also be able to put the ball on the floor and get his own shot. Ariza struggled with his handle and offensive creativity anywhere but in the open court.

I like both Ariza and Lee, but I think Woods was more versatile. He can play half-court or open court. I think he was also a better overall defender than Ariza (except for steals) and a better perimeter defender than Lee, while Lee, with his tweener build and PFs skills, was stronger in the post.

When he was brought in he should have taken over Taylor's mins while Lee played more PF.

Lets remember that early on Taylor was one of our most improved defenders. i can't remember another knick outside of perhaps Malik taking more charges. He also has a good midrange jumper, which nobody in the frountcourt offered outside of Frye.

People love to hate Mo (he is a black hole) but he performed some functions we needed.

Butler would get burn when Curry gets in foul trouble.

Which was frequent. Or when he disappeared, which was frequent.

Ariza would get burn depending on matchups and depending on the health of Richardson.

which is what occurred, as well as vying for the SF role.

If that was the consistent through out the season a lot more would have been revealed and a lot more would have been accomplished and a lot more growth would have happened this past season.

Maybe, but they allowed for competition at certain positions and then the injuries and roster turnovers added to the inconsistencies.

NYNY, i wasn't on this board during the off-season, but I think you'll remember on realgm all the people trying to figure out isiah acquisitions and surmising we'd have a starting half-court rotation consisting of something like Marbury, Q, Malik, AD, Curry with a defensive/running second unit of something like Nate, JC, Ariza, Lee, Frye, and how we could play different ways against different teams and matchups.

I noted that was because we didn't have enough two-way players and it would be awkward playing 10 deep, but if it were up to me I'd just go with the second unit cause they'd give better effort and I'd rather have the D. Back then that was considered an extreme sentiment that could only come from the most deranged of Isiah's haters cause surely that starting unit was comprised of our premium players and was built for the post season. And things only got complicated after trades.

But now, since so many of those second unit guys outplayed our presupposed starters it's said that Brown should have known exactly what to do right from the get go. And as if LB wouldn't have taken a lot of heat from Isiah and Dolan if he wanted to bench so many exorbitantly paid veterans from the get-go. Had he done that and still failed he'd still be accused of trying to undermine Isiah for not playing his "best" players.

Lets be honest here. The real problem wasn't who got how many minutes, it was that we didn't win. Had we won everything would have made sense. Since we didn't win nothing makes sense.

That said, with guys like Frye (while missing 20 games) and Nate among our top 5 minute getters I don't see how people can claim Larry wasn't fair. I'd have liked to see more Lee too, but he had to beat out several guys also capable of playing that SF position: Malik, Mo, Ariza, Barnes, Woods, Jalen. Six guys who can play the position and none clearly better than the others.

Same can be said of several positions and that was part of the problem:

PG: Marbury, Nate, JC, Francis
SG: Marbury, Nate, JC, Francis, Q
PF: Frye, Curry (remember the twin-tower theory where we'd start James at center?) AD, Malik, Lee, Mo

And so it went...