[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Why couldn't we play uptempo??
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 2 of 10 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4 Next ›Last »
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
McK1
Posts: 26527
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/16/2005
Member: #964
5/25/2006  8:48 AM
Posted by Marv:

^ Wasn't it reasonable in August to anticipate that Brown would adapt to his roster and work with them better than he did?

And more importantly at the moment, is it reasonable to anticipate that Brown will adapt better this year with a year of horror-show under his belt, and work with them better than he did this past year?

1) after coming from Detroit - NO.

2) depends on how much this whole situation undermines his authority in the lockerroom. this is stupid. Croce let both sides know neither entity is going anywhere - they are joined at the hip. He threw the Iverson posse out of his arena and told Brown he has his guys + AI, now STFU and go coach.
Dolan thinks he is proving a point. You leave Steph on the team unchecked in this situation and its another lame duck coach


Best bet may be to get Browns input on the draft then give him his 40 mill. Isiah may not need help spotting talent but he sure as hell needs help spotting what will translate.

Thats where Brown helps.

wings who hawk the ball

bigs who set solid screens & have a feel for what the D is giving them

guys big or small who can play the ball in flight or off the rim

are innate things Isiah misses that Larry Brown won't

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-25-2006 08:49 AM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
AUTOADVERT
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
5/25/2006  8:58 AM
>>Best bet may be to get Browns input on the draft then give him his 40 mill. Isiah may not need help spotting talent but he sure as hell needs help spotting what will translate.

That does not make sense. What will translate? You mean like Marcus Camby and McGrady "translate"?

>>Thats where Brown helps.

Brown has been passed by a game that is being revolutionized back to the days of The ABA. He helps by getting out of the way. In the immortal words of Red Holzman, "on offense you do what you want... on defense - you do what I want"

>>wings who hawk the ball

"Hawk" the ball? Oh, a ballhawk! NOW, I get it! Hold up... what's a ballhawk?

>>bigs who set solid screens & have a feel for what the D is giving them

Ha. What the D is "giving" them? Oh, you mean like, "I need my space"? That's NEVER a good thing when your girlfriend sez that.

>>guys big or small who can play the ball in flight or off the rim

"Play the ball in flight"? Hold UP. Are you talking about an intuitive (Rodman) or analytical (Paul Silas) understanding of rebounding angles?

(SFX: Buzzzzz!!!!)

Play the ball in flight has me stumped. I pass to the next contestant.

>>are innate things Isiah misses that Larry Brown....

Innate things?

Did you really say innate?
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
5/25/2006  8:59 AM
Innate things?

Oh NOW I get it!

You mean like things that Nate does?

I like Nate
once a knick always a knick
McK1
Posts: 26527
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/16/2005
Member: #964
5/25/2006  9:04 AM
Are you talking in barbershop again?

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
5/25/2006  9:14 AM
>>Are you talking in barbershop again?

Can't you tell the difference mcK1?

(For the compreshension impaired I'll "sign" the next words)

Just plain English this time. The random abuse of vocabulary irks me.
once a knick always a knick
McK1
Posts: 26527
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/16/2005
Member: #964
5/25/2006  9:23 AM
game passing someone by:

signing Jerome James to play center for the next 5 years in what is becoming an international game flavored NBA

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-25-2006 09:23 AM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024
5/25/2006  9:39 AM
I have no problem with us playing at the tempo of the 6 game win streak. That's about the tempo we started the season at too. It wasn't a fast tempo, just peppy and energetic. It came one game after one of our most sluggish performances of the season when Marbury dogged it in Orlando. The biggest turnabout in the two games was not tempo but effort and leadership from marbury. That's what was lacking all season, and no 'system' can work when your best players are dogging it.

So it's not like I don't think we could do just as well with an increased tempo, it's that I think it's moot relative to issues of effort and commitment. Tempo is not a cure all for our ills. We'd do much better in a slow system with effort than a fast one without, and vice versa.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 05-25-2006 09:42 AM]
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081
5/25/2006  2:03 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:

because we dont defend and our PG likes to score in the halfcourt...

Exactly. The Knicks don't have the 2 key ingredients required to play uptempo. Uptempo plays STARTS with defense, slice it anyway you want, it starts with defense. Secondly, uptempo offense requires PASSING the ball and Marbury is not a passing PG, say whatever you want about 8apg, he's not a passing PG. Besides, Marbury had the chance to play uptempo in Phoenix under D'Antoni and didn't like the system so he was gone. That looks like a great career move.



Dallas plays uptempo and is not great defensively nor do they have a pass first point gurad...Marbs is a better passer than their point guard but it works for Dallas...
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
5/25/2006  2:05 PM
Dallas does have Dirk, who improved his defense dramatically this year. Avery Johnson has been a godsend for that team.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024
5/25/2006  2:14 PM
yeah take dirk off the mavs and you'd have something like the knicks, and like the knicks no one would really care what little system they were running cause they'd be perennial also-rans.
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
5/25/2006  2:21 PM
It amazes me how many people still think we are just the "right" coach away, and the "right" system away from being a good team.
I just hope that people will like me
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
5/25/2006  2:37 PM
we're actually 3 in shape players away from being a good team:
QRich, Jerome James and Eddy Curry.

We're just mad that LB didn't run them into shape like other teams do, if you show up out of shape AND play a slow it down offense, you end the season out of shape.

I still don't understand how QRich showed up with all that flab on his biceps and triceps...my only guess is that in phoenix he did the same thing and was run into shape.

jerome james (as my nephew points out) was GROSSLY out of shape this year compared to last year and that was just bulldookey.

Eddy Curry's shape is well documented.

Heck, MoT had flabby biceps/triceps as well and we all remember the pic from this summer when marbs had man boobs.

I think the optimism of LB, great draft and the new playoff tested veterans had everyone thinking that the playoffs were ready made...so they got fat.

I think a healthy off season is just what this team needs...some of us are still pissed that Reezy got bitch slapped by LB.

But Coach, we're thinking more of why we had a system not fitted to the personel and when the system failed it's get rid of the 1/3 rd of the roster and not simply change the system.

That's all we're wondering, nothing about being the "right" coach away...it's like you expecting that if the players play the "right" way they will be a good team...the right way is not fast breaking off makes, or having a 7 foot SF, or playing a skinny high school kid at center or having everybody stand outside the arc awaiting penetration off the pick and roll and launching 30 3's a game.

that's not playing the "right way" but hey, it wins games and gets to the conference finals.

So...

It amazes me how many people still think we are just 5 players away from being a good team with the same coach and system.

There is a reason NFL teams don't play wishbone offenses, times have changed so the coaches have changed with them...

it's time for LB to do the same. and if he can't, then we have the wrong coach.
all kool aid all the time.
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081
5/25/2006  2:56 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

we're actually 3 in shape players away from being a good team:
QRich, Jerome James and Eddy Curry.

We're just mad that LB didn't run them into shape like other teams do, if you show up out of shape AND play a slow it down offense, you end the season out of shape.

I still don't understand how QRich showed up with all that flab on his biceps and triceps...my only guess is that in phoenix he did the same thing and was run into shape.

jerome james (as my nephew points out) was GROSSLY out of shape this year compared to last year and that was just bulldookey.

Eddy Curry's shape is well documented.

Heck, MoT had flabby biceps/triceps as well and we all remember the pic from this summer when marbs had man boobs.

I think the optimism of LB, great draft and the new playoff tested veterans had everyone thinking that the playoffs were ready made...so they got fat.

I think a healthy off season is just what this team needs...some of us are still pissed that Reezy got bitch slapped by LB.

But Coach, we're thinking more of why we had a system not fitted to the personel and when the system failed it's get rid of the 1/3 rd of the roster and not simply change the system.

That's all we're wondering, nothing about being the "right" coach away...it's like you expecting that if the players play the "right" way they will be a good team...the right way is not fast breaking off makes, or having a 7 foot SF, or playing a skinny high school kid at center or having everybody stand outside the arc awaiting penetration off the pick and roll and launching 30 3's a game.

that's not playing the "right way" but hey, it wins games and gets to the conference finals.

So...

It amazes me how many people still think we are just 5 players away from being a good team with the same coach and system.

There is a reason NFL teams don't play wishbone offenses, times have changed so the coaches have changed with them...

it's time for LB to do the same. and if he can't, then we have the wrong coach.



Well said, the idea that we trade 6 players to that does not fit a particular coaches system is just nuts...First we trade these players to get rid of them...Then we got out and try to get players that fit the coaches system...How many trades and years are we talking about here? 3 maybe 4 years...How long is this coach going to be here anyway...After all these changes, does it mean this coach will win? Does it mean the culture of the organization changed for the better as some here love to say?
I think wins trumps everything....You win some games and see the culture change immediately..You see guys play harder...And to that end, employ the system that gives us the best chance to win given the personnel....Look at Cleveland, their style of play is to have the ball in LeBron hands, which is no particular style at all...Their culture has changed because now they believe they can win and play with anyone...Same with Dallas...Wins trumps everything....



[Edited by - holfresh on 05-25-2006 2:57 PM]
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
5/25/2006  3:03 PM
If I hear "play the right way" again I'll lose my mind...it's an overrated statement that some of you latched onto because you thought we'd be competitive this year...Detroit was playing the right way before larry.

If he can't get us to play the right way, he stinks as a "coach", because isn't that what a "Coach" is supposed to do...effing Coach.

Hey Bip, I know you keep saying over and over you are a coach, but you seem to have forgotten what a coaches JOB is...

If you need a refresher, please re-see the following movies:

Bad News Bears (larry was buttermaker when he was drunk)
Remember the Titans (modified personell and won the big game without their best player)
Hoosiers (everyone get's kicked off the team they still win)
The Fish that Saved Pittsburgh (worst cast of misfits of all times)

those are coaches...larry brown sucked as a coach.
all kool aid all the time.
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
5/25/2006  3:09 PM
you guys crack me up... we cant hold on to the ball in a slow offense, and you want to speed it up? We dont have one guy that dominates the defensive glass. We dont have a PG that grabs 7 boards a game and immediatly pushes the ball up court.

Just because you have a few guys that can dunk in transition doesnt mean you should be a running team.

Plus... these guys dont play the right way
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
Posts: 41010
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 1/12/2005
Member: #848
USA
5/25/2006  3:11 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:

because we dont defend and our PG likes to score in the halfcourt...

Exactly. The Knicks don't have the 2 key ingredients required to play uptempo. Uptempo plays STARTS with defense, slice it anyway you want, it starts with defense. Secondly, uptempo offense requires PASSING the ball and Marbury is not a passing PG, say whatever you want about 8apg, he's not a passing PG. Besides, Marbury had the chance to play uptempo in Phoenix under D'Antoni and didn't like the system so he was gone. That looks like a great career move.



Dallas plays uptempo and is not great defensively nor do they have a pass first point gurad...Marbs is a better passer than their point guard but it works for Dallas...




Actually, Dallas was a pretty damn good defensive team this year. They were 10th in the league this year in Points Allowed, which is pretty good, they also outblocked and outstole their oppenents, unlike the Knicks who were killed in both categories, again pretty good defense by the Mavs. The key with the Mavs is that players took TURNS bringing the ball up the floor and everyone got touches on offense. Whether Terry, Devin Harris, Marquis Daniels or Josh Howard brought the ball up it didn't matter. There are no players on that team demanding they get their 8 assists per game.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 05-25-2006 3:13 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081
5/25/2006  3:15 PM
Posted by fishmike:

you guys crack me up... we cant hold on to the ball in a slow offense, and you want to speed it up? We dont have one guy that dominates the defensive glass. We dont have a PG that grabs 7 boards a game and immediatly pushes the ball up court.

Just because you have a few guys that can dunk in transition doesnt mean you should be a running team.

Plus... these guys dont play the right way



Uptempo doesn't mean running...Dallas plays uptempo but is not a running team...Huge difference...Part of the problem of the turnovers with the Knicks is that they are trying to make 5 to 6 passes every possession...
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081
5/25/2006  3:17 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:

because we dont defend and our PG likes to score in the halfcourt...

Exactly. The Knicks don't have the 2 key ingredients required to play uptempo. Uptempo plays STARTS with defense, slice it anyway you want, it starts with defense. Secondly, uptempo offense requires PASSING the ball and Marbury is not a passing PG, say whatever you want about 8apg, he's not a passing PG. Besides, Marbury had the chance to play uptempo in Phoenix under D'Antoni and didn't like the system so he was gone. That looks like a great career move.



Dallas plays uptempo and is not great defensively nor do they have a pass first point gurad...Marbs is a better passer than their point guard but it works for Dallas...




Actually, Dallas was a pretty damn good defensive team this year. They were 10th in the league this year in Points Allowed, which is pretty good, they also outblocked and outstole their oppenents, unlike the Knicks who were killed in both categories, again pretty good defense by the Mavs. The key with the Mavs is that players took TURNS bringing the ball up the floor and everyone got touches on offense. Whether Terry, Devin Harris, Marquis Daniels or Josh Howard brought the ball up it didn't matter. There are no players on that team demanding they get their 8 assists per game.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 05-25-2006 3:13 PM]



So now you are faulting Marbs for trying to get at least 8 assist per game, this is a new twist...
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
5/25/2006  3:21 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:

because we dont defend and our PG likes to score in the halfcourt...

Exactly. The Knicks don't have the 2 key ingredients required to play uptempo. Uptempo plays STARTS with defense, slice it anyway you want, it starts with defense. Secondly, uptempo offense requires PASSING the ball and Marbury is not a passing PG, say whatever you want about 8apg, he's not a passing PG. Besides, Marbury had the chance to play uptempo in Phoenix under D'Antoni and didn't like the system so he was gone. That looks like a great career move.



Dallas plays uptempo and is not great defensively nor do they have a pass first point gurad...Marbs is a better passer than their point guard but it works for Dallas...




Actually, Dallas was a pretty damn good defensive team this year. They were 10th in the league this year in Points Allowed, which is pretty good, they also outblocked and outstole their oppenents, unlike the Knicks who were killed in both categories, again pretty good defense by the Mavs. The key with the Mavs is that players took TURNS bringing the ball up the floor and everyone got touches on offense. Whether Terry, Devin Harris, Marquis Daniels or Josh Howard brought the ball up it didn't matter. There are no players on that team demanding they get their 8 assists per game.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 05-25-2006 3:13 PM]

Knicks transition D suffer because Brown had his guards and forwards crash the board. This is where Fish is right, the bigs on this team must do a better job at rebounding. A solid offensive rebounder helps out here.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
5/25/2006  3:24 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:

you guys crack me up... we cant hold on to the ball in a slow offense, and you want to speed it up? We dont have one guy that dominates the defensive glass. We dont have a PG that grabs 7 boards a game and immediatly pushes the ball up court.

Just because you have a few guys that can dunk in transition doesnt mean you should be a running team.

Plus... these guys dont play the right way



Uptempo doesn't mean running...Dallas plays uptempo but is not a running team...Huge difference...Part of the problem of the turnovers with the Knicks is that they are trying to make 5 to 6 passes every possession...


to get into transition, you must play defense. which means either stealing the ball in passing lanes, forcing missed shots and grabbing rebounds, and use help defense to create turnovers. the pistons had countless # of dunks and fastbreak opportunities the last 2 years under brown. the suns have a system and have the personnel to execute it. i would say there would be 4 guys on our team that could play with them. crawford, nate, lee, and frye. and none of them would start for them. we are fundamentally flawed. alot of our players are not sure how to make an entry pass. alot of our guys don't know how to box out and defend. those "fundamentals" must be instilled first before anything else. we are really at ground zero here. dallas without dirk ain't sh t. neither is pheonix without nash or marion. we don't have that level of player here. we have alot of young guys that have a long long long way to go. and our vets stink. steph can play but he's a headcase. then you got malik, mo, and jerome. francis and rose came in midstream. what do we really have to work with to win on a consistent basis? that's why it's more important to develop the players and concentrate on defense and be controlled now...then let them gradually expand their games. lb wasn't calling every play from day one. he had to take the reigns when the offense wasn't being run and we were turning the ball over every other play.

i'm just afraid that the mutiny was so powerful and the blame game in full effect that unless the team gives lb the FULL thumbs up (like bip said), he will be coaching on eggshells again.

van gundy on an interview today with stephen a. said that the knicks had too many similar players so that can cause unsettlement in the rotations. ultimately, steph, francis, jamal, and nate are very similar guys. and when they're your best players and they all do the same things (which is be effective with the ball in their hands), how can we really play any system other than iso and pick and pop?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-25-2006 3:28 PM]
Page 2 of 10 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4 Next ›Last »
« Reply To Topic
Why couldn't we play uptempo??
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy