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EnySpree
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5/11/2006  11:51 AM
Posted by bigbeast:

First off, its not just the players, its not just the coach or GM, its the Whole Freaking Organization!

If Brown wants to remove everything Isiah, cool, aslong as he removes himself aswell.

Brown is a dinosaur who can't adapt or adjust to a new environment or system.

BTW, I want to see the Knicks win a championship to, but its been over 20 yrs since the Knicks won one, and the odds are it'll be another 20 yrs before we see another one.

Knock Isiah and Marbury all you want but Grunfeld, Checketts, Van Gundy, Riley, Ewing, Sprewell, King, Houston ETC also failed to deleiver us a parade down madison ave aswell.

They gave us some great seasons but if your cirteria is to win championships, then they all failed..........

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djsunyc
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5/11/2006  12:03 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

First off, its not just the players, its not just the coach or GM, its the Whole Freaking Organization!

If Brown wants to remove everything Isiah, cool, aslong as he removes himself aswell.

Brown is a dinosaur who can't adapt or adjust to a new environment or system.

BTW, I want to see the Knicks win a championship to, but its been over 20 yrs since the Knicks won one, and the odds are it'll be another 20 yrs before we see another one.

Knock Isiah and Marbury all you want but Grunfeld, Checketts, Van Gundy, Riley, Ewing, Sprewell, King, Houston ETC also failed to deleiver us a parade down madison ave aswell.

They gave us some great seasons but if your cirteria is to win championships, then they all failed..........

dude, only a handful of teams win championships. all you can hope for is to be in the hunt. a few lucky breaks and you get a ring.

failure is spending hundreds of millions and not breaking .500. failure is giving up shots at possibly drafting a franchise talent. failure is handcuffing yourself to the point where all you can take back are more problems. failure is not having a freakin' plan.

DO NOT COMPARE isiah and marbury with checketts, riley, ewing, etc. those guys were professionals.

the criteria is having a plan and sticking to it. there is no plan. but with lb here, there's some credibility. amazing...absolutely amazing the lack of faith in him. not once does he get the benefit of the doubt here, not once.

this "new enviroment", this new "system" you speak of....BLOWS. that's why he was brought here in the first place.

when you perform an enema, you gotta shove a tube up your ass and clean it out. right now, we're in the clean out process b/c there ain't nothing but sh t here.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-11-2006 12:03 PM]
Bippity10
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5/11/2006  12:31 PM
Yeah our 35 win seasons have done nothing but blind fans to how bad things really are here in NY. This record was the best thing that has happened to us in a while. It marked a turnaround. There is no where else to go from this point. The front office has to change it's ways or else there will be a purging because there is no choice.

What I find sad is how many fans had begun to settle for 38-45 wins with little hope for a future. Yes with a better coaching job we could have accomplished a middle 30 win coaching job. Guess what would have happened. We would have immediately turned around and dumped some young guys in the hope of signing another flawed player in the hope that he would turn us around. For once(whether you liked his performance or not) we finally have a coach who has decided to set a standard(whether it is successful or not) and stick to it. The players are no longer in charge. Something I've been preaching for 7 years. It's finally starting to happen. Sadly very few of us know that this is a good thing.
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Bippity10
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5/11/2006  12:35 PM
We have been a laughingstock since at least 2000 and yet fans think it started this year
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Bippity10
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5/11/2006  12:40 PM
TMS I don't think anyone was a big Chaney fan. I didn't like the guy at all. Btu you do remember me supporting him. Why? Because back then I was one of the few who recognized that we had taken the power away from our coach and had given it to the players. He was impotent and had no chance of being successful. Spree and the "whisperers" were running the show and it's been the same ever since.

The point that was being made is a very valid one. The team with Chaney was the last team we've had that consistently played hard. Chaney was an awful coach and yet the team still played hard. This should tell the fans that always go the easy route and blame or give credit to the coach when a team plays well. It ain't the coach. The reason that team played hard had very little to do with Chaney. They played hard because the names were KT, Spoon, Charlie, Allan, spree, Othella, Shandon. All guys that have played hard for EVERY COACH that they have ever played for. This year's team is the exact opposite. Can't name more than 5 guys on the roster who had strong work ethics. We could not let that go in order to win 40 games. We could not placate and play to their talents. We had to teach them to PLAY HARD EVERY MOMENT, DO AS THE COACH SAYS OR WATCH IT IMPLODE.

THERE WAS NO OTHER CHOICE. MORE OF THE SAME WAS NOT AN OPTION(TMS the bold was not directed at you, I know you know this.)

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 05-11-2006 12:41 PM]
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holfresh
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5/11/2006  12:42 PM
Much as most of you will try to twist most of what really went down this year, I do remember what actually happened...What we have occuring in this forum is call revisionist history...Most of you are trying to contort the results of the past season to suit what you want to happen...This past season was not about Marbury running the offense or JJ being out of shape or the aquisition of Jalen or Francis late in the game...This season was about Brown implementing his system and he failed miserably...He has shown throughout his career he cannot adapt well to different situations...So most here are trying to pin his big flop on the players, much like Larry and the media tried to pin the blame of the Olympics on the players...But those Olympians got the opportunity to go back to their teams and show how hard they can play when given the chance....Larry needed to adapt and he didn't..Now you all feel you have to defend him and blame others...But I just want you to know I payed attention and saw what really happened...

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-11-2006 12:43 PM]
TMS
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5/11/2006  12:49 PM
Bip, i know what you're saying & i basically agree w/u... in the end it lies on the players to decide for themselves whether or not they're going to play hard, regardless of who's coaching them... but i have always said some accountability must rest on the coaches as well... they can't be fully excused from how their teams play, that includes LB this year as well (as i'm sure most on this board would agree)... i simply give LB more of a pass because of his past history of success... Chaney didn't deserve any benefit of the doubt in my eyes... to me, he was a clueless coach w/zero clout... not a guy that would hold his players to task for the way they played, & that was the only thing i wanted out of him... at least LB is holding players accountable for their lack of effort... great coaches do that... that's a start in the positive direction for me... i'm giving him til next season to show me he can get these guys playing the brand of basketball he wants them to play, but the point about having the right type of players to buy into it is perfectly valid... we need to get rid of the lazy underachievers once & for all, & replace them w/guys who will go to battle for their coach & take pride in the uniform they're wearing.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bippity10
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5/11/2006  12:51 PM
Once again Holfresh your anger keeps you from seeing the forest through the trees. There are at least three posts on here that say that LB did not do a good job. I even said we could have won more games with a better coaching job. Several times it's been mentioned that we could win more with a different coach.

But Holfresh you fail to see that even before this season it isn't about the coach. It's how the organization does things. For 7 years we've won 35 games and then been optimistic thinking we were one player away from turning it all around. I've been calling it the "savior principal" forever. Since you haven't posted with me all this time you think I'm using revisionist history, when I've said this was going to happen forever. 35 wins was a disguise. This season has been coming forever. It doesn't matter if LB is/was or will be the coach. This had to happen. Now finally we can think about change. We now know officially that no coach or player can "fix" us. We now know we have to build. It's not about LB, it's about the Knicks. Don't give a rats asse about LB. But when this happened many are searching for a person to blame because they didn't see it coming. But those that saw it coming are not surprised.

You have been watching the worst organization in the history of sports for the past 7 years. YOu have bought what they told you. You bought that LB was a savior. You bought that Marbs was a savior. Now we all know that we need to build.
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Bippity10
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5/11/2006  12:55 PM
TMS I agree with everything you said if we were in a normal situation. But we are not. WE have created such a losing atmosphere here. We have created such an atmosphere that the players are in charge. We have created an atmosphere in which players did not have to make winning plays in order to get paid. It's such a prevailing attitude here that we cannot look at our situation as normal. No coach tthat comes here has a chance until we change and destroy this nonsense. LB may or may not be the answer to a championship. But guess what. Things are definitely changing. That makes me happy.
I just hope that people will like me
gunsnewing
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5/11/2006  1:08 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

TMS I agree with everything you said if we were in a normal situation. But we are not. WE have created such a losing atmosphere here. We have created such an atmosphere that the players are in charge. We have created an atmosphere in which players did not have to make winning plays in order to get paid. It's such a prevailing attitude here that we cannot look at our situation as normal. No coach tthat comes here has a chance until we change and destroy this nonsense. LB may or may not be the answer to a championship. But guess what. Things are definitely changing. That makes me happy.


well said..it brings a smile too my face too
holfresh
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5/11/2006  1:09 PM


Bip I agree that players on this team need to change to go forward...But much like the player ar poison to the organization, Larry is poison as well..He doesn't always keep it basketball and professional...He gives the players an excuse not to do what they were ask to do...I can look at this entire bad situation and lay blame fully across the board, but ultimately the blame has to lay at the feet of the guy in charge of getting the team to play cohesively...because of his antics, I cannot hold the players entirely accountable for what happen this past year...He should be most professional of all these guys...You are kidding yourself if you think much will change too...Most of these guys will be back here again next year...So the celebration of a few of you is baffling...What really needs to be done won't be done...We need to break down this organization and build from scratch...Isiah started the process with the Kids but Brown has changed that entirely...So the thing you celebrate is essentially the root of the problem...
Bippity10
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5/11/2006  1:36 PM
Holfresh how much do you think LB has changed from the past two years to this year. Not much. Yet he went from two title appearances in a row to a 23 win seasons. The NBA is a players league. And if you have players that win 35 games one year and then rebel against a HOF coach the next than you probably need to change the players.

The point is that we have been changing coach's pretty much every year for the past 7 years and yet nothing has changed. Now it's time to stop. LB is a capable coach. Whether he is the "answer" or the "solution" or the key to our turnaround is immaterial. We needed to first get a credible coach. We have done that. A disciplinarian was essential. Now we need to bring in players that are professionals so that we can change the atmosphere here.

What you fail to see is that noone is celebrating. You are so angry that you refuse to see that noone is happy with anyone associated with this organization. You keep thinking people are happy with anyone in the organization. Where does this come from? We won 23 games. Who is giving anyone credit for anything? The only thing I'm happy about is that those changes that you and I both want are finally out in the open. It's finally clear that changes to the ORGANIZATION(not necessarily firing anybody and everybody) hav to be made. If we had won 35 games you would already have seen more of the same. Everyone is exposed now. Changes HAVE TO BE MADE.

I said in 1999 that the finals run was the worst thing to happen to the organization(not the fans, but the organization). People who posted with me a few years ago remember me saying this. Why because it placed the players in charge and gave the organization the notion that all we needed was to be good enough to make the playoffs and then ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. Fans starting thinking championships were luck and not hard work and effort. And now we spend every year hoping we can get lucky and bring in the "right coach" or the "savior player" to turn us around. NOw that nonsense is finally changing. And it's changing because we finally got away from a the 35 win "disguise" that I have been screaming about forever!!!!!!!!!!!
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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5/11/2006  1:38 PM
This season was tough for us, but It was the best thing that has happened to us in 7 years. Mediocrity is not a good thing.
I just hope that people will like me
Allanfan20
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5/11/2006  1:45 PM
If we had that draft pick, people on this site would be celebrating.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
SlimPack
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5/11/2006  1:48 PM
how is getting 35 wins a disguise? winning 35 games is bad bippity. are you saying that it is disguised as something good? who viewed wnning 35 games as something good?

anyway Im pretty sure that we could have won more than 35 games this year if we had a good coach. but moving on, One thing that I am certain of is that if we do bring in larry brown type players and he coaches the way he did this season, we wont win more than 25 or so games regardless. also Im not even sure who we could bring in that would tolerate larry's BS, and still play effective basketball. even the pistons are better off without larry, (possibly becuase someone in the starting lineup found out that larry wanted to trade him). what team is closer to being a LB type team than them? so at this point Im not sure who in the nba we could bring in that would be better with larry.

[Edited by - slimpack on 05-11-2006 1:49 PM]
oohah
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5/11/2006  1:50 PM
And it's changing because we finally got away from a the 35 win "disguise" that I have been screaming about forever!!!!!!!!!!!

So when LB leads the team to about 35 wins, I guess you won't be happy? Or will they magically be transformed into a "good 35" because it is LB?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
SlimPack
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5/11/2006  1:51 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

This season was tough for us, but It was the best thing that has happened to us in 7 years. Mediocrity is not a good thing.

If what your saying is that we should rebuild buy getting under the cap, and acquiring high draft picks, then I agree with you. but you do realize that, that will never happen with larry as coach right?
Bippity10
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5/11/2006  1:54 PM
Were we better without Larry?

The only reason why anyone on this board thinks we were is because of exactly what I'm talking about, the "35 win disguise". We have been a laughingstock for 7 years but in the past because we almost made the playoffs we could at least talk trash to our friends a little as the season went on. this year we sucked all year so there was no disguise. It was all out in the open. Management can't go out and sign Dice Junior and sell us a line of garbage that things were turning around. That is the disguise that 90% on this board have fallen for but won't admit it. The disguise is Dice, Marbury, TT, Francis, LB. Those guys are the disguise. The optimism after every trade shows that 90% fall for it they just won't admit it.
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holfresh
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5/11/2006  1:54 PM


Bip, if you belive what you are actually saying, then surely Larry Brown is not the right guy for this job...he will continue to bring in retreads in here to perpetuate the status quo...See Steve Francis and Jalen Rose....You keep saying my hate...This thing needs to be broken down entirely to achieve what you say you want....Larry can's be expected to change that by himself...If anything, Isiah might have done more towards that than anyone by brining in young players who can be molded....Marbs of course is not a good example of that...But who is perfect in this organization....So it you think Larry will do it by his tactics, you are fooling yourself...The Knicks don't currently have the infrastructure to hold up after Larry gets all he wants...Detroit had the infrastructure with Dumars, Davidson and the players...Larry was one of many....If Larry gets his way, he will only prolong what really needs to be done here until he leaves...If this past season didn't show you that, I don't know what will....
Bippity10
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5/11/2006  1:56 PM
Posted by oohah:
And it's changing because we finally got away from a the 35 win "disguise" that I have been screaming about forever!!!!!!!!!!!

So when LB leads the team to about 35 wins, I guess you won't be happy? Or will they magically be transformed into a "good 35" because it is LB?

oohah

No that's just your assumption of what you think I will feel and has nothing to do with me.

I will be happy to see a future. Record is unimportant.
I just hope that people will like me
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