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what was our style of play supposed to be?
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djsunyc
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5/10/2006  12:59 PM
i don't think he was trying to build a fast break team b/c marbury doesn't want to play that style and eddy curry wouldn't last 5 minutes. and like mck1 said, he hired lenny and then lb - neither of which are known as uptempo guys.

i think it's becoming abundantly clear that isiah really doesn't know how to build a team. you need complementing skillsets and you need some defense. we don't have either. at this point, i think all he's doing is "accumulating assets" regardless of how they fit. he really isn't building a team. he's building a roster. he's just grabbing the best individual talent he can get, regardless of the cost...and hoping for the next "starphuck". and the biggest problem is that this roster is made up of questionable characters.

we are in trouble.

anucha probably saved his job for the time being...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-10-2006 1:02 PM]
AUTOADVERT
holfresh
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5/10/2006  1:02 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
We had an advantage in that NO ONE can stay in front of our guards.

i wouldn't necessarily say advantage b/c none of our guards could stay in front of the opposing guards either.



The rules in the NBA has changed...If you notice in the playoffs, every guard gets to the hoop...everyone...Jason Kidd who is considered a good defensive player is getting torched..No guard can defend on him own in today's NBA....
TMS
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5/10/2006  1:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Mike D'Antoni ???

Marbury didnt buy into his system remember? After Penny and Steph were traded Penny said point blank "we didnt buy into his system."

Holy moley


dude, Steph doesn't buy into ANY system but his own... whatever suits him to achieve those 20 & 8 #'s he so covets works for him... i was talking about the general makeup of the team like i said... this team is made up of no defense playing, athletic guys for the most part... a system like D'Antoni runs in Phoenix seems to fit the roster is all i'm saying... i'm not saying that's the system i want to see run here...

what i don't get is when Isiah brings in low post options like Curry, Malik & Mo T, who don't really match well w/the rest of the roster, & then hires a half court oriented coach like LB & goes completely against his original plan of wanting to get young & athletic guys who can run the floor & play uptempo... this shows that he really doesn't have a plan to begin with, & is just making things up as he goes along... not a sound method of success

[Edited by - TMS on 05-10-2006 1:06 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
McK1
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5/10/2006  1:05 PM
I know most don't watch other teams during the regular season but if you watched the LA series how can you say Phoenix plays no defense?

point total is due to the pace. Guys get their hands up and work to keep their body between their man and the basket

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-10-2006 1:06 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
djsunyc
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5/10/2006  1:06 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:
We had an advantage in that NO ONE can stay in front of our guards.

i wouldn't necessarily say advantage b/c none of our guards could stay in front of the opposing guards either.



The rules in the NBA has changed...If you notice in the playoffs, every guard gets to the hoop...everyone...Jason Kidd who is considered a good defensive player is getting torched..No guard can defend on him own in today's NBA....


so then what advantage do we exactly have in the guard department? if no guard can be stopped, then what does our backcourt do to seperate itself from 70% of the league? nobody rebounds. nobody steals. nobody is a reliable jumpshooter. jkidd grabs boards and is the leader of the team. what exactly is our strength there compared to the rest of the league?
djsunyc
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5/10/2006  1:09 PM
Posted by McK1:

I know most don't watch other teams during the regular season but if you watched the LA series how can you say Phoenix plays no defense?

point total is due to the pace. Guys get their hands up and work to keep their body between their man and the basket

suns help defense is pretty impressive.
fishmike
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5/10/2006  1:09 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by fishmike:

Mike D'Antoni ???

Marbury didnt buy into his system remember? After Penny and Steph were traded Penny said point blank "we didnt buy into his system."

Holy moley


dude, Steph doesn't buy into ANY system but his own... whatever suits him to achieve those 20 & 8 #'s he so covets works for him... i was talking about the general makeup of the team like i said... this team is made up of no defense playing, athletic guys for the most part... a system like D'Antoni runs in Phoenix seems to fit the roster is all i'm saying... i'm not saying that's the system i want to see run here.
actually I was on your page. I guess my point is with these players it just doesnt matter. They are selfish me first players that put themselves before the team, and therefore themselves before winning. Marbury even said at one point "lets run." But what was the problem in Pho? Obviously Mike D is a GREAT coach. His front line is 3 small forwards, one of which we tried to sign for the minimum, and he's one 110+ games in the last two years. But Steph didnt buy into his system.

I'm so sick of this jerkoff. He's the freakin pits

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
McK1
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5/10/2006  1:13 PM
I thought he said lets not run any plays
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
holfresh
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5/10/2006  1:19 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:
We had an advantage in that NO ONE can stay in front of our guards.

i wouldn't necessarily say advantage b/c none of our guards could stay in front of the opposing guards either.



The rules in the NBA has changed...If you notice in the playoffs, every guard gets to the hoop...everyone...Jason Kidd who is considered a good defensive player is getting torched..No guard can defend on him own in today's NBA....


so then what advantage do we exactly have in the guard department? if no guard can be stopped, then what does our backcourt do to seperate itself from 70% of the league? nobody rebounds. nobody steals. nobody is a reliable jumpshooter. jkidd grabs boards and is the leader of the team. what exactly is our strength there compared to the rest of the league?



Marbs runs a great pick and roll...Frye can shoot the ball..Maybe those two guys can hook up and make some plays...Marbs can get to the hoop and kick it out very well...I would love to see him driving to the hoop more and dishing it to Lee or Q2 for a layup or dunk...Curry has uncanny quickness for a guy his size, he needs to get back here in better shape and has to get more playing time in the post...We are not a running team but we do a few open court guys that can push the pace and create opportunities offensively...we have Nate, Lee, Craw, Q2, and Marbs....Curry can get down the court when he wants to...But overall we need to play better defense...Larry plays too many guys out of position and we get killed with those matchups...Marbs playing bigger two guards...Lee playing quicker 3s...Craw playing point guards....When you have 3 guys playing different positions on the court at the same time the will be confusion...
BlueSeats
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5/10/2006  2:31 PM
Posted by TMS:
i think a guy like Mike D'Antoni would work best w/the roster we have now (no defense, run & shoot style game)... but even though that style of ball is fun to watch, the more fundamental, slow it down, defense oriented team style play will win you more titles in the long run imho.

Who on this team has demonstrated themselves effective in that offense?

Some will say Q, simply cause he was on the Suns, but all he did was shoot when open and not at a very good percentage at that.

I'd say Lee shows promise in that regard by virtue of the fact he can rebound and he runs and jumps better than he shoots.

But the brunt of our guys: Stiph, JC, Mo, Frye, Nate, Curry, James, Butler, etc really haven't demonstrated to me the kind of sure handled, quick thinking, keen passing, supreme conditioning, etc, required of good running teams.

Really I think just because our guys DON'T execute well in the low box, OR on the perimeter, it's assumed they'd be better off in an up-tempo game, (because there's nowhere else to go...) But if my memory serves me correctly we actually began the season at a quicker tempo, but unfortunately with that style we led the league in turnovers, were losing constantly, and guys like Frye and Malik were telling Brown he should slow it down to get higher percentage executions.

When running didn't work we slowed it down. When slowing it down didn't work fans wanted us to run. In either instance it's about execution, and that's something we never did well.
djsunyc
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5/10/2006  2:48 PM
steph - obvious problems
jamal - part of some of the worst bulls teams in history
nate - rookie
quentin - part of a losing team until the suns, but they didn't miss a beat with him gone
francis - obvious problems
jalen - dude has been on spring break for 5 years
lee - rookie
trevor - 2nd year player, raw
qyntel - morale issues
malik - not major but still a piece of a championship team
frye - rookie
ad - part of many winning situations but finished as a player
mo - obvious problems
eddy - part of some of the worst teams in bulls history, work ethic problems
jerome - conditioning problems
jackie - 2nd year player off the scrap heap

we have the worst collection of ego's, characters, and some of the dumbest and most selfish high priced players in nba history. i mean seriously, look at that roster. what has isiah assembled here? what was this team supposed to achieve, not only this year, but in future years? who could've galvanized this group? it's pretty surreal. we're over the cap by $70+ mil and we don't have 3 of the next 5 unprotected picks (as well as 3 second rounders). my goodness...
bobs3304
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5/10/2006  2:57 PM
we should be a fast break team.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
BlueSeats
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5/10/2006  2:58 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

steph - obvious problems
jamal - part of some of the worst bulls teams in history
nate - rookie
quentin - part of a losing team until the suns, but they didn't miss a beat with him gone
francis - obvious problems
jalen - dude has been on spring break for 5 years
lee - rookie
trevor - 2nd year player, raw
qyntel - morale issues
malik - not major but still a piece of a championship team
frye - rookie
ad - part of many winning situations but finished as a player
mo - obvious problems
eddy - part of some of the worst teams in bulls history, work ethic problems
jerome - conditioning problems
jackie - 2nd year player off the scrap heap

we have the worst collection of ego's, characters, and some of the dumbest and most selfish high priced players in nba history. i mean seriously, look at that roster. what has isiah assembled here? what was this team supposed to achieve, not only this year, but in future years? who could've galvanized this group? it's pretty surreal. we're over the cap by $70+ mil and we don't have 3 of the next 5 unprotected picks (as well as 3 second rounders). my goodness...


While Dolan said the strategy was working, he couldn't name a building block.

"I would tell you there is no untouchable player," Dolan said.

Asked who's the face of the franchise, Dolan said, "I don't know yet. It's too early. If we knew that, we'd have a better record."

And a better future. Dolan left open the possibility of buying out a player or two in the summer.

Dolan felt the February trades for Jalen Rose and Steve Francis that added $134 million in extra payroll/luxury tax fit the plan.

"As long as Steve [Mills] and Isiah can articulate why this fits in what our plans were, I'm pretty much OK," Dolan said. "Sometimes I have to gulp a little hard over the money."

Asked if the Knicks are a repository for overpaid guys no longer worth the money, Dolan said, "I'd have to agree with you on that characterization."
McK1
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5/10/2006  3:04 PM
wow!

I remember the Taylor press conference when Isiah referred to him as an ending contract in 3 years. No real verbalized plan on how they are going to utilize the player, just the contract.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
djsunyc
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5/10/2006  3:04 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

While Dolan said the strategy was working, he couldn't name a building block.

"I would tell you there is no untouchable player," Dolan said.

Asked who's the face of the franchise, Dolan said, "I don't know yet. It's too early. If we knew that, we'd have a better record."

And a better future. Dolan left open the possibility of buying out a player or two in the summer.

Dolan felt the February trades for Jalen Rose and Steve Francis that added $134 million in extra payroll/luxury tax fit the plan.

"As long as Steve [Mills] and Isiah can articulate why this fits in what our plans were, I'm pretty much OK," Dolan said. "Sometimes I have to gulp a little hard over the money."

Asked if the Knicks are a repository for overpaid guys no longer worth the money, Dolan said, "I'd have to agree with you on that characterization."

is there any doubt we're gonna go balls out for jermaine? kg? pierce? tmac? dolan's gonna need a franchise player soon to justify the spending...and stevie ain't the one.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-10-2006 3:06 PM]
nixluva
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5/10/2006  3:37 PM
Isaiah is getting killed, but really this is the 1st year of his new directions after the trade deadline last year. Forget what he did in year one that was back when we still had hope H2O would get healthy. The moves he's been making are all about a new direction and its much too early to say he lacks vision. Its obvious that IT made a complete change of direction since he traded Nazr and acquired picks. He picked up Butler, who by the way is turning out to be a decent backup Center. Isaiah had a GREAT draft last year. ALL 3 players have shown they can play well in this league and I expect they'll be better next year. Curry was a good pickup, even tho he wasn't able to really show it this year. Quentin stunk it up on offense, but he's likely to turn it back around next year and with his improved defense and good attitude he'll be a welcome part of this team.

Look things didn't workout this year, but the players who are likely to be here are capable of much more. We know some kind of move is going to happen so i'm optimistic that IT and LB will be able to get the players they need. Too many of us are down on the team and the job Isaiah has done, but you haven't looked hard enough at the events that have caused IT to make the moves he's made. This was an imperfect situation and most analysts thought it would take him 5 years to get back on track. I think he's already got this team headed in a good direction even if the record didn't indicate that this year.

We need for LB to act like he wants to coach this team and for the team to try harder to do what he asks. Isaiah needs to make these offseason moves really count and I think this team will experience a BIG turnaround next year.
Pharzeone
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5/10/2006  3:43 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BlueSeats:

While Dolan said the strategy was working, he couldn't name a building block.

"I would tell you there is no untouchable player," Dolan said.

Asked who's the face of the franchise, Dolan said, "I don't know yet. It's too early. If we knew that, we'd have a better record."

And a better future. Dolan left open the possibility of buying out a player or two in the summer.

Dolan felt the February trades for Jalen Rose and Steve Francis that added $134 million in extra payroll/luxury tax fit the plan.

"As long as Steve [Mills] and Isiah can articulate why this fits in what our plans were, I'm pretty much OK," Dolan said. "Sometimes I have to gulp a little hard over the money."

Asked if the Knicks are a repository for overpaid guys no longer worth the money, Dolan said, "I'd have to agree with you on that characterization."

is there any doubt we're gonna go balls out for jermaine? kg? pierce? tmac? dolan's gonna need a franchise player soon to justify the spending...and stevie ain't the one.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-10-2006 3:06 PM]

I can definately see how Francis fits into their plans, just by the mere fact that the Magic had alot of teams hot and bother to get him but couldn't offer the cap space that the Knicks had. Lakers are still hot for him especially after that last series but I don't know what they have left to offer the Knicks if they want to take Odom off the table. To me Rose isn't even a issue because you got a pick out of the deal and it comes off the cap next. Depends on what they do. If the Knicks do nothing with Rose or Taylor, $54,614,250 comes off the cap next season.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
oohah
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5/10/2006  3:48 PM
All of this talk trying to explain why the Knicks can't play uptempo: They make bad decisions, they don't play defense, they are unproven in that style, their rebounding, etc.

I ask you this: What style of play were they playing when they went on the 6 game streak this year? FAST! They looked like much better players in every aspect including decision making and defense. That's because they are better at that style!

Wasn't nobody talking about fool's gold or AND1 during the 6 game streak, no it was: "They are coming together".

The Knicks have excellent athletes who excel in the open floor. It is proven: Frye and Lee and Robinson come from running programs and they have looked GREAT when they are allowed to run. Crawford and Marbury are excellent finishers. Q has excelled in an uptempo game. Curry will be fine in it.

LARRY, LET THE &^%&^%&#*@*&$!! PLAY UPTEMPO!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Pharzeone
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5/10/2006  3:59 PM
Posted by oohah:

All of this talk trying to explain why the Knicks can't play uptempo: They make bad decisions, they don't play defense, they are unproven in that style, their rebounding, etc.

I ask you this: What style of play were they playing when they went on the 6 game streak this year? FAST! They looked like much better players in every aspect including decision making and defense. That's because they are better at that style!

Wasn't nobody talking about fool's gold or AND1 during the 6 game streak, no it was: "They are coming together".

The Knicks have excellent athletes who excel in the open floor. It is proven: Frye and Lee and Robinson come from running programs and they have looked GREAT when they are allowed to run. Crawford and Marbury are excellent finishers. Q has excelled in an uptempo game. Curry will be fine in it.

LARRY, LET THE &^%&^%&#*@*&$!! PLAY UPTEMPO!

oohah

Yeah, but Marbury got hurt and Craw tried to run the team the same way but it wasn't effective. I think Brown wants to play one style that fits the entire team whether one player goes down or not. The Knicks Transition Defense is horrible because everyone is trying to crash the boards instead of running back. Guarding the 3 point line seems to be a league wide problem now. I hate zone defenses. Good luck trying to get Brown to sign off on anything more up-tempo. To him up-tempo play is a reward for good defense. So who knows.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
oohah
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5/10/2006  4:08 PM
Yeah, but Marbury got hurt and Craw tried to run the team the same way but it wasn't effective. I think Brown wants to play one style that fits the entire team whether one player goes down or not. The Knicks Transition Defense is horrible because everyone is trying to crash the boards instead of running back. Guarding the 3 point line seems to be a league wide problem now. I hate zone defenses. Good luck trying to get Brown to sign off on anything more up-tempo. To him up-tempo play is a reward for good defense. So who knows.

That's because Crawford is not a point guard. He should not be running the team fast or slow.

The slowdown style fit only Antonio Davis and Rose. Curry will be fine in an uptempo game. He is much better when facing the basket. Rose2 and Francis would be fine in a faster style too.

I am not saying the Knicks would be a great team if they were allowed to play uptempo, but they would be much improved.

And while they are playing well enough to keep us from cutting our wrists, they can bolster their half-court game, get a good shooter, a true power forward. All the truly elite teams can come at you two ways.

Brown's reward by uptempo philosophy is nonsense and makes me want to rap him in the mouth...the reward is more wins!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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