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Trade involving Portland's #1
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codeunknown
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4/19/2006  1:29 PM
Posted by TMS:

he's nothing more than a marginal role player... i'd take Jackie Butler who at 20 years of age has already shown that he can be a solid NBA player & has upside to be even better any day of the week over Joel Pryzbilla, i'll tell u that much... you're way over-estimating the guy imho.

& i already addressed your trade proposal... i don't think it's realistic in the slightest... the talent differential is too great to be justified by the savings in dollars... think about what you're proposing... that an owner who wants to sell his franchise would trade away the #1 overall pick in the draft to get back expiring contracts... does that make any sense at all to you? just how does that increase the value of his franchise to a prospective buyer? take the lottery pick out of the equation & it changes things dramatically, but there's no way in hell you're going to get that pick w/that package of garbage you're giving them... sorry.

btw, the NJ/DEN example proves nothing, as Ratner only made that trade in order to clear up money to sign Richard Jefferson to a longterm mega dollars deal.


Butler over Pryzbilla? Regardless of how you rate either player, 2 and half blocks per game in 25 minutes over a season is a game changer no matter how you look at it. You're not making a strong case, just re-stating that Pryzbilla is "a marginal role player." But, as you can imagine, I need atleast one reason why. Is Ben Wallace a marginal role player? Obviously, Joel isn't as good as Ben but you should be able to grasp the point that Joel is an imposing defensive presence. Again, 2.32 blocks in 25 minutes, top 5 in the league. I'd like an explanation of how that happens accidentally. And his rebounding isn't Knight-esque either. 1 in 3.5 minutes,

I don't think you quite understand my point regarding the Ratner trade. He could easily have kept both Jefferson and Martin. There was no cap restriction, those players already being part of the Nets. Being a conservative rookie owner, he wanted to maintain a certain, risk averse salary threshold. Thus, he got rid of Martin, to avoid paying him. He did not otherwise have to choose him or Jefferson. He gave away a #1 pick and allstar to avoid paying him. Bottom line.

Here is the analogy. Portland suffers losses yearly. Large losses. I'm making the argument that their desired salary threshold is well below the current ignominious total. Like Ratner, I can envision Allen removing talent to save money, make that #1 pick talent just as Ratner did. To save 65 mil over 5 years. No other team will grant them the relief that New York can. That would give us the distinct pleasure of controlling a monopoly. Its our way or the highway, in other words bankruptcy.
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TMS
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4/19/2006  1:56 PM
you're trying to equate trading away 2 mid-late 1st round picks with giving up a #1 overall pick in the draft, & you're telling me i'm not making a strong case?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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4/19/2006  1:58 PM
Posted by TMS:

you're trying to equate trading away 2 mid-late 1st round picks with giving up a #1 overall pick in the draft, & you're telling me i'm not making a strong case?

I'm not sure what you're saying. Who said what about 2 mid-late 1st round picks?
No, you're not making a strong case.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
TMS
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4/19/2006  2:07 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

Butler over Pryzbilla? Regardless of how you rate either player, 2 and half blocks per game in 25 minutes over a season is a game changer no matter how you look at it. You're not making a strong case, just re-stating that Pryzbilla is "a marginal role player." But, as you can imagine, I need atleast one reason why. Is Ben Wallace a marginal role player? Obviously, Joel isn't as good as Ben but you should be able to grasp the point that Joel is an imposing defensive presence. Again, 2.32 blocks in 25 minutes, top 5 in the league. I'd like an explanation of how that happens accidentally.

Eddie Griffin's 3 years younger & averaging just a fraction less BPG than Pryzbilla (which actually amounts to more if you average his BPG to the minutes he plays againts JP's)... i don't see anyone knocking down MIN's door to get at him or even mentioning him as 1 of their elite young talented players... he's a role player just like JP is in POR... i'm not saying shotblocking is insignificant, but JP isn't the intimidator that Ben Wallace is or any of the other top 8 NBA shotblockers in the league are, & the rest of his #'s don't amount to much else other than classifying him as a marginal role player in my eyes... sorry if you disagree.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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4/19/2006  2:13 PM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by TMS:

you're trying to equate trading away 2 mid-late 1st round picks with giving up a #1 overall pick in the draft, & you're telling me i'm not making a strong case?

I'm not sure what you're saying. Who said what about 2 mid-late 1st round picks?
No, you're not making a strong case.

Like Ratner, I can envision Allen removing talent to save money, make that #1 pick talent just as Ratner did.

sorry, i must've read that wrong... sounded at first like you were comparing what the Nets got back in exchange for KMart w/a #1 overall pick.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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4/19/2006  2:15 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by codeunknown:

Butler over Pryzbilla? Regardless of how you rate either player, 2 and half blocks per game in 25 minutes over a season is a game changer no matter how you look at it. You're not making a strong case, just re-stating that Pryzbilla is "a marginal role player." But, as you can imagine, I need atleast one reason why. Is Ben Wallace a marginal role player? Obviously, Joel isn't as good as Ben but you should be able to grasp the point that Joel is an imposing defensive presence. Again, 2.32 blocks in 25 minutes, top 5 in the league. I'd like an explanation of how that happens accidentally.

Eddie Griffin's 3 years younger & averaging just a fraction less BPG than Pryzbilla (which actually amounts to more if you average his BPG to the minutes he plays againts JP's)... i don't see anyone knocking down MIN's door to get at him or even mentioning him as 1 of their elite young talented players... he's a role player just like JP is in POR... i'm not saying shotblocking is insignificant, but JP isn't the intimidator that Ben Wallace is or any of the other top 8 NBA shotblockers in the league are, & the rest of his #'s don't amount to much else other than classifying him as a marginal role player in my eyes... sorry if you disagree.

I think you're confusing matters. The point was and is that Pryzbilla is more valuable than Jack and Outlaw, qualifying him as one of the 3 top prospects for Portland my opinion. How he stacks against Griffin is a separate affair. No one's calling to acquire Outlaw or Jack either, atleast not more than Griffin. So thats irrelevant. Pryzbilla is also a legitimate 7 feet tall.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
codeunknown
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4/19/2006  2:19 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by TMS:

you're trying to equate trading away 2 mid-late 1st round picks with giving up a #1 overall pick in the draft, & you're telling me i'm not making a strong case?

I'm not sure what you're saying. Who said what about 2 mid-late 1st round picks?
No, you're not making a strong case.

Like Ratner, I can envision Allen removing talent to save money, make that #1 pick talent just as Ratner did.

sorry, i must've read that wrong... sounded at first like you were comparing what the Nets got back in exchange for KMart w/a #1 overall pick.

The statement reflects that a #1 pick and all-star talent was reluctantly surrendered essentially for financial relief, considered crucial by Ratner at the beginning stages of his ownership.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
TMS
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4/19/2006  2:22 PM
there goes that legitimate 7 footer nonsense again... i heard the same stuff when people around here were defending the Jerome James signing.

anyway, the topic isn't JP, so i'm gonna just drop that argument... you're right, i was confusing matters a bit... your idea to get a #1 overall pick from POR is still not reasonable in my eyes, no matter how you slice it, unless you are offering them some quality young talent in return.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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4/19/2006  2:43 PM
Posted by TMS:

there goes that legitimate 7 footer nonsense again... i heard the same stuff when people around here were defending the Jerome James signing.

anyway, the topic isn't JP, so i'm gonna just drop that argument... you're right, i was confusing matters a bit... your idea to get a #1 overall pick from POR is still not reasonable in my eyes, no matter how you slice it, unless you are offering them some quality young talent in return.

TMS, even considering Butler over Pryzbilla is nonsense. And, of course, size on its own isn't a solid predictor of anything. Fortunately, I presented to you his entire stat line to confirm the impact he has on a game. And size is, of course, critical in defending the post, where a height and weight advantage often dictates a mismatch. Additionally, when a player's impact is based on size, as opposed to athleticism, his durability is far more reliable - as size doesn't decline dramatically by the age of 40. Hopefully, you now understand the sense in pointing out that Pryzbilla is 7 feet tall, in contrast to the 6'8 230 lb Griffin.

As always, you are free to disagree with the trade proposal. My logic is merely that it can happen and that the chances aren't so miniscule.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
TMS
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4/19/2006  3:00 PM
& what makes you say that considering Butler over Pryzbilla is nonsense? how about giving a little reasoning behind that statement since you're asking me for the reasoning behind mine? what has Pryzbilla done during his previous 6 years in the NBA that sets him so far apart from what we can reasonably expect out of Jackie Butler in the next 5? Take a look at his stats over his career & tell me how Jackie Butler doesn't stack up to this guy?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3408
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
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4/19/2006  3:06 PM
Posted by TMS:

& what makes you say that considering Butler over Pryzbilla is nonsense? how about giving a little reasoning behind that statement since you're asking me for the reasoning behind mine? what has Pryzbilla done during his previous 6 years in the NBA that sets him so far apart from what we can reasonably expect out of Jackie Butler in the next 5? Take a look at his stats over his career & tell me how Jackie Butler doesn't stack up to this guy?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3408

I'll get back to you. Its going to be long night at work. Until then.

Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
codeunknown
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4/21/2006  11:48 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by TMS:

& what makes you say that considering Butler over Pryzbilla is nonsense? how about giving a little reasoning behind that statement since you're asking me for the reasoning behind mine? what has Pryzbilla done during his previous 6 years in the NBA that sets him so far apart from what we can reasonably expect out of Jackie Butler in the next 5? Take a look at his stats over his career & tell me how Jackie Butler doesn't stack up to this guy?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3408

I'll get back to you. Its going to be long night at work. Until then.

This is my breakdown. Feel free to chime in.

Butler - 21 years old, 6-10, 260 lbs, developing post moves, decent agility for a man his size - average for the 5 - but below average for the 4, soft touch, uses girth well to collect rebounds, inconsistent but clearly improving jump-shot, poor finisher around basket, below average running the break, weight problems, stamina needs to improve, poor lateral movement, poor help defense, poor vertical lift to contest jumpers.

Comparison: bigger but less refined Mike Sweetney, Max Upside: around 14 ppg, 52%, 7.5 rpg, 0.5 bpg, 30mpg

Pryzbilla - 26 years old, 7-1, 255lbs, no post moves, needs to develop jumpshot, poor running the break, fouls frequently, good rebounding skills, good at setting screens, great help defense, excellent shotblocker, knows his role - doesn't think he's Kareem

Comparison: poor man's Ben Wallace, Max upside: 7ppg, 55%, 10.5 rpg , 3.1 bpg, 34 mpg
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
Trade involving Portland's #1

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