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Kidd & Marbury - A study in the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality
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TMS
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3/16/2006  4:19 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

Fish, Marbury's situation is complexing because you remember when he tried that a couple of games. The perfect example was the infamous Orlando game where he wouldn't take a shot, he just passed the ball. Then old pee bags went nuts, saying that was unacceptable, Fraizer screaming Marbury has to take the shots. It's sad if it ain't funny. The guy is damn if you do or damn if you don't. If Marbury plays lights out he is to blame for not getting other people the ball, if doesn't then he didn't step up.

you got to be kidding me... you obviously didn't watch that ORL game if you think that Mebury just dumping the ball off the way he was that game is the same thing as playing unselfishly & getting the rest of your teammates involved in the game... he played that game w/absolutely no passion or inkling to make you think he wanted to be on the court that day... that's what pissed off LB, Clyde & Isiah... if he'd played that game the same way Kidd plays most of his games, there wouldn't have been an issue, trust me.
As far as Marbury not being successful like Kidd. Lets be honest both guys have been in the league for 10+ years and for all their hoopla, Kidd has only 3 sucessful years in my opinion in a 12 year career while Marbury has none. If I want to know what a winning PG knows about the game I would ask Tony Parker who seems to school both these chumps every chance gets.

i agree w/u on TP, but also remember that he has Tim Duncan his first few years in the league just like Mebury had KG... Kidd didn't get into a good situation until he got to Phoenix, & he had that team going in the right direction before they traded him (because of the whole domestic violence incident)... look at what he was able to do in NJ playing alongside KMart & RJ... do either 1 of those guys even compare to Duncan or KG? what do u think Kidd would have done had he been there to play w/the guys Steve Nash has right now? we'd be talking about him being the MVP of the league right now.
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tomverve
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3/16/2006  4:26 PM
Posted by TMS:

this example illustrates the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality.

Jason Kidd's line from last night:
0 pts. / 7 assists / 6 rebounds / 4 steals
W78 - 65
- not shown in the stats:
playing tough defense, being a leader on the floor, making his teammates better & willing his team to a victory

Mebury's stats from Mon. night:
25 pts. / 7 assists / 4 rebounds / 1 steal
L108-96
- not shown in the stats:
playing no defense, being preoccupied with getting his numbers instead of being a leader, playing too much 1 on 1 style basketball while his teammates are left out of the action & his team ends up losing as a result


This example illustrates a bad argument.

Some glaring flaws:
Not defining "winning" and "losing" mentality (ambiguity)
Drawing general conclusions from two games (sample size)
Hand picking data to support a previously formed conclusion (selection bias)
Not taking context into proper account (fundamental attribution error)
Certain claims supported only implicitly by appeal to general concensus (bandwagon fallacy)
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TMS
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3/16/2006  4:33 PM
sorry tom... i don't have the time in the day to go into your extensive stat studies & comparisons... i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court... anyone who doesn't know what i'm talking about when i refer to a "winning" & "losing mentality" may have deeper issues than i can help them with on this forum... or maybe they're just morons who shouldn't be reading these forums to begin with... take your pick... i don't think there's a need for me to elaborate any much further on the point i was trying to make, but if you need further explanation of my point, let me know & maybe we can set something up for you.
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Pharzeone
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3/16/2006  4:37 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Pharzeone:

Fish, Marbury's situation is complexing because you remember when he tried that a couple of games. The perfect example was the infamous Orlando game where he wouldn't take a shot, he just passed the ball. Then old pee bags went nuts, saying that was unacceptable, Fraizer screaming Marbury has to take the shots. It's sad if it ain't funny. The guy is damn if you do or damn if you don't. If Marbury plays lights out he is to blame for not getting other people the ball, if doesn't then he didn't step up.

you got to be kidding me... you obviously didn't watch that ORL game if you think that Mebury just dumping the ball off the way he was that game is the same thing as playing unselfishly & getting the rest of your teammates involved in the game... he played that game w/absolutely no passion or inkling to make you think he wanted to be on the court that day... that's what pissed off LB, Clyde & Isiah... if he'd played that game the same way Kidd plays most of his games, there wouldn't have been an issue, trust me.
As far as Marbury not being successful like Kidd. Lets be honest both guys have been in the league for 10+ years and for all their hoopla, Kidd has only 3 sucessful years in my opinion in a 12 year career while Marbury has none. If I want to know what a winning PG knows about the game I would ask Tony Parker who seems to school both these chumps every chance gets.

i agree w/u on TP, but also remember that he has Tim Duncan his first few years in the league just like Mebury had KG... Kidd didn't get into a good situation until he got to Phoenix, & he had that team going in the right direction before they traded him (because of the whole domestic violence incident)... look at what he was able to do in NJ playing alongside KMart & RJ... do either 1 of those guys even compare to Duncan or KG? what do u think Kidd would have done had he been there to play w/the guys Steve Nash has right now? we'd be talking about him being the MVP of the league right now.

I thought Marbury was being immature in that game and trying to prove a point about him taking shots. I think it kind of prove it somewhat because the coach told him that it was unacceptable to not try to shoot and drive. As far as Kidd's excuse for not having Duncan, don't see how that matters when you are letting Parker beat you by himself. What was the excuse against the Lakers, when Fisher was outplaying him as well. That is why I never understood, the biggest talkers on that team was Kidd and Martin and but shrunk like wet balls during the finals. But Parker does that to everyone in crunch time, so no shame.
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martin
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3/16/2006  4:37 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by TMS:

this example illustrates the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality.

Jason Kidd's line from last night:
0 pts. / 7 assists / 6 rebounds / 4 steals
W78 - 65
- not shown in the stats:
playing tough defense, being a leader on the floor, making his teammates better & willing his team to a victory

Mebury's stats from Mon. night:
25 pts. / 7 assists / 4 rebounds / 1 steal
L108-96
- not shown in the stats:
playing no defense, being preoccupied with getting his numbers instead of being a leader, playing too much 1 on 1 style basketball while his teammates are left out of the action & his team ends up losing as a result


This example illustrates a bad argument.

Some glaring flaws:
Not defining "winning" and "losing" mentality (ambiguity)
Drawing general conclusions from two games (sample size)
Hand picking data to support a previously formed conclusion (selection bias)
Not taking context into proper account (fundamental attribution error)
Certain claims supported only implicitly by appeal to general concensus (bandwagon fallacy)

yeah, but your arguement is flawed too: You sized it up to be an agruement while it's just an illusration.
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NYKBocker
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3/16/2006  4:38 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Excellent post. I compare Statbury's game to a dominant big man in the post that refuses to pass. That big man would make everyone just stand around and wait for things to happen similar to Statbury. Statbury wants his teammates to stand here and there and wait for his outstanding pass if his shot is not there.

We had a word for that about 7 years ago. It was called "ewing"!

I didn't want to say that for I am afraid that lightning would strike me where I type
tomverve
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3/16/2006  4:39 PM
Posted by TMS:

i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court...

A cognitive bias is any of a wide range of observer effects identified in cognitive science and social psychology including very basic statistical, social attribution, and memory errors that are common to all human beings. Biases drastically skew the reliability of anecdotal and legal evidence. Social biases, usually called attributional biases affect our everyday social interactions. And biases related to probability and decision making significantly affect the scientific method which is deliberately designed to minimize such bias from any one observer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

See also: list of cognitive biases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
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NYKBocker
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3/16/2006  4:40 PM
Posted by oohah:

By the way, I agree with the premise that Kidd is much more of a winning-type player than Marbury.

I also think Marbury jinxed himself by leaving Minnesota. Dumbest move ever.

oohah

Dumber than writing "All Alone" in his shoes?
Dumber than calling himself Starbury?
Dumber than calling himself "The best PG"?

He is just plain dumb.
tomverve
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3/16/2006  4:41 PM
Posted by martin:

yeah, but your arguement is flawed too: You sized it up to be an agruement while it's just an illusration.


Oh, I thought it was supposed to be a study. My bad.
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Bonn1997
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3/16/2006  4:42 PM
What player does compare favorably against Kidd?
martin
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3/16/2006  4:44 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

His evil twin brother Kidding.
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nykshaknbake
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3/16/2006  4:46 PM
Translation: This is the way it is b/c I think so. I have no data to back up my opinion. If you don't agree you're dumb.
Posted by TMS:

sorry tom... i don't have the time in the day to go into your extensive stat studies & comparisons... i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court... anyone who doesn't know what i'm talking about when i refer to a "winning" & "losing mentality" may have deeper issues than i can help them with on this forum... or maybe they're just morons who shouldn't be reading these forums to begin with... take your pick... i don't think there's a need for me to elaborate any much further on the point i was trying to make, but if you need further explanation of my point, let me know & maybe we can set something up for you.
Pharzeone
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3/16/2006  4:47 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

Parker, Billups, Nash. But speedy guards give him alot of trouble, he has the advantage in the post though.
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oohah
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3/16/2006  4:48 PM
Dumber than writing "All Alone" in his shoes?
Dumber than calling himself Starbury?
Dumber than calling himself "The best PG"?

He is just plain dumb.

Yes, leaving Minnesota was dumber than all those things combined. Marbury ain't no genius.
What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

Not that many. Tim Duncan and Shaq for sure. The thing is, Kidd has been so instrumental in the Net's success, I'd have to put his impact on a team in the top 5-6 players in the game.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
TMS
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3/16/2006  5:16 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Translation: This is the way it is b/c I think so. I have no data to back up my opinion. If you don't agree you're dumb.
Posted by TMS:

sorry tom... i don't have the time in the day to go into your extensive stat studies & comparisons... i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court... anyone who doesn't know what i'm talking about when i refer to a "winning" & "losing mentality" may have deeper issues than i can help them with on this forum... or maybe they're just morons who shouldn't be reading these forums to begin with... take your pick... i don't think there's a need for me to elaborate any much further on the point i was trying to make, but if you need further explanation of my point, let me know & maybe we can set something up for you.



looks like there's more of you than i thought.
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nykshaknbake
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3/16/2006  6:50 PM
I think you just proved my point. Not saying that you are right or wrong, but to those that actually read studies and know what they entail, this is beyond a joke. Just say I hate Marbury and love Jason Kidd. The former is a loser and the latter a winner. Trying to give credibility to your statment by saying it's a study is dumb.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Translation: This is the way it is b/c I think so. I have no data to back up my opinion. If you don't agree you're dumb.
Posted by TMS:

sorry tom... i don't have the time in the day to go into your extensive stat studies & comparisons... i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court... anyone who doesn't know what i'm talking about when i refer to a "winning" & "losing mentality" may have deeper issues than i can help them with on this forum... or maybe they're just morons who shouldn't be reading these forums to begin with... take your pick... i don't think there's a need for me to elaborate any much further on the point i was trying to make, but if you need further explanation of my point, let me know & maybe we can set something up for you.



looks like there's more of you than i thought.
martin
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3/16/2006  7:03 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I think you just proved my point. Not saying that you are right or wrong, but to those that actually read studies and know what they entail, this is beyond a joke. Just say I hate Marbury and love Jason Kidd. The former is a loser and the latter a winner. Trying to give credibility to your statment by saying it's a study is dumb.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Translation: This is the way it is b/c I think so. I have no data to back up my opinion. If you don't agree you're dumb.
Posted by TMS:

sorry tom... i don't have the time in the day to go into your extensive stat studies & comparisons... i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court... anyone who doesn't know what i'm talking about when i refer to a "winning" & "losing mentality" may have deeper issues than i can help them with on this forum... or maybe they're just morons who shouldn't be reading these forums to begin with... take your pick... i don't think there's a need for me to elaborate any much further on the point i was trying to make, but if you need further explanation of my point, let me know & maybe we can set something up for you.



looks like there's more of you than i thought.

Where are you going with this? I don't even get your arguement. TMS made a observation after watching something and shared it with us. What does it have to do with a "study"? And why does it automatically become a hate/love thing? That's some pretty wacky stretching there.
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rvhoss
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3/16/2006  7:04 PM
blah blah blah
all kool aid all the time.
martin
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3/16/2006  7:08 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

blah blah blah

dude, seriouly, it's posts like this that get you nowhere.
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rvhoss
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3/16/2006  7:13 PM
I'm just not ready to join the end of the world bandwagon...this is rebuilding, I know that a message board is about posting your opionion, but ... yeah, you're right, I'll be back when they win a few games...I just can't participate in the mob mentality.

being the voice of reason is tough, but you'd expect you to be that voice of reason, being a knick fan for so long.

to say that kidd is better when, after he's done with his career, he'll still be below barkley and others.

marbury said it best last year, they are all losers.

i remember when zeke made a bad pass in the ECF and bird stole it and he was an idiot, just like marbs...they eventually won back to back championships...I'm not saying stop bashing, I'm just saying, stop censoring.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-17-2006 01:15 AM]
all kool aid all the time.
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Kidd & Marbury - A study in the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality
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