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Time for all Isiah supporters to jump off ship?
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martin
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2/26/2006  1:21 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by mythfaze:

Give him the coaching job... or just can him. He can draft, that I'll readily admit. Anything else, forget it. I'd list his shortcomings except I'm afraid I'd be accused of plagiarism by anyone who has ever objectively evaluated his performance.

You won't have a problem plagiarising because no one has come up with any facts yet....They all blame for because the Knicks aren't winning...HMM, I always though that was the coach's job, to get the team to play as a unit...Go for it...convince me that Isiah is not doing his job....

How about this for Isiah not doing his job:

No lottery protection for the Curry picks (even like top 3)
Giving Big Game a contract.
Giving Jamal a contract with out knowing if he can play D or not.
Giving up Kurt for a Pick and a broken back who can't shoot.
Not putting together a team that has 1 defensive player.
Not communicating with his season ticket holders well enough.
Sanders sexual harrassment tangle.

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WOODMANnYk
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2/26/2006  1:24 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Travla:

As I wrote Woodmannyk. Isiah will get the players, it'll just take him a few years to change most of roster again!! I don't believe Isiah wanted LB, he didn't have a choice so he has to get the players LB needs, he just can't do it in one season. When Isiah came here, he wanted athletes and a running team, why would he suddenly get a coach that doesn't play that style?.....because the owners directed him to do so. That's all I'm saying!!

Travla, that is good and all, but if he comes out and says Eddy Curry is a 1nce every 20 year talent u need jamal crawford to win championships, gives jerome james 32mm--isnt that a red flag--not including all the other disasters?

That was my point!! he's a horrible manager.. He has no skills whatever as president or GM of a team..
Assiah should be a talent evaluator. I give him credit for drafting kats like frye, damon stoudamire, mcgrady , camby but his free-agent signings are horrific.. crawford, jerome james, vin baker....
The Future. GO KNICKS!
BigSm00th
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2/26/2006  1:26 PM
The fact that someone can justify the moves Isiah Thomas has made since he took over is literally unbelievable. The Knicks are the worse team in the League, they've spent the most money, Isiah routinely changes from saying he's going to rebuild to saying they're going to contend, they traded their own draft picks for the next two years and replaced them with mediocre ones in the middle and end of the first round, they have a bevy of overpaid, shoot-first point guards who don't play defense...to justify Isiah Thomas' job as a GM by saying that he has upgraded the talent is outrageous.

The team has gotten WORSE, looking at the Knicks through the perspective of individual talent is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Who cares how great the individual talent is, the Knicks are far and away the worst team in the League, not only in the PRESENT, but in the FUTURE as well. Anytime a team is in that position, the GM has done an awful job, the coach has done an awful job, and the players have done an awful job. The owner has even done an awful job in letting this happen.

Who cares who you place blame on, put it on everyone. Dolan, Brown, Isiah, Marbury, it doesn't matter.
#Knickstaps
SlimPack
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2/26/2006  1:30 PM
Posted by holfresh:

I am Isiah supporter and I not going anywhere....I will take on one and all because you can't dispute the facts...Because a few of you have reason now to push Isiah over the ledge means nothing to me...I am a fair individual...I have been watching the game for some time now...The GM so far has done his job...He has upgrade the talent since being here...Your problem with Isiah is that we haven't won..Thats on the coach if you want to be fair...but you don't...It can't be Larry..
Larry has done the worst job of anyone this year and he isn't even touched.....So let me hear your agruments and I'll bring mine...Let's see who holds water...


your right holfresh, Larry Brown has down a terrible job as coach for this season, but you cant blame larry without also blaming isiah. I think at this point it's obvious that larry should be fired, but haven't you ever wondered why he hasn't been? couldn't one factor in his not having been fired yet be that IT foolishly signed him for 5 years at 10 million? also you seem to want to blame larry while trying to maintain that Isiah is innocent, but consider the following. It was Isiah Thomas who not too long ago more or less said, that he was going to stick with the coach no matter what and that if the players and the coach dont get along the players will have to go, therefore I submit to you that isn't it only logical to say that the more Larry ruins this team/franchise, consequentially the more Isiah ruins it?




[Edited by - slimpack on 02-26-2006 1:35 PM]

[Edited by - slimpack on 02-26-2006 1:35 PM]
Travla
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2/26/2006  1:31 PM
Briggs....Curry may not be the next Shaq but he will eventually figure out how to play, If we get 15 and 8 outta him, I'll be satisfied. I like Jamal but LB has frazzled the man and taken his confidence. Jamal scored 18 a game last season with a bunch of 30 and a few 40 pt games, you only go backwards like that unless you have nagging injuries or you've lost confidence!! JJ's contract is just the market, you can't get around that. You know most deals/trades usually include players the other team wants to shed like Penny and others we've had. QRich was a good gamble just hasn't worked out, I wanted to keep KT (and please no one bring up the season KT's having, he's not a real part of their offense and he's been playing on a bum foot). So yeah Isiah has brought in questionable players but most were part of deals to get the player he wanted/needed....that how teams play the trading game.
https://www.youtube.com/user/RPreston01/videos
McK1
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2/26/2006  1:33 PM
FACTS:

A - He has traded 7 picks - 3 first and 4 second and taken on over 200 million (including Penny) in salary for Marbury and Eddy Curry

thats a ton of building assets for guys who have no historically won squat and have no fundamental game to build upon.

Then there is the option to swap in 07, another move they may further Chicago's ascent.

B - He gave Jamal Crawford 56 million. In that trade went NY's only paint presence and back-up point. 2 years and neither have been replaced

C - He trades Kurt for Q. We already had Crawford geting 6 mill while shooting 39% from the field playing NO DEFENSE and doing nothing more than gunning 3's, why add Q? Some will say it netted us Nate. Did we really need a 5' 9 shooting guard who needs the ball to be effective in a backcourt that features ball-hungry players Marbury Crawford and Q?

D - the draft itself. on a team as poor defensively as the Knicks, do you think using any of the 3 picks on at least 1 guy wth the will and ability to defend on the next level may have been prudent?

E - the MLE. Vin Baker & Jerome James. Jerome is on the books till he is 35. He will get 6 mill plus that season.

F - the collective basketbal IQ of the team. Has it ever beeen lower?

G - the payroll. has it ever been higher?

H - fan morale. destroyed.

I - he wants to beat up Bill Simmons.

J - he wanted to fight Shandon.

K - Chaney-gate on Letterman

L - Anuchagate

M - Steph's cousin. A real front-office leader like Rod Thorn cleared the Marbry gang out of the Meadowlands and then cleared Marbury.







[Edited by - McK1 on 02-26-2006 1:34 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
holfresh
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2/26/2006  1:36 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by mythfaze:

Give him the coaching job... or just can him. He can draft, that I'll readily admit. Anything else, forget it. I'd list his shortcomings except I'm afraid I'd be accused of plagiarism by anyone who has ever objectively evaluated his performance.

You won't have a problem plagiarising because no one has come up with any facts yet....They all blame for because the Knicks aren't winning...HMM, I always though that was the coach's job, to get the team to play as a unit...Go for it...convince me that Isiah is not doing his job....

How about this for Isiah not doing his job:

No lottery protection for the Curry picks (even like top 3)
Giving Big Game a contract.
Giving Jamal a contract with out knowing if he can play D or not.
Giving up Kurt for a Pick and a broken back who can't shoot.
Not putting together a team that has 1 defensive player.
Not communicating with his season ticket holders well enough.
Sanders sexual harrassment tangle.


1. The deal might not have went through if Chicago didn't have the lottery option in there...If doesn't matter at this point...Curry is better and anyone coming out next year...

2. He had to give Big Game a contract...The Knicks literally had no center...Big Game contract does not matter, we are well over the cap....It really has no impact on anything...

3. Jamal was exciting before Brown got here..I didn't see anyone complaining before Larry put him on the point...The guy jsut got to the point where he is making better shot selection, now you are putting in a position to make decision for other...Setting him up to fial....


4. Kurt Thomas, how many power forwards do we really need...Was Kurt all that instrumental to the Knick's success? With Kurt we didn't make it to the playoff for 4 consecutive years...We needed a shooter to extend the defense and free the middle for Curry...I still think with patients that will be a good trade in the end...Q's game is begginning to come around....Patients please Knick fans..
Do you also want Kurt here taking time away from Frye at this time....Do you..It was time for Kurt to go....we got Nate as well, he will be a chip we can trade....It was the right time to move Kurt...


5. Defensive player....Again, who is available...It's been 2 YEARS, I know it seems longer...
Who is out there, tell me...

6. Season ticket holders, Come on...You guys should understand most of all...Be patient..


7. Isiah can have alot of women in NYC if he wanted, but he will choose a chick that is 250 and looks like a man...ok that makes sense....Come on....
jazz74
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2/26/2006  1:36 PM
i am a supporter of isaih and i am saying that it is lb and the players' fault. thomas brought in talent, plain and simple. how many other teams have three people capable of scoring 50 points any given night? we said in the summer and critics that on paper we look like a playoff team. isaih brought the players here. with that said, it is up to brown to get them to mesh. he said he never coached effort but as a good coach you sometimes have to adjust to the players. this roster is bar far better than last years. the coach has to make it work. lenny wilkins was fired for the record he had last year and i wish that we had something resembling that record this year. does not make sense. during the layzie days, we had the lack of talent but players that gave their all, which is not much. with thomas we have the talent but not the work ethic. as far as pnot being "lary" players, he knew what type of players he was going to coach when he accepted the job. he had the say of curry, jalen, and franchise coming three moves that were criticized. so lb is starting to be at fault with this roster as well.
holfresh
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2/26/2006  1:38 PM
Posted by McK1:

FACTS:

A - He has traded 7 picks - 3 first and 4 second and taken on over 200 million (including Penny) in salary for Marbury and Eddy Curry

thats a ton of building assets for guys who have no historically won squat and have no fundamental game to build upon.

Then there is the option to swap in 07, another move they may further Chicago's ascent.

B - He gave Jamal Crawford 56 million. In that trade went NY's only paint presence and back-up point. 2 years and neither have been replaced

C - He trades Kurt for Q. We already had Crawford geting 6 mill while shooting 39% from the field playing NO DEFENSE and doing nothing more than gunning 3's, why add Q? Some will say it netted us Nate. Did we really need a 5' 9 shooting guard who needs the ball to be effective in a backcourt that features ball-hungry players Marbury Crawford and Q?

D - the draft itself. on a team as poor defensively as the Knicks, do you think using any of the 3 picks on at least 1 guy wth the will and ability to defend on the next level may have been prudent?

E - the MLE. Vin Baker & Jerome James. Jerome is on the books till he is 35. He will get 6 mill plus that season.

F - the collective basketbal IQ of the team. Has it ever beeen lower?

G - the payroll. has it ever been higher?

H - fan morale. destroyed.

I - he wants to beat up Bill Simmons.

J - he wanted to fight Shandon.

K - Chaney-gate on Letterman

L - Anuchagate

M - Steph's cousin. A real front-office leader like Rod Thorn cleared the Marbry gang out of the Meadowlands and then cleared Marbury.







[Edited by - McK1 on 02-26-2006 1:34 PM]



One answer for all the above...we are over the cap so it does not matter...It's not our money...who cares.....

Bill Simmons trying to get some press from bashing Isiah....He needs to look at Danny Ainge who is even worst...

Were your moral destroyed when you saw the talent at the start of the season? What changed and who is really responsible?

Shandon thought he should be starting on the Knicks....Isiah wanted to trade him and he was upset,
Are you actaully backing Shandon on this...he should not be in the league....we still owe him and avg of * per this year and next...please....He sits in Miami and not one peep out of his mouth...

I saw the Letterman show....It's a comedy show...Letterman joked if u will fire Chaney..he said no...Latteman made a joke then he laughed....U know what bury him for that...

The chick is after the money thats all their is to it...




[Edited by - holfresh on 02-26-2006 1:45 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-26-2006 1:46 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-26-2006 1:47 PM]
McK1
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2/26/2006  1:40 PM
cap money is an asset junior.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Silverfuel
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2/26/2006  1:46 PM
I am not a believer in him anymore. I gave him upto the trading deadline this year and he delivered nothing. Rose and Francis are not the solution. One more screw up and I'll start calling for his head.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
SlimPack
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2/26/2006  1:47 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

I am not a believer in him anymore. I gave him upto the trading deadline this year and he delivered nothing. Rose and Francis are not the solution. One more screw up and I'll start calling for his head.

Its pretty much the same with me, Im pissed off with him and hope dolan doesnt resign him, but I havent actually started calling for his head yet.

[Edited by - slimpack on 02-26-2006 1:48 PM]
FireIsiah
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2/26/2006  1:53 PM
He doesn't have 1 defensive player on this roster. How can we win games at a consistent rate with the worst defensive team in the league? I have never seen anything like this. 120 mill in payroll and nobody can guard anyone. Last night was the worst defensive performance by our guards that i have ever seen.
I want to leave something that's going to stand for a long timeI want to leave a legacy,I want to leave tradition.I want to leave an imprint,a blueprint in terms of how people play,and how they coach and how they respond when they put on the Knick uni.
mythfaze
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2/26/2006  2:06 PM

One answer for all the above...we are over the cap so it does not matter...It's not our money...who cares.....

That didn't even answer half of mck1's points.
Bill Simmons trying to get some press from bashing Isiah....He needs to look at Danny Ainge who is even worst...

Irrelevant to our situation.
Were your moral destroyed when you saw the talent at the start of the season? What changed and who is really responsible?

Who assembled the entire team again?
Shandon thought he should be starting on the Knicks....Isiah wanted to trade him and he was upset,
Are you actaully backing Shandon on this...he should not be in the league....we still owe him and avg of * per this year and next...please....He sits in Miami and not one peep out of his mouth...

Thomas called him a cancer in the locker room. Funny how he's the only one to ever say anything remotely like that, let alone how inappropriate it was.
And... why shouldn't he be in the league again? Not happy with his career averages of about 8 points, 3 boards, 1 assist 1 steal and good defense? You're right, I can't imagine somebody being more useless than that...
I saw the Letterman show....It's a comedy show...Letterman joked if u will fire Chaney..he said no...Latteman made a joke then he laughed....U know what bury him for that...

Which was... very inappropriate. Unprofessional. Of course he can't be buried for this one thing. Good thing this situation has been his only problem since being here...

The chick is after the money thats all their is to it...

Right, good point, backed by all kinds of evidence... what's that? You have absolutely no evidence and are just throwing baseless opinions out there? Oh.
Travla
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2/26/2006  2:09 PM
There are plenty of teams out there who play little or no defense and guess what, most of them have winning records (Philly, Cleve, Milw, Wash, Dall, Phoe, Clips, and Lakers) and some of the others have much better records than the Knicks. Sure defense will eventually win you championships but I'd just settle for wins and effort. Coaching and players, that's what it comes down to. LB shouldn't have been hired to coach this team and I simply don't believe that Isiah went to management and pushed for LB. Yeah the players should want to play no matter what but it isn't that simple, we judge athletes strictly by money. Have you ever been unhappy with your job or surroundings? You didn't give your all did you? We all go to work and at sometime we don't give our all for whatever reason. This team is not responding to LB so what do you do? You turn over the roster again? By the time you do that, LB will be gone!!

[Edited by - Travla on 02-26-2006 13:12]
https://www.youtube.com/user/RPreston01/videos
McK1
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2/26/2006  2:20 PM
Posted by Travla:

There are plenty of teams out there who play little or no defense and guess what, most of them have winning records (Philly, Cleve, Milw, Wash, Dall, Phoe, Clips, and Lakers) and some of the others have much better records than the Knicks. Sure defense will eventually win you championships but I'd just settle for wins and effort. Coaching and players, that's what it comes down to. LB shouldn't have been hired to coach this team and I simply don't believe that Isiah went to management and pushed for LB. Yeah the players should want to play no matter what but it isn't that simple, we judge athletes strictly by money. Have you ever been unhappy with your job or surroundings? You didn't give your all did you? We all go to work and at sometime we don't give our all for whatever reason. This team is not responding to LB so what do you do? You turn over the roster again? By the time you do that, LB will be gone!!

[Edited by - Travla on 02-26-2006 13:12]


Suns Mavs Clips and Lakers have guys on their team who can make stops when needed and as a team are better real-time on the defensive glass than NY.

Phx - Marion Diaw and Bell

Dal - Harris Howard Griffin Diop

LAC - Brand Kaman Ewing

LAL - Bryant Odom Parker

who do we have remotely aproaching the defensive ability of these guys?
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
nykdunk
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2/26/2006  2:39 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:


But the real problem is cablevision/dolan, not simply Isiah. Do you seriously think Cablevision would be willing to take 3 years of losses in order to rebuild the right way?? They aren't and can't be that future-oriented. They have investors/shareholders to answer to RIGHT NOW who won't accept 3 years of losses just to "some day" get the benefits of rebuilding the right way. So KG has 3 years left in him and Frye has 15. They'll trade Frye for KG and who knows maybe sell the team after those 3 years or find some other aging star to trade for. We need an owner like Mark Cuban who would be willing to take some initial losses to rebuild the right way in the long-term.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02-26-2006 1:22 PM]

Dolan did give Sather the go-ahead to unload the high-price lazy crap on the Rangers 2 years ago and look at their success this season. Surely a guy as smooth-talking as Isiah could convince him that rebuilding is the right way to go with the Knicks as well? I'm not going to absolve Dolan off all fault in this madness, because he has been known to do his fair share of meddling. But still, Dolan has given Isiah an unlimited budget and Isiah's use of it has been absolutely horrid. For all that money we still don't have one player you'd call a legit "franchise player," and you're know what? Under the CBA, you're not getting such a player unless you have a high draft pick or are way under the cap! We have 0 good defensive players and we play passionless basketball. We also don't have a draft pick in this upcoming draft. The list just goes on and on. We are the laughingstock of the NBA, plain and simple.

Isiah did inherited a mess, but he's only made it messier and really ought to go before he makes it worse. We must get rid off these contracts and endure a few seasons of losing in order to accumulate some high draft picks and just change the culture of the Knicks. We need to fill this team with guys who want to play here and win instead of guys who just want the NY spotlight and their paychecks. Then, we can try and add the pieces that can make the team competitive talentwise. Unless, we do that, I'm afraid we're steering a rudderless ship well on our way to absolutely nowhere.
nykdunk
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2/26/2006  2:56 PM
Also, I think you'll find that Cablevision is rich enough to survive swallowing a few poison pills. They spent 10s of millions of $$$ to block the Jets stadium, so they can afford this. A big payroll cut, as well as continued success of the Rangers should help keep total losses down a bit. The fanbase, as a whole, will surely be receptive to the rebuilding too having witnessed the circus of the last 5 odd years.
misterearl
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2/26/2006  4:11 PM
>> cap money is an asset junior.

Here we go
once a knick always a knick
Bonn1997
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2/26/2006  4:21 PM
A big payroll cut, as well as continued success of the Rangers should help keep total losses down a bit.
I know nothing about hockey. Did the Rangers do a "real" rebuild? Are they owned by Cablevision too? If yes to both, that would give me a litle hope.
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