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Larry must go!
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bigbeast
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2/21/2006  12:06 PM
Brown has been widely viewed as the best "teacher" in the game. Once he came out and said the Knicks would be his dream job it kind of backed Isiah into a corner.

If he didn't hire Brown, Isiah would have been killed in the media for not hire the "best coach" in the game after being released by the Pistons.

Isiah knew what kind of roster he assembled, thats why he interviewed Paul Westphal ( a run and gun coach) to be Herbs assistant. Isiah envisioned an uptempo team. But once Brown was freed, his hand was forced.

I guess Isiah figured, if I hire the "best teacher in the game" he should be able to adjust and do what he does best "teach". Regardless of the roster, if your a hall of fame coach, Brown should be able to take any roster and make it competitive.

The knicks record is not the most disapointing part of the Brown tenure here, but the fact that this team seems to lack effort more times than not. And Brown "The great teacher" has to take full blmae for that regardless of if he has "his players" or the And1 allstars.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
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martin
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2/21/2006  12:07 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

I've watched Frye away from the ball quite often. He still is totally lost when the ball goes up in the air, fails to put a body on guys and he still doesn't know how to rotate on defense. When rookies show those kinds of problems conventional wisdom is they get bench player minutes.

Maybe Larry read the "renaissance of Mo Taylor" thread and was inspired. Malik is the only one that plays hard all the time. Mo T is making $9mm a year. The rookies are still learning. Watch the games... the answers are pretty obvious.

You still didn't address the David Lee part of my response. I'm very curious why Larry should be giving him DNP-CDs


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02-21-2006 11:03 AM]


Lee looks lost out there too. He's as good a rebounder as Frye is a shooter, but Lee's defense is just as bad as Frye's as well. It's actually kinda nonchalant when he's guarding the perimeter. There have been MANY occasions where he would slowly approach the shooter and not put a hand in his face. Lee needs to work on his aggresiveness on D. Frye needs to work on his rotating. They both need confidence.

I think that's Brown's biggest gripe with Lee/Frye: Permiter D. Both player (probably) camped out in the lane in college and didn't have to guard out to the 3 point line.

Lee solved his shooting range problem, now if he can figure out the rotation, footwork and permiter D, he'll be fine.
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bigbeast
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2/21/2006  12:14 PM
If the Knicks were a game or two out of the playoff spot, I would agree that the rooks need to sit and learn. But the knicks have the 29th worse record in the league. Whats the point of Malik Rose and Taylor getting more minutes than Lee and Frye? Okay, so instead of losing by 20, Rose and Taylor will alow us to only lose by 15.

"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Knight
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2/21/2006  12:20 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

If the Knicks were a game or two out of the playoff spot, I would agree that the rooks need to sit and learn. But the knicks have the 29th worse record in the league. Whats the point of Malik Rose and Taylor getting more minutes than Lee and Frye? Okay, so instead of losing by 20, Rose and Taylor will alow us to only lose by 15.

It's not about losing, it's about learning. I don't necessarily think that the best way for the rookies to learn is to just throw them out there all together, hoping giving them more minutes together will teach them better than having them observe the veterans and play alongside the veterans.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
franco12
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2/21/2006  1:02 PM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by bigbeast:

If the Knicks were a game or two out of the playoff spot, I would agree that the rooks need to sit and learn. But the knicks have the 29th worse record in the league. Whats the point of Malik Rose and Taylor getting more minutes than Lee and Frye? Okay, so instead of losing by 20, Rose and Taylor will alow us to only lose by 15.

It's not about losing, it's about learning. I don't necessarily think that the best way for the rookies to learn is to just throw them out there all together, hoping giving them more minutes together will teach them better than having them observe the veterans and play alongside the veterans.


How do you learn to ride a bike? Its practice and playing against NBA competition is the best practice there is.

You don't learn by watching. You learn by doing.
franco12
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2/21/2006  1:03 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

I've watched Frye away from the ball quite often. He still is totally lost when the ball goes up in the air, fails to put a body on guys and he still doesn't know how to rotate on defense. When rookies show those kinds of problems conventional wisdom is they get bench player minutes.

Maybe Larry read the "renaissance of Mo Taylor" thread and was inspired. Malik is the only one that plays hard all the time. Mo T is making $9mm a year. The rookies are still learning. Watch the games... the answers are pretty obvious.

You still didn't address the David Lee part of my response. I'm very curious why Larry should be giving him DNP-CDs


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02-21-2006 11:03 AM]


Lee looks lost out there too. He's as good a rebounder as Frye is a shooter, but Lee's defense is just as bad as Frye's as well. It's actually kinda nonchalant when he's guarding the perimeter. There have been MANY occasions where he would slowly approach the shooter and not put a hand in his face. Lee needs to work on his aggresiveness on D. Frye needs to work on his rotating. They both need confidence.


And they're going to improve by sitting instead of doing?
franco12
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2/21/2006  1:08 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

the only thing i can really question is why david lee doesn't get any minutes. everything else is somewhat ok b/c those rooks are heavily flawed. plus, you have to play some of the vets, not only b/c of their contract but b/c you're trying to trade them...which brings it back to the real reason we stink, the vets suck.

lb is right, when you play 4 or 5 rooks together, it's a recipe for failure. they need some help. they need to be eased into the situation. it's not like frye is getting darko'd. he plays...and he plays alot. but his constant foul troubleand the fact that he can't guard anyone cuts into his minutes.

Gee- Frye has foul problems? Is that why he is averaging 3.1 pf per game.

And if being able to guard players was a reason to keep players out of the line up, we'd be sending no one onto the court.

Why is the point of playing these mind games? He has to 'LEARN'.

If he makes a mistake, go over it on the bench & at half time and in practice and in film sessions.

Why does every other team play their rookies? Why does a team like the atlanta hawks have a regular rotation?
fishmike
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2/21/2006  1:12 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Knight:
Posted by bigbeast:

If the Knicks were a game or two out of the playoff spot, I would agree that the rooks need to sit and learn. But the knicks have the 29th worse record in the league. Whats the point of Malik Rose and Taylor getting more minutes than Lee and Frye? Okay, so instead of losing by 20, Rose and Taylor will alow us to only lose by 15.

It's not about losing, it's about learning. I don't necessarily think that the best way for the rookies to learn is to just throw them out there all together, hoping giving them more minutes together will teach them better than having them observe the veterans and play alongside the veterans.


How do you learn to ride a bike? Its practice and playing against NBA competition is the best practice there is.

You don't learn by watching. You learn by doing.
then why is medical school 8 years? Why not just throw them out there with a scapel, stethoscpoe and tell them to learn?

The kids HAVE played and are playing. There is no Shaq, Kobe or Wade in the wings. For these guys to be good NBA players they will need to be smart players. That means watching and learning. Thats old school NBA. Just look at some of the guys we have in Curry and Crawford. Maybe if they did a little watching and learning instead of just getting thrown out there they would have a notion of how to play NBA ball. Instead both are in the their 5th and 6th years and lack the fundamental skills of defense and rebounding.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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2/21/2006  1:14 PM
what have the Hawks won? What players have they developed since Deke/Steve Smith/Mookie Blaylock were there?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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2/21/2006  1:19 PM
hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's a crappy coach, I'm just saying he needs to stop being THIS kind of coach...the Suns don't play defense, neither did the Mavericks for years.

It's not about what other coaches are out there...at this point, I'm pretty much convinced that Skiles is better than LB.

We know for sure phil jackson is.

IMHO, he is losing on purpose to pound home a point...but we need to keep the focus on why we are losing on who the culprit is.

BROWN.

This roster isn't as flawed as 5 to 8 other teams with better records. Look at the lakers roster. Kobe and Odom (who has little or no production this year) but they still seem to be winning games.

Raptor's, Hawks, Hornets, grizzlies, the list goes on and on...the roster isn't flawed, that's a crap argument that was first brought up by...OH, Larry Brown.

Before larry said the roster was flawed, we were all giddy on this rotation:

Marbs, Craw, Reezy/Lee, Frye, Curry.

That roster doesn't look to flawed to me.

Then when larry says he'd rather have Tim Thomas? We already know he hates tim thomas...so to even believe a word this coach says is kind of stupid...

but hey, LB says our roster is flawed, our roster is flawed?

I'm just saying, any of us could have this record, actually ALL OF US could have a BETTER RECORD.

To take LB's side after the multitude of DNP's, the close games loss with vets on the bench, the blowouts with Rooks on the bench, the record number of starting lineups and lash out at Zeke is kind of crazy.

This roster is NOT flawed. It's only flawed for LB's ancient style of coaching.

D'Antonio...better coach for this team. Don Nelson, Better coach for this team. George Karl, better coach for this team.

Heck, Herb Williams...better coach for THIS team.

Larry better be different.

Anyone else notice how much BETTER detroit is AFTER LB?

They would have won without him, they had 50 wins the year before.

Maybe larry is like the marbury of coaches, once he leaves, teams get better? (jokes)
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rvhoss
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2/21/2006  1:20 PM
oh, thanks for the well wishes...I'm sure fishy and others will notice a kinder gentler rvhoss going forward.
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Allanfan20
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2/21/2006  1:21 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

I've watched Frye away from the ball quite often. He still is totally lost when the ball goes up in the air, fails to put a body on guys and he still doesn't know how to rotate on defense. When rookies show those kinds of problems conventional wisdom is they get bench player minutes.

Maybe Larry read the "renaissance of Mo Taylor" thread and was inspired. Malik is the only one that plays hard all the time. Mo T is making $9mm a year. The rookies are still learning. Watch the games... the answers are pretty obvious.

You still didn't address the David Lee part of my response. I'm very curious why Larry should be giving him DNP-CDs


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02-21-2006 11:03 AM]


Lee looks lost out there too. He's as good a rebounder as Frye is a shooter, but Lee's defense is just as bad as Frye's as well. It's actually kinda nonchalant when he's guarding the perimeter. There have been MANY occasions where he would slowly approach the shooter and not put a hand in his face. Lee needs to work on his aggresiveness on D. Frye needs to work on his rotating. They both need confidence.


And they're going to improve by sitting instead of doing?


No, but getting them to earn they're minutes will. Unless you're name is Kobe, then you can't win on being more talented than everyone else, alone. Tim Thomas was probably our most talented player last year, and he always got big minutes. He got big minutes his whole life. Where did that get him. He didn't earn crap though, and learned to work for nothing. Our rookies cannot be pampered.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
djsunyc
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2/21/2006  1:23 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

I've watched Frye away from the ball quite often. He still is totally lost when the ball goes up in the air, fails to put a body on guys and he still doesn't know how to rotate on defense. When rookies show those kinds of problems conventional wisdom is they get bench player minutes.

Maybe Larry read the "renaissance of Mo Taylor" thread and was inspired. Malik is the only one that plays hard all the time. Mo T is making $9mm a year. The rookies are still learning. Watch the games... the answers are pretty obvious.

You still didn't address the David Lee part of my response. I'm very curious why Larry should be giving him DNP-CDs


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02-21-2006 11:03 AM]


Lee looks lost out there too. He's as good a rebounder as Frye is a shooter, but Lee's defense is just as bad as Frye's as well. It's actually kinda nonchalant when he's guarding the perimeter. There have been MANY occasions where he would slowly approach the shooter and not put a hand in his face. Lee needs to work on his aggresiveness on D. Frye needs to work on his rotating. They both need confidence.


And they're going to improve by sitting instead of doing?


No, but getting them to earn they're minutes will. Unless you're name is Kobe, then you can't win on being more talented than everyone else, alone. Tim Thomas was probably our most talented player last year, and he always got big minutes. He got big minutes his whole life. Where did that get him. He didn't earn crap though, and learned to work for nothing. Our rookies cannot be pampered.

hey hey hey. hold on one minute. let's be fair here. i heard he just won the 2006 superbowl with the detroit lions in madden 2k6. that's nothing to scoff at...
franco12
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2/21/2006  1:24 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

I've watched Frye away from the ball quite often. He still is totally lost when the ball goes up in the air, fails to put a body on guys and he still doesn't know how to rotate on defense. When rookies show those kinds of problems conventional wisdom is they get bench player minutes.

Maybe Larry read the "renaissance of Mo Taylor" thread and was inspired. Malik is the only one that plays hard all the time. Mo T is making $9mm a year. The rookies are still learning. Watch the games... the answers are pretty obvious.

You still didn't address the David Lee part of my response. I'm very curious why Larry should be giving him DNP-CDs


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02-21-2006 11:03 AM]


Lee looks lost out there too. He's as good a rebounder as Frye is a shooter, but Lee's defense is just as bad as Frye's as well. It's actually kinda nonchalant when he's guarding the perimeter. There have been MANY occasions where he would slowly approach the shooter and not put a hand in his face. Lee needs to work on his aggresiveness on D. Frye needs to work on his rotating. They both need confidence.


And they're going to improve by sitting instead of doing?


No, but getting them to earn they're minutes will. Unless you're name is Kobe, then you can't win on being more talented than everyone else, alone. Tim Thomas was probably our most talented player last year, and he always got big minutes. He got big minutes his whole life. Where did that get him. He didn't earn crap though, and learned to work for nothing. Our rookies cannot be pampered.


I'm not for pampering them- I'm for playing them. If they make a mistake, point it out.

There is no way that Frye turns into Tim Thomas if he 'gets' minutes vs earning them. And Lee? Lee has more motivation and hustle and effort in the tip of his pinky than Tim Thomas ever had for his whole career.
rvhoss
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2/21/2006  1:26 PM
yep, like I said, don't get me wrong, the rooks and the team and the organization will be much much better for this experiment...but if heads need to roll, then LB needs to step down.

Firing isiah will not make the knicks better...playing to win games will.

We'll see...I hope there was a pinky swear that everyone (dolan, zeke, LB) will ride this thing out (another year and then the finals baby!!) and nobody will get fired or step down while we are 1 year away from beating the shaqless heat for a spot against the defending champion dallas mavericks.

Hoofah...I almost burped up that kool aid gulp.

But, don't take what larry says to the papers as the word of god...our roster is not flawed, it's just immature.

If we keep everyone, when marbs turns 30, we will have the foruth best record in the league east (and you jokesters, feel free to say Atlantic).

Believe dat. (i know, I'm a psycho dreamer...but, hey, this kool aid is addictive!)

[Edited by - rvhoss on 02-21-2006 1:27 PM]
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rvhoss
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2/21/2006  1:31 PM
Posted by djsunyc:


hey hey hey. hold on one minute. let's be fair here. i heard he just won the 2006 superbowl with the detroit lions in madden 2k6. that's nothing to scoff at...

dude, I'm stomping to the finals in NBA2k6 with these flawed knicks! Reezy doesn't play much on my roster though...but Jerome James clogs the lane and Curry is like a scoring machine.

Boy, I'd love to see Marbs, Rose, Q (1 or 2), Curry, James play and a bench of crawdaddy, q (the other one), lee, nate, frye changing the pace.

Heck, bring moT when Curry fouls out.

Remember when phil jackson decided to let shaq play with 5 fouls? He didn't foul out...interesting coaching philosophies.

But, I want to reiterate, I think LB is best for the knicks right the org long term...however, if we lose a rook, we're in trouble. because we'll be starting all over again and zeke will def be gone as will every athletic player on the roster.

Shandon, spoon, eisley part 2 (they play defense)
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rvhoss
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2/21/2006  1:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:

congrats on your girl. Just remember to keep her off the pole.

You don't know how true that motto is.
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franco12
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2/21/2006  1:32 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

the only thing i can really question is why david lee doesn't get any minutes. everything else is somewhat ok b/c those rooks are heavily flawed. plus, you have to play some of the vets, not only b/c of their contract but b/c you're trying to trade them...which brings it back to the real reason we stink, the vets suck.

lb is right, when you play 4 or 5 rooks together, it's a recipe for failure. they need some help. they need to be eased into the situation. it's not like frye is getting darko'd. he plays...and he plays alot. but his constant foul trouble and the fact that he can't guard anyone cuts into his minutes.

What is Byron Scott doing with the Hornets? Who are the vets on that team? Aaron Williams, PJ Brown & Moochie Norris?

They're winning with young guys playing major minutes. Is chris paul better than everyone on our roster? Yes- but is are all the Hornets players better than everyone on our roster?
rvhoss
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2/21/2006  1:35 PM
Posted by franco12:


What is Byron Scott doing with the Hornets? Who are the vets on that team? Aaron Williams, PJ Brown & Moochie Norris?

They're winning with young guys playing major minutes. Is chris paul better than everyone on our roster? Yes- but is are all the Hornets players better than everyone on our roster?

No diggity doubt franco...and chris paul is only better than everyone on our roster because HE PLAYS!

When frye was putting up 30 point games, he was the rookie of the year.

So, now even Byron Scott is a better coach for these knicks than LB.

Not to mention what the celtics are doing...they are young as balls as well.

I'm telling guys, don't be fooled into thinking larry knows what he's doing...he's never played rooks and has no idea how to even contemplate how to teach them other than film sessions and practice.

We won't see any rookies play under brown, so having picks is a moot point. Why would he start a rookie over curry, lee, frye or nate?

Chris paul wouldn't see the light of day on this team.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 02-21-2006 1:37 PM]
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Allanfan20
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2/21/2006  1:38 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

I've watched Frye away from the ball quite often. He still is totally lost when the ball goes up in the air, fails to put a body on guys and he still doesn't know how to rotate on defense. When rookies show those kinds of problems conventional wisdom is they get bench player minutes.

Maybe Larry read the "renaissance of Mo Taylor" thread and was inspired. Malik is the only one that plays hard all the time. Mo T is making $9mm a year. The rookies are still learning. Watch the games... the answers are pretty obvious.

You still didn't address the David Lee part of my response. I'm very curious why Larry should be giving him DNP-CDs


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02-21-2006 11:03 AM]


Lee looks lost out there too. He's as good a rebounder as Frye is a shooter, but Lee's defense is just as bad as Frye's as well. It's actually kinda nonchalant when he's guarding the perimeter. There have been MANY occasions where he would slowly approach the shooter and not put a hand in his face. Lee needs to work on his aggresiveness on D. Frye needs to work on his rotating. They both need confidence.


And they're going to improve by sitting instead of doing?


No, but getting them to earn they're minutes will. Unless you're name is Kobe, then you can't win on being more talented than everyone else, alone. Tim Thomas was probably our most talented player last year, and he always got big minutes. He got big minutes his whole life. Where did that get him. He didn't earn crap though, and learned to work for nothing. Our rookies cannot be pampered.


I'm not for pampering them- I'm for playing them. If they make a mistake, point it out.

There is no way that Frye turns into Tim Thomas if he 'gets' minutes vs earning them. And Lee? Lee has more motivation and hustle and effort in the tip of his pinky than Tim Thomas ever had for his whole career.

Maybe he does have more motivation and less laziness, but he's also less talented and he has to work for it, to become a better player than Tim Thomas. Like I said, talent alone doesn't bring it, but you want to work hard to raise those talented to the highest level and eventually, D Lee can perform consistently. Remember when Lee was the starter? There would be nights when he'd put up 23 and 15 (Phoenix) and more nights when he'd have 5 and 3. Same exact thing goes for Frye. They wont become good to great players if they remain inconsistent. Larry Brown wants them to work soooooo hard, that by the time they have earned big minutes, on a nightly basis, they will be consistent basketball players who can play on both ends.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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