Posted by Bonn1997:

Two dudes that crave the ball like "precious!"

Is Marbury the other you have in mind? From watching the Knicks closely, you really don't think he's one-tenth as selfish as the media portrays him as, do you?

I like the way Marbs has played since the "orlando game".

Monroe and Frazier sacrificed to make it work. This was Clydes team and clyde made it work. Earl also became a more complete player. Earl came into an established team.

Marbs is not Clyde, Fransis is not Earl, and this is not an established team.

Does that mean it can't work? OF course not, Those two have incredible talent, but it ain't about the talent! Its about maturity, ego, and the team. Maybe the modern player can't really handle that.

Billups is elevated his game beyond his current contract and you don't hear boo about it! Thats what im talking about! Rashweed adapted! Vince/Kidd made it work. IT happens. BUt Isiah is not good at sniffing these guys out.

I want strong fundamentally sound players with character.

Francis is an undersireable contract, if this Isiahs trade to make, he should not have to pay too much more than Penny. But we have to drop Isiahs other mistake: Crawful!

I agree. I dont want to add Francis to Craw and Marbury. Craw has to go! The kid is too fragile mentally. I think Francis can be a PITA, but he also is a fighter. The kid won the ring in college. He knows how to win.

again, his contract expires 2 years SOONER than Craw's does... the Knicks will more than likely be capped out regardless during the year's he signed for... how does this negatively effect the cap? it may cost Dolan more $ over the long haul, but do you really care about that at this point? & i don't call getting a star player in a trade as a deal just to make a deal type move... something like trading for Reggie Evans & Earl Watson would qualify under that description.

Posted by bigbeast:

Letting Penny's contract just expire does what exactly? We go from 120 million to about 105. That does nothing for us.

It means a great deal bro if all you're going to do with it is use it to acquire someone else's long-term mess. Ask youselves fellas: Do you guys really want anything Portland has to offer? Do Darius Miles, Patterson and/or Ratliff really make us that much better now or moving forward? Do you really want Steve Francis to come here? I know we're all enamoured with his talent but he's a malcontent, he'd be playing out of position and then you gotta ask, are there enough shots to go around? Antonio Davis thought this was a circus before, imagine if we brought Francis here? Man, I can't think of a bigger square peg in a round hole scenario than that. Do you really want Kenyon Martin, his bad knees, bad back and bad contract? Tell me this trade doesn't have Antonio McDyess written all over it. Earl Watson? OK maybe for Jerome James straight up but for anything else... No way. Where the hell is the commitment to develop Nate Robinson with such a move? Madness... ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!! Let me ask you guys, when does it end? I'm sorry, mad respect for you all, you guys know that, but I don't buy the "trade Penny just because we can - we'll still be over the cap - we gotta deal Penny or else it's a lost cause" philosophy some of you are embracing. Just because we can doesn't mean we have to. We have an excellent opportunity to start managing the cap the right way RIGHT NOW and I say barring a can't-pass-up trade scenario for a high-draft pick and/or a young rising star player that has absolutely no baggage injury or character-wise, letting Penny walk does more good for us than using his expiring contract to deal for one or a few of the players mentioned above that we keep hearing about. I mean, Jesus Christ, there's a reason why these teams are giving up on these players! In one way or another, these various teams do not think these guys are worth the trouble or the money anymore. If THEY don't think so, what makes anyone around here think they'll be assets for us? Look I know that we probably won't be in the position cap-wise to go after a LeBron James at the end of next season, but what about the year after that? Or the year after that? Responsible cap management needs to become a top priority around here and it should start with Penny's expiring contract.

Finestrg, you're forgetting that the Knicks are also unloading Craw's longterm contract that runs through 2011 & getting back an expiring one in Tony Battie in the same trade... don't take this to be a 1 for 1 swap of Penny's expiring deal for Francis... the overall dollar amounts are very inconsequential to the Knicks' cap situation longterm... however, the Knicks get the better end in the deal by far in the talent department.

yeah, but you're bringing up the cap... i'm just telling you that your logic behind your argument is flawed, that's all... if you just don't like Francis, that's up to you.

here's something you Francis naysayers may be interested in:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3325

Francis had a career bad year in 2004 during his last year in HOU where he averaged:

16.6 pts / 5.5 reb / 6.2 asts

then he was traded to ORL, & had a renaissance his first year, putting up almost career best #'s:

21.3 pts / 5.8 reb / 7 asts


this year, his #'s are very similar to what he put up during his last season in HOU... i would have to say this is the absolute worst production you'll see out of him... i have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that he'll put up 20 / 5 / 6 type #'s if he were traded to NY, even playing alongside Marbury.

Posted by TMS:

here's something you Francis naysayers may be interested in:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3325

Francis had a career bad year in 2004 during his last year in HOU where he averaged:

16.6 pts / 5.5 reb / 6.2 asts

then he was traded to ORL, & had a renaissance his first year, putting up almost career best #'s:

21.3 pts / 5.8 reb / 7 asts


this year, his #'s are very similar to what he put up during his last season in HOU... i would have to say this is the absolute worst production you'll see out of him... i have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that he'll put up 20 / 5 / 6 type #'s if he were traded to NY, even playing alongside Marbury.

all that tells me is that there's an initial bump followed by some more malcontent. you have to keep this guy happy. he's a mental risk. chances are, we'll trade for him, he'll help us (although not at those #'s since the ball won't be in his hands as much), and then if we don't win, he'll go back into his malcontent cave.

these guys (francis, tmac, and vince) are weenies and need to be supported and coddled. is that what you want here? i don't.

Posted by TMS:

i'd take Vince, TMac or Francis over Crawford anyday... no one's looking at Francis to be the savior here, but he's a good tradeable asset who will be motivated even more to put up #'s the first year or 2 he's here & build back up his image... that's all i'm looking at... i'm not looking at Steve Francis as a longterm solution by any means... but it's an upgrade, & you can build up from there.

if the trade ends up moving crawford or q1, then the financial investment is not that bad. and talent-wise, we get the better player. but how will it all work out? it's a gamble...and one that could be viewed as a move of desperation. it's not about dumping craw or q1, it's about adding another high price, high ego, volatile player into the mix. this move seems like we're still just trying to upgrade talent without any real plan or building towards a certain style of play. a stevon franbury (i can't believe i just typed that) requires a revamping of our 3/4/5 spots.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 02-16-2006 9:23 PM]

Posted by TMS:

a marbury/francis backcourt (i can't believe i just typed that) requires a revamping of our 3/4/5 spots.

whereas a marbury/crawford backcourt doesn't? you're looking way too deeply into this one imho... the reality is, this team has MANY MANY holes to address... this isn't a be all end all trade to fix all of the Knicks' woes... but it gives you better options later on... remember, Craw's deal runs through 2011... Francis' contract ends 2 years sooner... that in itself is enough of a reason for me to make this trade... it's not as if we're giving up any picks in the process either... Ariza's future in NY is limited, i think we can all agree on that... i don't see much of a downside to it, even knowing all the personality baggage that comes w/Francis... i bet if the same trade were proposed for crazy Ron Artest, you'd be all for it, no?

all i'm saying is this, lb and isiah better take their time and better know what they're trying to do before adding a guy like francis into the mix. no, he's not as nuts as artest, i know. and we're getting the better talent in return. but i just want to make sure they make the deal b/c they're not panicking, that's all. so far, there are a lot of ties to jamal on this team (nate, eddy). so it seems like he was expected to be a part of this pseudo "rebuild." now whether the plan has changed or not, i'm not sure, but i hope that if it has changed, then it's not b/c of our record right now.

(btw, i'm not attached to anybody on this team. i'm all for making moves to make us better as long as there's a plan and vision. i think there would be a major red flags if frye is traded and would be upset if they gave up on lee and to a lesser extent nate, but we all know changes need to be made as the team's foundation is not built on defense - and you don't win titles without defense.)

for the record, i think it's about 70/30 that a stevon franbury backcourt would be a disaster waiting to happen...let alone stay together for more than 3 months.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 02-16-2006 9:39 PM]