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if you watched the game last night you see what I mean about Frye's rebounding
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fishmike
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1/26/2006  11:21 AM
Here's why I posted the trade. I cant say I am in love with it myself, because I am a big fan of Frye and think he eventually "get it."

That being said I think Ike is a starter quality PF and Pietrus is VERY good wing player, especially on defense. Fisher is a clutch shooter, makes good decisions and takes care of the ball. This trade is about replacing erratic players with more stable ones on a night in night out basis. Thats all.
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Bippity10
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1/26/2006  11:25 AM
Frye is a rookie and will be erratic because of that. The only reason other guys don't appear to be as erratic is because we don't watch them on a night in night out basis and analyze every move they make.
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Rich
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1/26/2006  11:25 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by SlimPack:

[quote]Posted by BRIGGS:

Frye is a really good rookie and will be a good player, but we made a HUGE mistake not taking Bynum. If you believe that defense and rebounding=championships, and realizing that no matter the short cut, we werent going to be a good team for a few years--we shouldve taken the guy with the higher upside on the defensive side of the court.

Teams that have good defensive players give themselves a good chance to win. Our ENTIRE roster is not built like that, so matter the mumbo jumbo that LB puts together it wont win because its not balanced.

does bynum defend and rebound? his stats don't reflect that.


Bynum will rebound and defend much faster than the Knicks will see .500 again. I dont see how , with our current roster, with this jalopy mess, how we will even sniff .500 for the next 2-3 years. Within the timeframe, Bynum will emerge as an elite nBA C, especially on the D.


It looks like the lakers are 17 & 6 when bynum plays 3 mins or more. can't argue with success or stats.

Given that he averages 7 mpg, 1.6 rpg, and 1.4 ppg, isn't it likely that he only plays extended minutes in blowouts?

[Edited by - Rich on 01-26-2006 11:25 AM]
franco12
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1/26/2006  11:30 AM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by SlimPack:

[quote]Posted by BRIGGS:

Frye is a really good rookie and will be a good player, but we made a HUGE mistake not taking Bynum. If you believe that defense and rebounding=championships, and realizing that no matter the short cut, we werent going to be a good team for a few years--we shouldve taken the guy with the higher upside on the defensive side of the court.

Teams that have good defensive players give themselves a good chance to win. Our ENTIRE roster is not built like that, so matter the mumbo jumbo that LB puts together it wont win because its not balanced.

does bynum defend and rebound? his stats don't reflect that.


Bynum will rebound and defend much faster than the Knicks will see .500 again. I dont see how , with our current roster, with this jalopy mess, how we will even sniff .500 for the next 2-3 years. Within the timeframe, Bynum will emerge as an elite nBA C, especially on the D.


It looks like the lakers are 17 & 6 when bynum plays 3 mins or more. can't argue with success or stats.

Given that he averages 7 mpg, 1.6 rpg, and 1.4 ppg, isn't it likely that he only plays extended minutes in blowouts?

[Edited by - Rich on 01-26-2006 11:25 AM]


Actually if you look at his game by game stats- that doesn't appear to be the case.

but then I don't really have any point to make except stats aren't everything...
OAK
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1/26/2006  11:39 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by OAK:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by fishmike:

Briggs.. would you do this:
Crawford/Frye for Derrick Fisher/Pietrus/Ike Diogu


I don't know why you would want to trade a rookie who has shown flashes of being able to be a 20pt starting power forward in the NBA for Derrick Fisher & some young guys that might not be in the league in 2 years, and if they are, might be role players.

what? Pietrus is a solid player who can be a defensive stopper. I really like his game, much more than Craw's. Diogu also will be a good player despite being undersized at 6-8(?). He has decent post moves already and is a good defender/shot blocker as well. He's not a pure shooter like Frye, but he can shoot it pretty well.


I gotta ask what is with the doube standard between Craw and Pietrus? Both have been in the league close to the same amount of time and both are about the same age....I can understand if you like Pietrus' game more as you said, I do to, but what makes him have all this potential and people on this board are willing to accept that he isn't a finished product and Craw is viewed as a disappointment tht will never get better?

Pietrus hasn't accomplished near what Craw has (and that isn't saying much)....I just don't get it.

Pietrus is in his 3rd season now. He's making $8mm over the next 3 yrs.
Craw is in his 6th season now. He is set to make $48mm over the next 6 yrs.

Pietrus' #s have steadily gone up over he last 3 yrs. He's already a solid defensive player. He's consistent. He's liked by many coaches & GMs.

Craw obviously cannot or does not care about getting stronger physically. This speaks volumes. This means he'll continue to be a defensive liability playing against stronger players. He's got talent but he's not a smart player. Nor is he consistent. I don't know how many coches & GMs want to have him on their teams.

i don't see a double standard here.
McK1
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1/26/2006  11:41 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by OAK:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by fishmike:

Briggs.. would you do this:
Crawford/Frye for Derrick Fisher/Pietrus/Ike Diogu


I don't know why you would want to trade a rookie who has shown flashes of being able to be a 20pt starting power forward in the NBA for Derrick Fisher & some young guys that might not be in the league in 2 years, and if they are, might be role players.

what? Pietrus is a solid player who can be a defensive stopper. I really like his game, much more than Craw's. Diogu also will be a good player despite being undersized at 6-8(?). He has decent post moves already and is a good defender/shot blocker as well. He's not a pure shooter like Frye, but he can shoot it pretty well.


I gotta ask what is with the doube standard between Craw and Pietrus? Both have been in the league close to the same amount of time and both are about the same age....I can understand if you like Pietrus' game more as you said, I do to, but what makes him have all this potential and people on this board are willing to accept that he isn't a finished product and Craw is viewed as a disappointment tht will never get better?

Pietrus hasn't accomplished near what Craw has (and that isn't saying much)....I just don't get it.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/mickael_pietrus/index.html

Pietrus is in his 3rd year. This is Crawford's 6th.

Pietrus is already a better defender. His percentage from the field is higher as well.
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OAK
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1/26/2006  11:44 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Here's why I posted the trade. I cant say I am in love with it myself, because I am a big fan of Frye and think he eventually "get it."

That being said I think Ike is a starter quality PF and Pietrus is VERY good wing player, especially on defense. Fisher is a clutch shooter, makes good decisions and takes care of the ball. This trade is about replacing erratic players with more stable ones on a night in night out basis. Thats all.

Agreed
joec32033
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1/26/2006  12:26 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by OAK:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by fishmike:

Briggs.. would you do this:
Crawford/Frye for Derrick Fisher/Pietrus/Ike Diogu


I don't know why you would want to trade a rookie who has shown flashes of being able to be a 20pt starting power forward in the NBA for Derrick Fisher & some young guys that might not be in the league in 2 years, and if they are, might be role players.

what? Pietrus is a solid player who can be a defensive stopper. I really like his game, much more than Craw's. Diogu also will be a good player despite being undersized at 6-8(?). He has decent post moves already and is a good defender/shot blocker as well. He's not a pure shooter like Frye, but he can shoot it pretty well.


I gotta ask what is with the doube standard between Craw and Pietrus? Both have been in the league close to the same amount of time and both are about the same age....I can understand if you like Pietrus' game more as you said, I do to, but what makes him have all this potential and people on this board are willing to accept that he isn't a finished product and Craw is viewed as a disappointment tht will never get better?

Pietrus hasn't accomplished near what Craw has (and that isn't saying much)....I just don't get it.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/mickael_pietrus/index.html

Pietrus is in his 3rd year. This is Crawford's 6th.

Pietrus is already a better defender. His percentage from the field is higher as well.

and Craw is 2 yrs older...my bad...
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realhiphop
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1/26/2006  12:26 PM
I'm unhappy with Frye's defense as well. Has anyone considered that it's been a big adjustment for him guarding the PF slot in the NBA. He played 4 years defensively as a shot blocked around the paint in college. It's a big adjustment coming out to guard PF's that can handle the basketball and play away from the basket.
Bippity10
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1/26/2006  12:36 PM
realhiphop: From a rational fans point of view you are correct. Not to mention that the NBA is an adjustment for a rookie to begin with. I think he will be a better defender with time. But he's young and the time is not now and in the meantime he must continue to work hard and watch from the bench when the matchups don't work in his favor.

KT, corliss and Miller were far to physical for Channing and it just wasn't a team he was going to play a lot against. But I'm with you as he adjusts he will get better. I just wish that fans would realize that not everyone is Lebron and comes into the game with all the skills from day one. Let the guy develop.
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attaboy2005
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1/26/2006  12:38 PM
Posted by fishmike:

He's always out of position and he doesnt body up on guys. 3 times I saw Kenny Thomas tip balls out to a Kings player on the perimeter. Add to that he cant defend anyone right now.

So if your wondering why his minutes are down its pretty clear to me

I really think it's because of the ticky tack fouls Frye received earlier in the season, alot of those were because someone else namely Rose was letting his guy get away so Frye was left trying to defend two guys so he would foul to try and stop a basket. What does this have to do with his rebounding?, well he is shying away from contact so he doesn't get those fouls called agianst him, so he can stay in the game. Does that make sense?, why not, the kid is a bit confused on what is legal and what is not!.
Bippity10
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1/26/2006  12:43 PM
Posted by attaboy2005:
Posted by fishmike:

He's always out of position and he doesnt body up on guys. 3 times I saw Kenny Thomas tip balls out to a Kings player on the perimeter. Add to that he cant defend anyone right now.

So if your wondering why his minutes are down its pretty clear to me

I really think it's because of the ticky tack fouls Frye received earlier in the season, alot of those were because someone else namely Rose was letting his guy get away so Frye was left trying to defend two guys so he would foul to try and stop a basket. What does this have to do with his rebounding?, well he is shying away from contact so he doesn't get those fouls called agianst him, so he can stay in the game. Does that make sense?, why not, the kid is a bit confused on what is legal and what is not!.


It's either that or the dog ate his homework.
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Bippity10
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1/26/2006  12:45 PM
No matter what the reasons/excuses are for Frye the truth is the same. He is not a good defender or rebounder and needs to become a better one.
I just hope that people will like me
Allanfan20
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1/26/2006  12:48 PM
His rebounding hasn't been very good, but I have to disagree on his defense. I think it has improved in recent games. I am watching the rewind right now, and he really didn't make too many mistakes. He does foul a lot still, but he's making strides. His offense seems to be quieting down a little though. His J seems to have been suffering a bit lately. BUt like I said, I really think his defense has been progressing.
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djsunyc
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1/26/2006  12:52 PM
what i notice about frye defensively is that he's just a tad slow in the reacting department.

is that something that's learned or is it just a physical thing where he's not quick enough?
martin
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1/26/2006  12:55 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

what i notice about frye defensively is that he's just a tad slow in the reacting department.

is that something that's learned or is it just a physical thing where he's not quick enough?

could be a recognition factor.
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djsunyc
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1/26/2006  12:59 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

what i notice about frye defensively is that he's just a tad slow in the reacting department.

is that something that's learned or is it just a physical thing where he's not quick enough?

could be a recognition factor.

i think frye recognizes what to do on those pick and roll but he just doesn't react fast enough...almost like he has some "stiffness" factor in him. but i could be wrong. am i misreading it?
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/26/2006  1:00 PM
No need to nitpick on the rook. He'll get better after making his deserved share of "rookie mistakes". He'll learn bto position himself better for boards.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
fishmike
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1/26/2006  1:06 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

No need to nitpick on the rook. He'll get better after making his deserved share of "rookie mistakes". He'll learn bto position himself better for boards.
pointing out fundamental flaws in his game is hardly nitpicking. He scores well right now and thats it. Its been a problem while he's on the floor, and it was a problem last night. I have said it 1000 times that I like Frye a lot and he will be a good player. I dont subscribe to this notion that he's an untouchable star in the making and I will trade him if it makes sense. I expect these areas to improve but its painfully clear that the concerns about him in CBB (defense/rebounding/toughness) are all legit and continue to be an issue at this level.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bippity10
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1/26/2006  1:16 PM
Frye is pretty mobile for a big guy, definitely more mobile than Charles Oakley and Charles seemed to find a way to cover his man. I think realhip hip hit it on the head in that Frye is learning to cover guys that can play on the perimeter. It's an adjustment and will take time. Unfortunately he has to see the same shot over and over again before he will be able to recognize it and then react to it quicker in the future. That's why rookies are maddening, they have to laern the game before they can respond quickly to it. He also seems to drift into the paint a lot as his man moves around the perimeter leaving open shots. When he goes out on his man on the perimeter the angles that he plays are almost always off, leaving him in danger of back door cuts and back screens. It's just obvious he's never played the perimeter and hasn't figured out how to properly cut out angles.

AS for his rebounding it's just far to inconsistent and I think this comes down to him having little boys strength as opposed to man strength. He was trying last night and he was just simply manhandled. Again, strength will come with time.
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if you watched the game last night you see what I mean about Frye's rebounding
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