I've gotta agree with Bip here. I hated the fact that LB was playing the vets ahead of the young guys but most of the players are playing with a better attitude and approach to the game for him than they have for past coaches. It can't be just a coincidence. If we had to have a losing record for the first third of Larry's first season in order for players to learn what they have to do to earn time, that's fine with me.

oohah - I'll agree with you about LB mishandling this roster through the first part of the season- but looking at his record, he doesn't have many loosing seasons and its impressive.

And I agree with you that everyone saying LB is making folks earn minutes, the rookies are learning to play right, he's breaking folks down- are just spouting an argument without anything to back it up with.

Now, given the effort the last four games, especially last night, I'm willing to accept that maybe there is a method to his madness.

But, that doesn't mean we couldn't have gotten here much sooner without our 7 21 start- that someone like a phil jackson, rick adelman or pat riley or rick carlisle could have gotten the team playing this way after 10 games.

And its not half the board your arguing with- I think its just about everyone!

Ooh aah noone is suggesting that DAvid or Channing did not play hard. That's just your over-reaction to someone disagreeing with you. What I said is that you always give your vets the benefit of the doubt and make your future earn it.

Not true at all. You keep saying 'if they play a certain way' then they play. If that is the case, then that means if they don't play, they are not playing that 'certain way' and the person in front of them is.

I agree that vets should get the benefit of the doubt. But for how long? 7/21? Seems like a long stretch to me. Quite a lot of benefit of the doubt.

And yes if Stephon did not come into my camp with a work ethic above and beyond my other PG's know he would not play. High school is different than the pros. Of course. Not a news flash. But you have to look at our team

Bippity, you can not have it both ways. Making the corollary, either Frye and Lee deserved the time at the beginning of the season based on their desire and work ethic, or they did not have the work ethic and desire and have acheived that now. Which is it?

We have a group of guys that were notorious for not playing hard. Notorious for having no fundamentals.

Except they all played more than the rookies who are fairly solid, play hard and are fundamental, except for NR who has gotten more consistent time even though he has been quite inconsistent at times.

Magically under Brown guys like Taylor are playing hard, Marbs is learning to lead and Craw is passing up jumpshots and driving to the basket David Lee(a career center) is hitting jumpshots.

I give Brown full credit for Crawford reigning it in. Marb is learning to lead is an early prediction. I think you have to give Lee the credit for working on his own shot unless you really think the head coach was the one shagging balls for him etc. Or does Brown's presence magically make Lee's shot better?

Why? Because we all of a sudden got the elusive unknown about rotation? Know because LB tells you how to play and if you don't play that way you sit.

I do not understand, would you rephrase please?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-11-2006 10:10 AM]

Oohah,

Your disertation and stat breakdown was a nice effort.

I don't know if you ever saw or knew much about many of his earlier teams, but your looking at stats and just commenting on the wins and losses.

What you don't really understand is whether some played over their heads or not.

With the cougars, that team was underfunded and they lived basically week to week somtimes not knowing if they are folding.

The Nuggets were a powerhouse and "ONLY" won 60 games the second season? Picky picky.

He also took them to the finals and they would have won had the nets not made a wonderful comeback! I think they did pretty good the first year in the NBA given the financial constraints of a 6 million dollar entrance fee to the NBA and the blizzard of cocaine.

Its also to be expected in 31 years, your gonna have bad years, injuries, and uncoopertive owners/GM's.

Rather than disect Larry's career I would try to understand the methoed by which he had to assume control of this team which is a very unsusual group of players given age and contracts, and not having any say in the roster due to signing on late in the process.

I think there are many good themes here and Bip is certainly on the right track.

Two weeks ago dudes were calling for his head. Two weeks ago some were discussing the improvements and how close most of the games were.

Eddie returning has been huge. Motivation of Eddie, Reezy, Nate, and Marbs in the press might be more deliberate than not.

Bottom line is yet to be determined. We won't know for perhaps two seasons as to how larry has taken to this team.

I like the Road win, but not overly impressed with the Cavs. But every victory elevates our team. At least at the moment we are not a "bad" team. How good still remainst to be seen.

it appears to come down to this, and correct me if I am wrong
oohah think LB is a good coach, but clearly mismanaged the Knicks through the first 2 months. The turnaround is a case LB correcting his mistakes and making adjustments.
Those that dont agree with oohah are saying that LB didnt mismanage the first 2 months, and what we are seeing now is a result of 2 months of teachings and benchings and yes, players are finally getting it.

I will say this: While people have generally agreed that Isiah has upgraded the talent we have seen guys come here and just do more of the same. Tim Thomas not rebounding. Crawford settling for 3's. Marbury not getting others involved. Taylor doesnt work hard on D or the boards, etc etc etc. Yet while the previous coaches have all preached these things, none have benched players for failing to do so.
oohah said himself Crawford is only playing better because he's now afraid to lose minutes. Well last night Larry scared him into 10 rebounds last night. Marbury has sat entire 4th quarters out. All these guys have spent time inactive or gotten DNPs for one reason or another. There is no doubt those benchings cost us wins. Obviously we sat more talented players while less talented ones floundered. So maybe LB game the Knicks exactly what they needed, and 7-21 was the cost of that message. Call it conjecture, opinion or whatever makes you happy, but the proof is in the pudding. Also, listen to players. They all to a person say they believe in the coach, that that the PLAYERS are finally getting it, and adjusting to the system.

I was as frustrated as anyone and essentially just numbed myself to the wins and losses. But I think Larry always knew what he was doing, and its starting to look like this was exactly what these players needed.

it appears to come down to this, and correct me if I am wrong
oohah think LB is a good coach, but clearly mismanaged the Knicks through the first 2 months. The turnaround is a case LB correcting his mistakes and making adjustments.
Those that dont agree with oohah are saying that LB didnt mismanage the first 2 months, and what we are seeing now is a result of 2 months of teachings and benchings and yes, players are finally getting it.

I believe that is a good assessment.

I will say this: While people have generally agreed that Isiah has upgraded the talent we have seen guys come here and just do more of the same. Tim Thomas not rebounding. Crawford settling for 3's. Marbury not getting others involved. Taylor doesnt work hard on D or the boards, etc etc etc. Yet while the previous coaches have all preached these things, none have benched players for failing to do so.

This may all be true (Or not), but it does not speak to the tall rookie's playing time vs. Rose and AD and the recent change in the style of play.

oohah said himself Crawford is only playing better because he's now afraid to lose minutes. Well last night Larry scared him into 10 rebounds last night.

Scared him into taking some decent shots. Into giving the ball up occasionally. Giving credit for JC's rebounds to LB is not being fair to JC.

All these guys have spent time inactive or gotten DNPs for one reason or another. There is no doubt those benchings cost us wins. Obviously we sat more talented players while less talented ones floundered. So maybe LB game the Knicks exactly what they needed, and 7-21 was the cost of that message. Call it conjecture, opinion or whatever makes you happy, but the proof is in the pudding.

And the pudding was 7/21. I like what I see now, but let's not get crazy.

Also, listen to players. They all to a person say they believe in the coach, that that the PLAYERS are finally getting it, and adjusting to the system.

Okay, let's listen to the Detroit Pistons: "Larry got too much credit for our team".

I was as frustrated as anyone and essentially just numbed myself to the wins and losses. But I think Larry always knew what he was doing, and its starting to look like this was exactly what these players needed.

It is not my intent to diminish anyone's happiness. Maybe another way to look at it is: "This is what LB should have done 15 games ago.".

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-11-2006 09:42 AM]

This may all be true (Or not), but it does not speak to the tall rookie's playing time vs. Rose and AD and the recent change in the style of play.

why not? Lee said he's been working on that jumper for months. We have enough PFs. LB to Lee: "when you can knock that shot down you will be in the rotation"
Nate's been a TO machine and playing out of control. Frye was terrible (and still has been at times) defending and rebounding. While obviously less talent AD and Rose are fundamentally sound players.

Scared him into taking some decent shots. Into giving the ball up occasionally. Giving credit for JC's rebounds to LB is not being fair to JC.

Agree 100% But its obvious that verbal prodding wasnt doing it. These guys needed to believe if they didnt play a certain way they would sit regardles of outcome or record. I would say that message got through.

Okay, let's listen to the Detroit Pistons: "Larry got too much credit for our team".

who said that, or who believes that? JD was sick of LB getting too much credit, but Larry never took any. He gave it ALL to the players. He told them he loved them. He told them they were great. He told them to "enjoy this." Billups called Marbury and said "Larry made me better. Be patient, it will work for you."
The season is long. Lets see Flip get the Pistons back to the finals. If they get knocked out in round 2 by the Heat or the Cavs (not saying its going to happen) maybe the media hype about the LB factor has some merit.

why not? Lee said he's been working on that jumper for months. We have enough PFs. LB to Lee: "when you can knock that shot down you will be in the rotation"
Nate's been a TO machine and playing out of control. Frye was terrible (and still has been at times) defending and rebounding. While obviously less talent AD and Rose are fundamentally sound players.

This is what I call mental gymnastics. "LB's presence made these players much better in 28 games!"

By the way, NR has gotten plenty of time, sometimes more than he deserved based strictly on performance, but I do believe in teaching JC a lesson. But that is a lesson that we can all see was deserved by JC, and it is not one we made up from our imaginations either. And isn't NR so much more effective when he gets to pressure the ball a little and run a little? He is big and the big boys are small! He is much more effective with the recent style change...by the way JC is more effective as well.

Agree 100% But its obvious that verbal prodding wasnt doing it. These guys needed to believe if they didnt play a certain way they would sit regardles of outcome or record. I would say that message got through.

I think the tough love with JC is well worth it. I don't understand the Rose/AD over-love from the first 20+ games.

who said that, or who believes that? JD was sick of LB getting too much credit, but Larry never took any. He gave it ALL to the players. He told them he loved them. He told them they were great. He told them to "enjoy this." Billups called Marbury and said "Larry made me better. Be patient, it will work for you."

I'll have to find the quote for you. It is true though. Joe Dumars deserves most of the credit for the championship, I don't know how that can be argued.

The season is long. Lets see Flip get the Pistons back to the finals. If they get knocked out in round 2 by the Heat or the Cavs (not saying its going to happen) maybe the media hype about the LB factor has some merit.

This year's Pistons are not the measure. The Heat are damn good and almost beat Detroit with a worse team last year. Who knows what the Nets have up their sleeve? What is Indiana up to? The real proof is made not by the coaches, but by the groups of players. You cannot win without the players.

oohah

oohah, you already have your mind made up, so your view of all the facts are skewed to fit your view point. Crawford says LB deserves credit. You say of course he's going ot say that. Ariza say's LB is frustrating. You say See what the players are saying!
If I get anything from LB's comments its that there was an agenda for every player. Some have made progress, others have not. Clearly Trevor has struggled with whatever it is LB wants from him, where Crawford has adjusted better.

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This sentence sucks because it dusputes the facts.

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This one is no good becaue it just attack my personal character.

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Brown sucks no matter what cause I say so! OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!

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Why don't go do some research and come back at me with why the sky is really blue, and don't give me the everybody says so poor excuse for research, oh you get and F...

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OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!

Posted by oohah:

As many of you know, I have been going back and forth with seemingly half the board about my view that LB mishandled the roster until about a week ago.

I have based my arguments on the games that we all watch: LB yanked the minutes from the vets, gave them to the youth, started playing a faster tempo and VOILA! a much better team.

My opposition's arguments have been based on four assumptions, one that nobody can prove/disprove and three that are totally false.

1)The assumption that nobody can know and therefore is made up is: The rookies had to learn 'how to play the right way' and once they did, they got the minutes and that led to the Knicks recent success. This view is conjecture and nothing else. I won't be addressing that in this post.

2)The second assumption is that the Knicks should have expected to start the worst of any team in the NBA because that is historically how LB teams are. They play badly for the first season or most of the first season then they explode as excellent teams. This is false.

3)The third assumption is that LB really is concerned with the long-term winning of the Knicks. This contradicts his entire career.

4)The fourth assumption is that LB 'turns around' or 'resurrects' franchises. False again. He is an excellent coach, but his success has varied.

Now to the facts:

Larry Brown's coaching record:

                     Reg Season      Playoffs   
 Year  Tm   Lg      W    L  WPct    W   L  WPct 
+--------------+-----+----+-----+----+---+-----+
 1973  CAR  ABA    57   27  .679    7   5  .583
 1974  CAR  ABA    47   37  .560    0   4  .000
 1975  DNA  ABA    65   19  .774    7   6  .538
 1976  DNA  ABA    60   24  .714    6   7  .462
 1977  DEN  NBA    50   32  .610    2   4  .333
 1978  DEN  NBA    48   34  .585    6   7  .462
 1979  DEN  NBA    28   25  .528
 1982  NJN  NBA    44   38  .537    0   2  .000
 1983  NJN  NBA    47   29  .618
 1989  SAS  NBA    21   61  .256
 1990  SAS  NBA    56   26  .683    6   4  .600
 1991  SAS  NBA    55   27  .671    1   3  .250
 1992  SAS  NBA    21   17  .553
       LAC  NBA    23   12  .657    2   3  .400
 1993  LAC  NBA    41   41  .500    2   3  .400
 1994  IND  NBA    47   35  .573   10   6  .625
 1995  IND  NBA    52   30  .634   10   7  .588
 1996  IND  NBA    52   30  .634    2   3  .400
 1997  IND  NBA    39   43  .476
 1998  PHI  NBA    31   51  .378
 1999  PHI  NBA    28   22  .560    3   5  .375
 2000  PHI  NBA    49   33  .598    5   5  .500
 2001  PHI  NBA    56   26  .683   12  11  .522
 2002  PHI  NBA    43   39  .524    2   3  .400
 2003  PHI  NBA    48   34  .585    6   6  .500
 2004  DET  NBA    54   28  .659   16   7  .696
 2005  DET  NBA    54   28  .659   15  10  .600
+--------------+-----+----+-----+----+---+-----+
  4 Seasons ABA   229  107  .682   20  22  .476
 22 Seasons NBA   987  741  .571  100  89  .529
+--------------+-----+----+-----+----+---+-----+
 26 Seasons      1216  848  .589  120 111  .519
+--------------+-----+----+-----+----+---+-----+

Breakdown:

Caroline Cougars 1973,1974: Cougars record the season before LB: 35/49. The Cougars had an excellent first season and got considerably worse in LB's second season.

Denver Nuggets (ABA) 1975,1976: Nuggets record the season before LB: NA. The Nuggets have a great first season under LB. They are still good the next year, but they are 5 games worse by record.

Denver Nuggets (NBA) 1977, 1978, 1978: The Nuggets were steadily mediocre with a declining record under LB until he leaves mid season in 1979.

New Jersey Nets 1982, 1983: Nets' record the season before LB: 24/58. The Nets improved under LB to mediocre during Brown's tenure.

San Antonio Spurs 1990, 1991, 1992: Spur's record the season before LB: 31/51. LB had a good record from his first season with the Spurs, due in no small part to rookie sensation David Robinson, who was allowed to play from the get go and he played great. LB leaves within 3 seasons, during mid-season once again, this time to coach the Clippers during the same season.

Los Angeles Clippers 1992, 1993: Clipper's record the season before LB: 31/51. Lb's Clipper teams were decent, no better. LB was gone in 1.5 seasons.

Indiana Pacers 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997: Pacers's record the season before LB: 41/41. The Pacers are a pretty decent team under LB, never anything great despite having Reggie Miller in his prime, Rik Smits in his prime and solid team throughout. They start out decent, get slightly better, then crap out in '97, Larry decides he does not want to coach there anymore...then the Pacers get much better under LB, Larry Bird: 58/24!

Philidelphia 76'ers 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002: 76'ers record the season before LB: 22/60. LB's first 2 season with Philly are abysmal, then the talent gets much better, and so does the team's record! In his best coaching job ever, LB's 2001 team escapes the weakest eastern conference in history and gets manhandled by the Lakers in the finals. The Sixers then drift back into mediocrity until LB is wooed by Detroit.

Detroit Pistons 2004, 2005: Piston's record the season before LB: 54/28. Larry takes over a Pistons team that had progressed from a second round playoff team to a conference final team the previous 2 years under Rick Carlisle. (Incidentally Carlisle took over a team that had a 32-50 record).
LB actually does worse than Carlisle until Rasheed Wallace is traded to the Pistons! LB takes this ready-made team to the finals, where the slaughter they injured Lakers who hate each other. In 2005 LB takes the ready-made Piston to the finals again and is stomped by the Spurs.

New York Knicks 2006: LB has the worst starting record of his career 7/21. New York fans parrot media regarding how LB starts slow historically, LB is a franchise saver etc. without having any idea of what he has actually done in his career or the context he has done it in.

LB is a great coach historically. But let us get the facts right please:

LB has had great starts and slow starts.
LB's success has been directly related to talent. Less talent less wins.
LB has never ressurected or turned around a franchise. He has done well with some, less so with others.
LB likes to move on. If you think he is looking towards long-term anything you are completely ignoring his career tendecies. He will leave any team at the drop of a hat.


oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-11-2006 05:52 AM]

Missing: Championship game, final four at UCLA

National Championship at Kansas.

Name the only coach to win a NCAA division one championship, and an NBA championship?

Oohah? Nope

Oohah! Scent of a women!