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LIVE from secion 404...and why we need to ship marbury out ASAP
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bigbeast
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12/27/2005  12:54 PM
Posted by Bobby:

i can remember all the cancer crap they were saying about kwame brown last year and i dont remember larry hughes, gilbert arenas, twan jamison or any other wiz player using brown's performance as a reason not to play.

this stuff about star being cancer is nonsense


I agree to an extent, but you can't compare Kwame's impact on a team to Marbury. Wiz was never Kwame's team. Larry, Gil, Jamison are all better than Kwame. Marbury is still the best player on this team. And the captain, and was told it was his team by Wilkens and Isiah.


I've always liked Marbury, but its clear he doesn't fit this so-called rebuilding team. By the time this team finally turns it around, Marbury may be on the down side of his career. It'll be best to put him on team that thinks it can win now. And bring a draft pick and expiring contracts back.
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Bippity10
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12/27/2005  12:54 PM
I don't pretend to know whether Marbury is a cancer or not. I know he is not a leader of this team but as a coach I don't think that is worthy of getting boo'd after a 21 and 5 performance. This may have more of an affect on our performance. Just my opinion.

Marbs may be a cancer. He may not. But my guess is that it is far overblown and I just have this feeling we are going to trade him to a contending team for scraps and all of a sudden he is going to "get it".

I just find it funny how if Nate shows energy when noone else is we say "Nate was the only one playing hard". When Marbs does it we say "Marbs is the reason our guys weren't playing hard".

I'm open to both views but it just seems like the fans and the media are creating havoc in NY because of losing. Havoc that may or may not exist. Again, I don't know. I'm just asking the question.
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Bippity10
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12/27/2005  12:57 PM
My game to game predictions are always wrong. But my team evaluations in the past few years have been so dead on accurate that anyone that has posted with me for the last few years that questions me should be banned from posting
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tkf
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12/27/2005  1:00 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:

Do you think Marbs' attitude is any worse than what it has been or do you think we think it's worse because we are harping on it more?


i think steph's attitude has been the same in ny sans his first 1/2 season here. he talked back to lenny in practice...leading to his firing. he wanted kvh gone. he went. he wanted kurt gone. he went. was any of this a result of anything the fans did?

i think marbury made an honest effort to do things the way lb wants. he has sacrificed alot of his game for the betterment of the team. during this process, the team was losing. fans get frustrated and are looking to point fingers. marbs is an easy target to vent our frustration. BUT what is becoming apparent is that steph, while trying to become an "lb type of pg" is becoming worse as his flaws are being exposed. again, during this process, the team is still losing. it was a test for stephon, b/c it was never about talent, it was the other aspects of the game...and he's failing it. i think his attitude is that of a guy that's "given up". i don't think he cares anymore. is that our fault? is it the player's fault? or does it lie somewhere inbetween? i don't know but ny fans have been the same FOREVER so we need thick skinned players that can strive in this environment. the fans will not change and teams have still been able to win here. if steph can't cut the mustard "attitude-wise" then it's time to move on and try to find someone that can.


I dissagree with that point. I don't think it was a honest effort at all. I will give you an example, there is this kid on my sons basketball team, the kid is a good scorer but doesn't pass the ball, but when he does, the team plays better and he still can get a fair amount of shots. when the coach told him to take less shots since the team was 1-5 with him playing like Iverson, he didn't like it at all, so in a half hearted attempt to play the way the coach wanted to, he would half heartedly bring the ball up court, and intentionally pass up shots and not even shoot at all, in an attepmt to prove a point. Of course this action hurt the team even more, and this is how I view steph, yea he is making it seem as if he is giving an effort,but he really isn't embracing LB's system, and it shows....
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Killa4luv
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12/27/2005  1:05 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I don't pretend to know whether Marbury is a cancer or not. I know he is not a leader of this team but as a coach I don't think that is worthy of getting boo'd after a 21 and 5 performance. This may have more of an affect on our performance. Just my opinion.

Marbs may be a cancer. He may not. But my guess is that it is far overblown and I just have this feeling we are going to trade him to a contending team for scraps and all of a sudden he is going to "get it".

I just find it funny how if Nate shows energy when noone else is we say "Nate was the only one playing hard". When Marbs does it we say "Marbs is the reason our guys weren't playing hard".

I'm open to both views but it just seems like the fans and the media are creating havoc in NY because of losing. Havoc that may or may not exist. Again, I don't know. I'm just asking the question.
That is exactly what is happening. Steph is being held accountable for the poor play of others and it is not fair. But its never fair. When Craw scores 0 points, no one cares. When Nate has 6 TO's no one cares. When Steph plays solid and a rookie backup has great night, Steph is booed. Not only that, but people here try to make it make sense. Its steph's fault guys are not playing defense. Its stephs fault Vince is dunking uncontested. Its Stephs fault Vince is cathing alley-oops off of inbounds passes. Steph is not amping these guys up, but he is not the reason they are sucking either. When are these other grown men millionaire athletes held accountable for their actions? Never, because its all Steph's fault.
martin
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12/27/2005  1:10 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I don't pretend to know whether Marbury is a cancer or not. I know he is not a leader of this team but as a coach I don't think that is worthy of getting boo'd after a 21 and 5 performance. This may have more of an affect on our performance. Just my opinion.

Marbs may be a cancer. He may not. But my guess is that it is far overblown and I just have this feeling we are going to trade him to a contending team for scraps and all of a sudden he is going to "get it".

I just find it funny how if Nate shows energy when noone else is we say "Nate was the only one playing hard". When Marbs does it we say "Marbs is the reason our guys weren't playing hard".

I'm open to both views but it just seems like the fans and the media are creating havoc in NY because of losing. Havoc that may or may not exist. Again, I don't know. I'm just asking the question.

Media aside, the fans get their input from game performances. We see guys play D, play on the O end, interact with teammates, and interact with coaches. In 3 of the 4 areas I just listed Marbury seems to not give a crap. That's where I, as a fan, get my input and would boo marbury not only as a leader but as a PG. It's the PG's responsibility to make sure the team is jelling and playing well, and I can certainly tell when guys are hitting shots they should and when the PG is not getting the ball to the guys he should in the places he should get them. It is Marbury's individual responsibility to play D, which I think I have seem him play for about 2-3 games' worth this season. I think I have seen Marb try to run an offense for about 6-10 quarters this season with any kind of success, and I would attribute a majority of the bad quarters to his ineptness as a PG. Marbury has said he leads through performance and I have seen less than 100% effort performance.

Can I boo him?
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djsunyc
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12/27/2005  1:12 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Bippity10:

I don't pretend to know whether Marbury is a cancer or not. I know he is not a leader of this team but as a coach I don't think that is worthy of getting boo'd after a 21 and 5 performance. This may have more of an affect on our performance. Just my opinion.

Marbs may be a cancer. He may not. But my guess is that it is far overblown and I just have this feeling we are going to trade him to a contending team for scraps and all of a sudden he is going to "get it".

I just find it funny how if Nate shows energy when noone else is we say "Nate was the only one playing hard". When Marbs does it we say "Marbs is the reason our guys weren't playing hard".

I'm open to both views but it just seems like the fans and the media are creating havoc in NY because of losing. Havoc that may or may not exist. Again, I don't know. I'm just asking the question.
That is exactly what is happening. Steph is being held accountable for the poor play of others and it is not fair. But its never fair. When Craw scores 0 points, no one cares. When Nate has 6 TO's no one cares. When Steph plays solid and a rookie backup has great night, Steph is booed. Not only that, but people here try to make it make sense. Its steph's fault guys are not playing defense. Its stephs fault Vince is dunking uncontested. Its Stephs fault Vince is cathing alley-oops off of inbounds passes. Steph is not amping these guys up, but he is not the reason they are sucking either. When are these other grown men millionaire athletes held accountable for their actions? Never, because its all Steph's fault.

you make $15-20 mil a year, it comes with the territory. h20 dropped 20pts a night and nobody could get past the $100 mil. ewing made declarations, and despite leaving it all out on the court, he made MAX money....it comes with the territory. you're right, it's never fair but should we be holding steph in the same light as craw and nate? should we feel sympathy towards a guy who BOASTED himself as the best pg again on SAS? some people like that bravado but all it does is hi-light the player's insecurity. i didn't boo steph b/c of his play, i booed him b/c of what happened during the nate altercation.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 12-27-2005 1:14 PM]
Bippity10
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12/27/2005  1:13 PM
Martin: "seems not to give a crap"

Key word seems. Is it reality or is it our perception because we hate the guy so much.
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Bippity10
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12/27/2005  1:21 PM
djsunync: We seem to think there are an abundance of stars that can take that kind of beating without losing confidence. I would say that 30+ years without a title probably means there aren't. I just don't understand where our arrogance comes from when we never win. If we don't get Ewing in the lottery what would this team have won since the early 70's?

Why is it so hard to support our best players?

The evidence is right in front of your eyes

1.)15 years of great play. Then we run Ewing out of town(don't ever forget the see Ew later signs) and we go from title contender to high lottery.

2.)We call Houston a bumb and say anyone can replace him. We boo him at charity events. We ignore one of the biggest shots in team history. We now have gone from having one of the top 3 shooters in the world to a team that can't make a jumper outside of 15 feet and now is a low lottery team.

3.) Now we are targeting our next star.

4.) When Marbs is gone the wrath will turn on Curry and Frye and the cycle of no championship banners will continue.

We are the only fans in the league that worship our role players
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martin
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12/27/2005  1:35 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Martin: "seems not to give a crap"

Key word seems. Is it reality or is it our perception because we hate the guy so much.

I am talking about myself and what I see, not so much filling in the "we" of the "we hate the guy so much".

Perception carries a TON of weight when you are the so-called leader on the court AND captain of the team. It is what it is. Teams can be OK when you have a misfit, but that's when the leader usually squashes that personality. If your leader is doing it, then you have problems and it carries over to other parts of the team. That's what I see, and why I would boo Marbury.
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tkf
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12/27/2005  1:44 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

djsunync: We seem to think there are an abundance of stars that can take that kind of beating without losing confidence. I would say that 30+ years without a title probably means there aren't. I just don't understand where our arrogance comes from when we never win. If we don't get Ewing in the lottery what would this team have won since the early 70's?

Why is it so hard to support our best players?

The evidence is right in front of your eyes

1.)15 years of great play. Then we run Ewing out of town(don't ever forget the see Ew later signs) and we go from title contender to high lottery.

2.)We call Houston a bumb and say anyone can replace him. We boo him at charity events. We ignore one of the biggest shots in team history. We now have gone from having one of the top 3 shooters in the world to a team that can't make a jumper outside of 15 feet and now is a low lottery team.

3.) Now we are targeting our next star.

4.) When Marbs is gone the wrath will turn on Curry and Frye and the cycle of no championship banners will continue.

We are the only fans in the league that worship our role players

yea, we do tend to mistreat our stars, I never understood that, I really was a Houston fan, one of the class guys in the league. We booed him for no reason, just stupid. I don't boo marbs, but would not mind seeing him shipped out. Today...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bippity10
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12/27/2005  1:47 PM
You don't think for an instant that we the fans and the media and all our negativity undermines our leadership? Coaches?

Just raising the possibility. I mean as a player if all I hear is that Steph is a loser and a bad leader and is getting boo'd after a while I may start losing faith in the guy as well.

My question isn't whether he is a loser or not. My question is, does he deserve the criticism he has gotten? Two years ago when he arrived we were winning and noone talks about his sulking. Two years later and that's all we talk about. Isn't it the same guy? Has losing changed our perception???? Are we really going to win simply by subtracting him from the roster? Didn't we think that about Ewing and HOuston?(don't lie).

My take is that the fans think we will become Phoenix and NJ when he is traded. My take is that it is time to trade Marbury. NOt for anything he has done, but because of the negative circus that his precense(deserved or not) has created.

I am a NY fan first. I don't care who is here as long as we are making advancements. I beleive in being fair. Based on the game last night Nate, Craw, Frye and Marbs should have been cheered. The rest of the team should have been boo'd.

But............we fans have as much to do with the negativity on this team as any one player. And for that I say BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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EnySpree
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12/27/2005  1:49 PM
- this is the first game i openly questioned what lb was doing? q DOES NOT deserve to start but continues to do so. i kept saying "it's lb, he's a career winner, he knows what he's doing." but i don't know anymore if he does. hopefully this will all make sense soon but i am VERY confused by coach.


Yes!!!!

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Bippity10
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12/27/2005  1:51 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by Bippity10:

djsunync: We seem to think there are an abundance of stars that can take that kind of beating without losing confidence. I would say that 30+ years without a title probably means there aren't. I just don't understand where our arrogance comes from when we never win. If we don't get Ewing in the lottery what would this team have won since the early 70's?

Why is it so hard to support our best players?

The evidence is right in front of your eyes

1.)15 years of great play. Then we run Ewing out of town(don't ever forget the see Ew later signs) and we go from title contender to high lottery.

2.)We call Houston a bumb and say anyone can replace him. We boo him at charity events. We ignore one of the biggest shots in team history. We now have gone from having one of the top 3 shooters in the world to a team that can't make a jumper outside of 15 feet and now is a low lottery team.

3.) Now we are targeting our next star.

4.) When Marbs is gone the wrath will turn on Curry and Frye and the cycle of no championship banners will continue.

We are the only fans in the league that worship our role players

yea, we do tend to mistreat our stars, I never understood that, I really was a Houston fan, one of the class guys in the league. We booed him for no reason, just stupid. I don't boo marbs, but would not mind seeing him shipped out. Today...

TKF see I'm okay with that opinion. If fans think we are better off without the guy than fine. Trade him. I'm loyal to the Knicks, not Marbs. My favorite player in the league isn't even on the Knicks. Whatever makes us better is great. But with so many guys playing like crap why do we have to blame Steph. Why not accept him for his weaknesses, appreciate his strengths, stop asking him to do what he can't, stop expecting him to be Kobe, cheer him and try to help him turn the ship around while he is here, boo him when he gives no effort and then ship him out if an opportunity comes along.

See your method I can get on board with. But creating this type of atmosphere and hurting our own team while we are at it is not the way to go.
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Bobby
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12/27/2005  1:51 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bobby:

i can remember all the cancer crap they were saying about kwame brown last year and i dont remember larry hughes, gilbert arenas, twan jamison or any other wiz player using brown's performance as a reason not to play.

this stuff about star being cancer is nonsense


I agree to an extent, but you can't compare Kwame's impact on a team to Marbury. Wiz was never Kwame's team. Larry, Gil, Jamison are all better than Kwame. Marbury is still the best player on this team. And the captain, and was told it was his team by Wilkens and Isiah.


I've always liked Marbury, but its clear he doesn't fit this so-called rebuilding team. By the time this team finally turns it around, Marbury may be on the down side of his career. It'll be best to put him on team that thinks it can win now. And bring a draft pick and expiring contracts back.

kwame was a #1 draft pick, he had just as much pressure if not more as star being captain. dixon apologized to coach eddie jordan for subpar performance only to shoot 30+ points the following day. and if any knick player thinks star is suppose to take them to the promise land, that player needs to speak to be traded.

star should not be larry brown's looking for mr. goodpoint either, that should not be the deciding factor for bad play and preseason rotation.

if larry still feels he needs to get rid of star, by some teams' standards star's contract may be more of risk than option.

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12/27/2005  1:55 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bippity10:

Martin: "seems not to give a crap"

Key word seems. Is it reality or is it our perception because we hate the guy so much.

I am talking about myself and what I see, not so much filling in the "we" of the "we hate the guy so much".

Perception carries a TON of weight when you are the so-called leader on the court AND captain of the team. It is what it is. Teams can be OK when you have a misfit, but that's when the leader usually squashes that personality. If your leader is doing it, then you have problems and it carries over to other parts of the team. That's what I see, and why I would boo Marbury.

But Martin, this flies in the face of the grand conspiracy against Marbury theory, and how if people don't like him it's because they are unwitting victims of it, or they don't understand the game, or they are simply blinded by hate and prejudice.

[sarcasm]Those are the three basic justifications for your 'mistaken' perceptions. Please pick one and stop trying to draw outside the lines.[/sarcasm]
tkf
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12/27/2005  1:57 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by Bippity10:

djsunync: We seem to think there are an abundance of stars that can take that kind of beating without losing confidence. I would say that 30+ years without a title probably means there aren't. I just don't understand where our arrogance comes from when we never win. If we don't get Ewing in the lottery what would this team have won since the early 70's?

Why is it so hard to support our best players?

The evidence is right in front of your eyes

1.)15 years of great play. Then we run Ewing out of town(don't ever forget the see Ew later signs) and we go from title contender to high lottery.

2.)We call Houston a bumb and say anyone can replace him. We boo him at charity events. We ignore one of the biggest shots in team history. We now have gone from having one of the top 3 shooters in the world to a team that can't make a jumper outside of 15 feet and now is a low lottery team.

3.) Now we are targeting our next star.

4.) When Marbs is gone the wrath will turn on Curry and Frye and the cycle of no championship banners will continue.

We are the only fans in the league that worship our role players

yea, we do tend to mistreat our stars, I never understood that, I really was a Houston fan, one of the class guys in the league. We booed him for no reason, just stupid. I don't boo marbs, but would not mind seeing him shipped out. Today...

TKF see I'm okay with that opinion. If fans think we are better off without the guy than fine. Trade him. I'm loyal to the Knicks, not Marbs. My favorite player in the league isn't even on the Knicks. Whatever makes us better is great. But with so many guys playing like crap why do we have to blame Steph. Why not accept him for his weaknesses, appreciate his strengths, stop asking him to do what he can't, stop expecting him to be Kobe, cheer him and try to help him turn the ship around while he is here, boo him when he gives no effort and then ship him out if an opportunity comes along.

See your method I can get on board with. But creating this type of atmosphere and hurting our own team while we are at it is not the way to go.


I honestly can't remember booing the home team, really I can't, just don't see how it helps, and booing marbs to me is not going to make him play better I root for him when he is on the floor, but I dont' mind seeing him on the bench as we play well, I am a knicks fan first as you mentioned. I want him to be traded to a team that he can really help and in return us get talent to fit our team and help right the ship. this would be the best scenario for me as a fan..


[Edited by - tkf on 12-27-2005 1:58 PM]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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12/27/2005  1:58 PM
when nate robinson had his altercation with vaughn, all the players on the court were involved. i look over to our bench...the coaches are up and talking and seeing what's going on. the players are up looking to go on the court but know they can't. they're all standing up, being restrained by assistant coaches and are all talking it up and being animated. everyone was all into it...except for one guy. that's right, your franchise player in stephon marbury. he was sitting on the bench with towels in his lap, and towels covering his head...just sitting there not giving a flying **** what was going on. no emotion shown. no getting up from his seat (while EVERYBODY else in the arena was). he was just sitting there in his own little world. my description is not doing justice but it was ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. to baseball fans, this was exactly like the yankees/redsox game from 2 years ago (the 14 inning affair). the redsox were challenging and every single one of their players were standing on the first step of the dugout as they came back in the game...every single one except nomar garciaparra who was just sitting on the bench in his own world...and probably the last straw in his career as a redsox. that was what steph did. not to mention his absolute reluctance to re-enter. if people were booing him b/c of his play, well i don't agree with that. but i think they were booing b/c of what he did during the squirmish that wasn't televised. i'm sorry everyone, and i don't care if i sound like a hater or whatever, but I WANT HIM OFF THE TEAM IMMEDIATELY. he is this black cloud over this team. i know moving him now doesn't mean we're gonna win but we're better off for it. i'm sorry, but that's just how i feel.


If this is true I hope Isiah noticed that if he was standing in his usual spot in the tunnel.

Also if this indeed was the case then I gotta say Marbury should be on the next plane out of here.

I love Steph....he is a true Brooklyn point guard with his style of play. But he ain't reppin Brooklyn with his attitude. It is truly sad......I believe Brownbroke him down and now he should get his wish.

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[Edited by - enyspree on 12-27-2005 2:05 PM]
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Bippity10
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12/27/2005  2:10 PM
The question is "Is it true?"

The other night when Ariza outlet the ball to AD and the ball went out of bounds. Marbury shrugged, Frye put his head down, AD threw his hands up, Rose laughed out loud, Craw covered his face in an obvious attempt to cover his laughter. The only reason I noticed all this is because Marbs shrug was so obvious I thought people would be pointing it out the next day so I slow motioned the TiVo. I was pretty sure noone noticed anyone else.

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SlimPack
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12/27/2005  2:20 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

The question is "Is it true?"

The other night when Ariza outlet the ball to AD and the ball went out of bounds. Marbury shrugged, Frye put his head down, AD threw his hands up, Rose laughed out loud, Craw covered his face in an obvious attempt to cover his laughter. The only reason I noticed all this is because Marbs shrug was so obvious I thought people would be pointing it out the next day so I slow motioned the TiVo. I was pretty sure noone noticed anyone else.

I dont think any of those reactions are bad or cancerous.
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