Posted by Bippity10:

I just find it funny how guys on this site screamed for us to draft players(some of whom aren't in the league and others that are but will never produce) and then turn around and call a guy an idiot for any moves he's made. I wish we could go back in time and listen to who everyone was calling for us to draft over the past few eyars. Personally 2 years into a plan I have no idea how it will turn out.

I remember when Dallas drafted Roy Tarpley and the world thought it was the greatest pick ever. After he kicked his drug habit he became one of the best players in the league. Then he started taking drugs again and most people on this site have no idea who he is. You can't judge trades and draft picks before they even get into the league or 21 games into their time on your team. We say forsight is genious but then we can Eddie Curry after 21 games. How do we know who he will become. If he was in the draft this year at 22 he would be the top pick(even with his current flaws) and everyone would be biotching about how we could never get a franchise guy like him.

I remember Tarpley well, I think he played at michigan, great PF in the NBA, he was on track to be the leagues best PF, I hate what he did to himself, truly hate it!!

Posted by Bippity10:

You don't have to like the contracts but it doesn't matter we aren't getting under the cap anyway. Shouldn't be that difficult to understand. Allan was here for another 3 years. We were not getting under the cap in that time. Isiah had two choices. Sit pat and let us watch Eisley and company for another 3 years. Or make a bold splash and try to win some games while allan was here. Does it agree with what you and I would have done? That's the question. But the guy took a chance and it didn't work out because of allan's knee. That's life in sports and only hindsight makes a guy an idiot.

Why do you take it as a point of fact that "we aren't getting under the cap"? I mean it's obvious we aren't now, but that didn't have to be the case then. Getting under the cap isn't something you do on a whim, it's something you plan and strategise for.

When isiah took over we had no one worth building around. Houston's knees were already shot and no one else was even a legitimate starter on a good team. If ever there was a time to rebuild it was then. The argument against it was that we'd have to wait 3 years for contracts to come off the books. Yeah, well, that's the right amount of time to be mining the draft and developing your core. After 3 or so years you have a better idea of what you've got, and if you're going to add expensive talent you've got a better idea of who would fit.

The net result is a lean and trim roster without the bloat of unmovable contracts.

And for everyone who things it's so damn impossible to get under the cap, or that we'd have to gut our roster and suck for years to come to do so, please keep in mind Grundfeld went under the cap to net us Houston (on a good contract), LJ and Childs. he also took us from 47 to 57 wins in the process.

Anyway, the point of all this is that a traditional rebuild maximizes the efficience of the three ways to obtain talent while our path works directly against efficiency: low draft picks, MLE free agency, and unmovable contracts, are inefficient means of improvement. But you want me to accept that building around a broken Houston justifies the difference? Sorta like building around McDyess and his broken knee justified trading Camby and the #7 pick?

Posted by Bippity10:

I look at the Dice acquisition the same way I look at the Marbs one. *I had no problem with the trade. Layden took a chance. It turned out to be a bad one. But to me I was okay with it because If Dice had been okay we would have cheered the trade. My problem with that trade is after Dice went down again, we still tried to build around him. That was lunacy, and that is a firable offense.

Being consistent I look at the Marbs trade the same way. The trade was made to work alongside Allan Houston. That failed. Okay, fair enough. Now I expect my GM to move on from this. I have an Eddie Curry trade and a Frye drafting and a Brown signing, that says he has changed gears and is now building in a new direction. This is what happens when you rebuild, not everything goes your way. This is why it's taken Chicago 6 years of losing and 3 different building directions just to get to .500 ball.

It's now up to Marbs to perform. I think he's giving an effort at this point. If he can't get it done than trade him. But don't trade him for garbage becaue that does nothing for us.

yea, I agree bip, I must be honest, I was behind the dice trade at first, although I had my reservations about his health, but when he went down, that should of been a sign, to move on, yea we lost the pick, and we lost camby, but at that point, I would of been looking to dump dice's expiring deal.

It came along made the big splash with marbs, it has not worked, we are moving in different direction with two young bigs and a host of young support players that have a future in this league, now is the time to take some lumps, waiting for things to get better with marbs may be IT's fatal mistake..

TKF: I hated the Dice trade but I understood that Layden was taking a chance and therefore was more than willing to give it time to see how it would work out. So I hated it, but I did not call Layden an idiot. That stareted after he continued to build a team around Dice after the second injury.

My take is this. People keep screaming about why we don't use the draft but if we drafted for the next six years would we come out with a group of players with more potential than what we have? It's very debateable. If 3 years of drafting brought us Frye, Curry, Lee, Robinson, Ariza and Butler we would all be ecstatic. This group has as much potential as any of the othe rebuilding teams. Now the question is how do we build around Curry and Frye. Do that right and everything changes!

Posted by Bippity10:

I'm okay with a trade, but I don't see how dumping him for scraps helps us. We are still over the cap and just got rid of our best player. Let Brown determine if he is a detriment to the team, not the media.

As for young players not being able to step up because of Marbury. Poppycrock. A true franchise potential player will take the leadership reigns from him. These are grown men, not sissy's, you have to earn it.

yup, a true franchise potential player should. that just goes to show you that we don't have one...yet. but maybe there is one in the midst that needs some time to come out or maybe we're just a collection of decent players.

look at pheonix - it looks like they needed a guy to lead that group of talent and they went and got nash. the nets needed one that could lead rj and kmart. they went out and got one. now we need somebody to lead frye and curry and help develop them. is it steph?

since you're a coach, can you give us some insight on how important having a leader out on the court is to a younger team? maybe i'm totally off-base on this one so can you shed some light on this?

as for lb - i think he pretty much said everything that can be said on how steph is not what he's looking for. "we have no head to lead our young guys" "we have nobody that can move the ball." etc. all direct hits at steph. he also does say "steph is doing everything we're asking him to do" and stuff like that. so it's not all bad but there's something clearly amiss.

Posted by Bippity10:

Djsuny: I agre with everything you said. We need a leader. That doesn't mean you trade Marbs for scraps just because the media says he is hurting us. IF Brown determines he is a detriment than he will be gone. It's that simple. But if the guy is trying is arse off and just coming up short because he's just not capable you don't dump that guy just to get rid of him. You hold onto him until a good trade comes up.

i agree with you also. we won't trade anybody just b/c the media said so. isiah and larry are f'n basketball people for 50+ years combined. they know what they're doing. if they decide they're not going to trade steph, then maybe there's a good reason why and i'm 100% wrong in my assumptions. and that's fine b/c i THINK i know bball but they KNOW bball.

so if they trade him, fine - it's b/c it's the best for the team in isiah's and lb's eyes. if they don't, fine - it's b/c it's the best for the team in isiah's and lb's eyes.

Posted by BlueSeats:

With such good drafting skills one would think he's emphasize that aspect of the rebuild. Instead he's mostly been running from it.

In the case of the knicks, if Frye is removed, Ariza, Nate, and Lee are good fr their draft position, but hardly a stellar group. But in no way was a 33 win record for the 8th pick in his game plan.

where would we be without Frye, our reward for failure of Isiah's intent? And where might we be with the three or four picks given up in the Marbury and Curry deals? where might we be if we built primarily through the draft and assembling an affordable roster of value contracts who were all movable on a dime and with flexibility to nab the numerous player who want to play for Zeke through free agency?

I've always had a problem with the Marbury deal being his first. Getting talent too soon hinders your chance of getting the high picks which give you your best chance to build through the draft. In fact, I believe a traditional rebuild offers the best chance to maximize talent acquisition.

1) First shed payroll where possible which has you get worse to stink it up and get high draft picks. That maximizes your effort through the draft.

2) Continue to shed questionable contracts to get near or under the cap maximize your opportunity through free agency.

3) After having a pool of fairly priced talent and future picks you are then in the market to try to land a stud through trade. If, as the last of your expiring contracts come to term you feel better talent can be had by trading them than through free agency you can do it, but it's not wise to make that assumption 3 or 4 years prior.

Thus, I believe the traditional rebuild allows one to maximize the three means to acquire talent: draft, free agency and trade. The path we've been on hinders opportunity by running away from high draft picks, running away from significant free agency, and clogging our roster with undesirable and nearly unmovable contracts. I see it as a rush to mediocrity.

This post should be stickied.

Blue - excellent post.

That model of a rebuild is the most effective. There are some things that I disagree with however with regards to the Knicks situation.

Firstly, I truly believe that the Knicks as presently owned, are a product more than a true sports team. An organization, obviously will reflect it's owners and, as much as some people like to lay the blame at Isiah's feet, the real onus should be placed with Jim Dolan. Remember, Isiah has a boss too.

I don't believe that Jim Dolan finds a traditional rebuild in the manner which you layed out as acceptable. That would involve losing massive amounts of money and no longer ranking near the top of Forbes most profitbale sports teams. I deduce this by the fact that, since he's been owner, he's been willing to throw gobs of money at players and management that will keep the Knicks ticket holders coming out even as the team itself is mediocre and insubstantial. While he would no doubt be thrilled to own a championship team, I believe he is far more concerned with the possibility of the Knicks falling into the basement and tanking, losing tons of revenue.

Now, Isiah probably is at fault for even attempting to somehow turn that terrible Layden team into a contender "on the fly" in spite of everyone telling him to rebuild. But I don't believe it's appropriate to fault him for carrying out his employer's wishes (even if he takes all of the heat). This year, after a year-and-a-half of style and flash over substance, Isiah and, more importantly, Dolan are being forced to rebuild. Unfortunately, it's too late in terms of cap space (although improvements could yet still be made). But he has acquired three to four quality ball players who not only could be great for our team but, also, whom other teams have expressed definite interest in. Personally, I don't think that trading away draft picks for Eddy Curry is such a big deal, but even if you do, it is still possible to acquire additional draft picks later this year or even for the 07 draft, which will be much stronger.

Secondly, while I too espouse your model of a rebuild as the most efficient one, it is not impossible to build a contending team while over the cap. Dallas has done quite well for themselves by drafting extremely well in the mid to late draft and assembling expensive cast-offs over the years (Dampier, Stackhouse, Jamison, Terry, Van excel, etc.) It has taken them a while to get to where they are, but they did it the same way that we're doing it. However (and this is not insignificant), the quality of their stars is superior to ours. Hopefully, over time, that will change.


Rebuilding takes time, whether done via a traditional way or a non-traditional way. I really believe that the acquisition of Marbury was done as a stop gap for financial reasons. Now that that plan has withered away, I would not be surprised at all to see Steph gone at some point within the next two years. We must have patience.

NewYork: I agree with everything you said.

That's true. Hopefully Frye turns out to be that piece.

While I would hope that our future turns out like Dallas's, the team that I think we most mirror is Portland. Both teams were spending astronomical sums of money with nothing to show for it and then fall into basketball oblivion. Only, portland is trying to amend their ways.

Posted by BlueSeats:

good points efw. I agree Dolan is the root of the problem. But at the same time, we don't know where the line between he and isiah is drawn. For instance, there was a point in time it looked like Isiah wanted Damp, Walker, and Webber all at the same time. I happen to think it may well have been Dolan who nixed us going for Webber, as he was sick of max contracts for bad knees. It's all open to speculation.

'it looked like' he wanted them all at the same time? Why, because that's what Isola and Berman said? It's been well documented that the Knicks didn't even make a play for Webber. Same goes for all the other players Isiah has 'coveted'. No one knows. The Post and Daily news defintely don't Hear the Daily News tell it Czar has been named the new Knicks head coach (circa Christmas '03)