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the pulse of the board - how many people want to keep marbury?
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bobs3304
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12/18/2005  6:17 PM
We don't need solely expirings for Marbury. Just players that have 1-2 years left on their contract.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind trading Steph to Houston for Swift, Wesley, filler(s), and a pick.

With the cap exponentially growing each year or two, it's not inconceivable to think it will be at around 60 Million by 08. If we can dump Q Rich for shorter deals (kinda like that rumored Washington deal) and Marbury for mostly cap space (Swift wouldn't help obviously), then I think we'll be in good shape.

It's not about BEING under the cap......it's about putting yourself into the position to get there if the need arises.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 12-18-2005 6:18 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
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fishmike
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12/18/2005  6:35 PM
honestly, I'm numb to this team right now. I just dont care.. they have sucked it out of me. I just dont care what they do. If they win a couple games maybe I will give a fart. I'm still watched because I'm drawn to it like a sucker in a bad relationship. I just cant walk away, even though every logical thought tells me too.

Thank god for the Giants right now
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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12/18/2005  6:38 PM
Posted by fishmike:

honestly, I'm numb to this team right now. I just dont care.. they have sucked it out of me. I just dont care what they do. If they win a couple games maybe I will give a fart. I'm still watched because I'm drawn to it like a sucker in a bad relationship. I just cant walk away, even though every logical thought tells me too.

Thank god for the Giants right now

Ain't that the truth.. I expected it to be rocky but 6-17? nope didn't expect that. I expected more along the lines of 9-14 right now. The Giants are keeping NY sports interesting right now.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-18-2005 6:39 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Rich
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12/18/2005  6:46 PM
If Larry isn't going to change his system to fit Marbury's skillset, yes, assuming it benefited the team and didn't further exacerbate the cap problems.
Bonn1997
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12/18/2005  8:47 PM
Posted by fishmike:

honestly, I'm numb to this team right now. I just dont care.. they have sucked it out of me. I just dont care what they do. If they win a couple games maybe I will give a fart. I'm still watched because I'm drawn to it like a sucker in a bad relationship. I just cant walk away, even though every logical thought tells me too.

Thank god for the Giants right now
Glad you're still watching. If Frye wins ROY, you'll be glad you saw our ROY player as a rookie.
Killa4luv
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12/18/2005  10:51 PM
Some people have made some decent points, but others wanna throw him under the bus. He is a huge part of the reason we are competitive in most games. He just has not been able to get us over the hump.

To trade him for less value (which is the reality) and not be even close to the hump, and suck, is a really stupid move because we have no pick in this years draft SA's. We can debate whether Zeke should have done that or not, but thats where we are. Only if the deal is right do you even consider it. For all of you guys that hate Steph and cry for a leader, I don't know where you think will happen when we trade him for Earl Watson and Eduardo Najera. We'll be worse than the raptors.

I still say wait to the deadline at least, I think we will be playing much better by then.

BigC
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12/18/2005  10:56 PM
We have nothing to lose by getting rid of Marbury! We only have 6 wins and Jamal was the leading scorer for 4 out of our 6 wins. If people say we would be awful if Marbury left, well just look at our record. It can't be any worse.
BigC's Knick blogs and Knicks highlights after every Knicks game http://fromthebaseline.com/
nykshaknbake
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12/18/2005  10:59 PM
That's assuming we don't take back any contracts unloading those, which is very unlikely. Also not replacing those players leaves huge holes in the lineup.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by bobs3304:

Well, for one, Marbs is a pretty hesitant 3-point shooter. That hurts in the long run b/c when Curry/Frye kick it back out all he'll do is fake the shot and drive, which is utterly pointless in that situation. Hell, if Jason Kidd can learn to hit it, then Steph should.

2nd, there's only so many scorers we're gonna need in the backcourt with Frye and Curry set to become our offensive targets in the future. Having a juggernaut froncourt is always better than having a juggernaut backcourt. And they're only 22....they WILL get better.

Third, since we are "rebuilding", it would be nice to have some cap flexability in the future. Trading Steph for cap space would allow us to clear out alot of salary, and try to normalize the situation.

unfortunately the grim reality is that the knicks receive so little bang for their buck, that the knicks wont have a chance of getting cap flexibility until 09/10, when marbury's contract expires, even if they trade marbury for exprings before then.

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-18-2005 4:54 PM]

in order to have capspace for the 07/08 season, we would have to unload marbs and 2 of these contracts(qrich,jc,rose,james). Thats also, with letting AD and Penny come off the books. Its not conceivable to be under the cap until Houstons contract comes off the books.
nykshaknbake
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12/18/2005  11:03 PM
I just don't see the logic in rearranging the entire team to have a possibility of being under the cap so we can sign a 8 million dollar player as opposed to to 5.1 mill player. So if we gave up 3/5 ths of our starting lineup and got an above avergae player(not a guarantted thing) we would still be a bad team. If you wanna rebuild, the best way to do it is to wait a bit untill being under the cap becomes more feasible.
Posted by bobs3304:

We don't need solely expirings for Marbury. Just players that have 1-2 years left on their contract.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind trading Steph to Houston for Swift, Wesley, filler(s), and a pick.

With the cap exponentially growing each year or two, it's not inconceivable to think it will be at around 60 Million by 08. If we can dump Q Rich for shorter deals (kinda like that rumored Washington deal) and Marbury for mostly cap space (Swift wouldn't help obviously), then I think we'll be in good shape.

It's not about BEING under the cap......it's about putting yourself into the position to get there if the need arises.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 12-18-2005 6:18 PM]
bobs3304
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12/18/2005  11:14 PM
^ There's a HUGE difference b/w having the MLE and having 8 or more million in cap space.

Yes it depends on the Free Agency atm, but it could mean the difference b/w Antonio Daniels for example....and Rashard Lewis.

Not only that, but it's never fun to suck and have the largest payroll (by far) in the league.

It's about respectability. It's about flexability.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
djsunyc
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12/19/2005  12:02 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:

For all of you guys that hate Steph and cry for a leader, I don't know where you think will happen when we trade him for Earl Watson and Eduardo Najera.

this i agree with. earl watson is nothing more than a backup pg and anybody who thinks he's "the answer" for us at the pg spot will be SORELY dissapointed.

i wouldn't like that deal. i'd almost just do it for jalen and toronto's #1 (which would be a lottery pick).

and it doesn't mean we'll all of the sudden start winning once steph is gone...but i do think we can finally assess what we have in our other players and maybe a leader can emerge from that group? who knows?
nykshaknbake
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12/19/2005  1:37 AM
I think the chances are if we had 8 million, we wouldn't be able to land a Rashard Lewis. Some teams get lucky and guess right, but alot don't. I really don't care about respectability...if other teams and their fans want to laugh at the Knicks, I could care less. Their opinion mean zero to me.
Posted by bobs3304:

^ There's a HUGE difference b/w having the MLE and having 8 or more million in cap space.

Yes it depends on the Free Agency atm, but it could mean the difference b/w Antonio Daniels for example....and Rashard Lewis.

Not only that, but it's never fun to suck and have the largest payroll (by far) in the league.

It's about respectability. It's about flexability.
bobs3304
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12/19/2005  2:06 AM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I think the chances are if we had 8 million, we wouldn't be able to land a Rashard Lewis. Some teams get lucky and guess right, but alot don't. I really don't care about respectability...if other teams and their fans want to laugh at the Knicks, I could care less. Their opinion mean zero to me.


First of all, hypothetically, if we had had 8 million in cap space this summer, we could've signed Curry outright instead of having to give up all those assets.

In general, any contract starting out at 8 Million can land you any number of impact players. It's not about guessing right....it's about showing the money.

And it's not about respectability to other fans.....it's about respectability to US.....
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
firefly
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12/19/2005  5:15 AM
I would rather keep Steph and get our coaching staff to utilize his talents better. Noone can argue that marbury is our most talented player. But he can only thrive in a certain type of offense. The ball needs to be in his hands, but someone else has to be able to make plays so that Steph can become a PART of the offense as opposed to BEING the offense. We have a coach in LB who has the experiance and nouse to be able to do that if he wants to. Playing a higher tempo offense where whoever brings the ball up ( see Crawford, Jamal) will look for the post pass or Marbury will not take away from Larry mantra of Defense and rebounding, and it will be benificial for Stephon where he doesnt feel torn between creating and scoring. Put it this way, if Ray Allen was a PG, he would have the same problems as Steph is having. Im not comparing the two, but their roles on their respective team sould be similar. Marbury should not be forced to choose between creating and scoring, he should be intergrated in our offense, along with other options. Trading Steph will not get us value back, and our coach should be able to simplify the game for him, to a point where his role is defined as scoring guard, not the only creator on the team.

So, in summation, keep Steph because he's very good, but dont ask him to create for the team, because he cant be both the architect and the builder. i'd rather he was intergrated into our offense, instead of being asked to hold the ball until he can score or find an open man.

[Edited by - firefly on 12-19-2005 05:16 AM]
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
joec32033
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12/19/2005  5:31 AM
I'd be open to moving him for a Caron Butler/Larry hughes type player and a unconditional pick...

I'd move him to ATL for Josh Smith and AL Harrington...

~You can't run from who you are.~
SlimPack
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12/19/2005  9:40 AM
Posted by firefly:

I would rather keep Steph and get our coaching staff to utilize his talents better. Noone can argue that marbury is our most talented player. But he can only thrive in a certain type of offense. The ball needs to be in his hands, but someone else has to be able to make plays so that Steph can become a PART of the offense as opposed to BEING the offense. We have a coach in LB who has the experiance and nouse to be able to do that if he wants to. Playing a higher tempo offense where whoever brings the ball up ( see Crawford, Jamal) will look for the post pass or Marbury will not take away from Larry mantra of Defense and rebounding, and it will be benificial for Stephon where he doesnt feel torn between creating and scoring. Put it this way, if Ray Allen was a PG, he would have the same problems as Steph is having. Im not comparing the two, but their roles on their respective team sould be similar. Marbury should not be forced to choose between creating and scoring, he should be intergrated in our offense, along with other options. Trading Steph will not get us value back, and our coach should be able to simplify the game for him, to a point where his role is defined as scoring guard, not the only creator on the team.

So, in summation, keep Steph because he's very good, but dont ask him to create for the team, because he cant be both the architect and the builder. i'd rather he was intergrated into our offense, instead of being asked to hold the ball until he can score or find an open man.

[Edited by - firefly on 12-19-2005 05:16 AM]

I couldnt agree with this more, but the only reason why I think it might be a good idea to trade steph is becuase larry brown for some inexpicable reason is dead set against using marbury at the SG spot. All I can hope is that marbury gets the hang of it like billups did but how long should we wait for that? But I agree with you that the knicks would be ALOT better off with marbury at the SG spot, but larry brown is too blind/stubborn to see that.

[Edited by - slimpack on 12-19-2005 09:40 AM]
Ira
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12/20/2005  4:39 AM
Posted by SlimPack:

[quote]Posted by firefly:

I couldnt agree with this more, but the only reason why I think it might be a good idea to trade steph is becuase larry brown for some inexpicable reason is dead set against using marbury at the SG spot. All I can hope is that marbury gets the hang of it like billups did but how long should we wait for that? But I agree with you that the knicks would be ALOT better off with marbury at the SG spot, but larry brown is too blind/stubborn to see that.

[Edited by - slimpack on 12-19-2005 09:40 AM]

I don't think Brown is against using Marbury as a 2. In fact he pioneered that concept in Philadelphia. But there, he had Eric Snow, who was a big point guard and who could defend big shooting guards. This is the problem. Marbury is a 2 in a point guard's body. Unless you find a big guard who can run the offense, you're going to match Marbury with a shooting guard and you have no one to distribute the ball. If you get another small point guard like Knight or Watson, you have no one to guard the big shooting guard of the other team.

That's why I think we've got to get rid of Marbury and get a real point guard. But that's also why you're not going to get good value for him. No other team wants to be in that position - and Marbury does have a very big contract. Trade him and get the best you can for him and start over. The Marbury experiment has failed.
bobs3304
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12/20/2005  5:38 AM
We shoulda signed Antonio Daniels to play point next to Steph...

But ya, obviously Brown doesn't like having Crawford next to Steph b/c they're both 2's playing PG, and both are defensively challenged.

I agree, anything short of a Billups/Daniels/Kidd type at PG, and we should be trading Steph.

Let's build on our 2 low post scorers (Frye and Curry) and surround them with defense and solid rolee players.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 12-20-2005 05:40 AM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
GoNyGoNyGo
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12/20/2005  7:54 AM
Posted by fishmike:

honestly, I'm numb to this team right now. I just dont care.. they have sucked it out of me. I just dont care what they do. If they win a couple games maybe I will give a fart. I'm still watched because I'm drawn to it like a sucker in a bad relationship. I just cant walk away, even though every logical thought tells me too.

Thank god for the Giants right now


Man, I know how you feel, if it wasn't so sad for us fans it would be pretty funny.

As for Marbury, I have recently stated that he needs to go. His attitude is holding this team back. The kid has talent but his head is keeping him from being the player he can be. It all came crashing down him a year ago when he said "...Best PG".

As for the Giants, Eli better bring his game because the team will need him in the playoffs.
SlimPack
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12/20/2005  8:23 AM
Posted by Ira:
Posted by SlimPack:

[quote]Posted by firefly:

I couldnt agree with this more, but the only reason why I think it might be a good idea to trade steph is becuase larry brown for some inexpicable reason is dead set against using marbury at the SG spot. All I can hope is that marbury gets the hang of it like billups did but how long should we wait for that? But I agree with you that the knicks would be ALOT better off with marbury at the SG spot, but larry brown is too blind/stubborn to see that.

[Edited by - slimpack on 12-19-2005 09:40 AM]

I don't think Brown is against using Marbury as a 2. In fact he pioneered that concept in Philadelphia. But there, he had Eric Snow, who was a big point guard and who could defend big shooting guards. This is the problem. Marbury is a 2 in a point guard's body. Unless you find a big guard who can run the offense, you're going to match Marbury with a shooting guard and you have no one to distribute the ball. If you get another small point guard like Knight or Watson, you have no one to guard the big shooting guard of the other team.

That's why I think we've got to get rid of Marbury and get a real point guard. But that's also why you're not going to get good value for him. No other team wants to be in that position - and Marbury does have a very big contract. Trade him and get the best you can for him and start over. The Marbury experiment has failed.

I dont agree with the first part of what you said though, there numerous times this year when brown started marbury and nate robinson together, if brwon is so worried about marbury having to guard a two guard on defense to move him to the 2 guard spot then why would he start nate and marbs together? geez larry brown must think that crawford is a really dumb pg. either that or he just doesnt like him.
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