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man...we should've never traded kurt thomas
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Bonn1997
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12/16/2005  11:59 PM
Posted by Knicksfan:

Everybody praises Isiah for making a great move in getting both Nate and Q for Kurt. Most claim its the first time in a while that we get the better end of the deal, and all agree that it was a no-brainer.

Now it was a terrible trade by Isiah because the Knicks suck? Like they didn't suck last year with him? Like they were so tough and so great defensively with him? Please! This is just a reaction for our recent play. Next thing will be questioning his picks, remembering who was still avaliable.

Give me a break! It was a good move no matter how much Q has sucked this season or how much out of control Nate plays. It was a move for the future. Im sure if we traded Davis for a young player right now and went on to have a 10 game losing streak everybody would start missing Davis and call for Isiahs head. I hate this stretch of losing as much as you, but tell me, do you really believe Kurt alone would've made us a winning team?
Well-put. It was a move for the future. Q and Nate will be nice contributors for years after Kurt's retired. We'd be a lottery team with Kurt and you know Larry would love Kurt and play him tons of min ahead of our young players. He'll give veterans every opportunity to play until they prove themselves to be incompetent (which AD did, freeing up time for Frye but which Kurt wouldn't do--he's not that bad).

AUTOADVERT
djsunyc
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12/17/2005  12:01 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:

Everybody praises Isiah for making a great move in getting both Nate and Q for Kurt. Most claim its the first time in a while that we get the better end of the deal, and all agree that it was a no-brainer.

Now it was a terrible trade by Isiah because the Knicks suck? Like they didn't suck last year with him? Like they were so tough and so great defensively with him? Please! This is just a reaction for our recent play. Next thing will be questioning his picks, remembering who was still avaliable.

Give me a break! It was a good move no matter how much Q has sucked this season or how much out of control Nate plays. It was a move for the future. Im sure if we traded Davis for a young player right now and went on to have a 10 game losing streak everybody would start missing Davis and call for Isiahs head. I hate this stretch of losing as much as you, but tell me, do you really believe Kurt alone would've made us a winning team?

one question...if q and/or nate are gone within 2 years, what would you say about the trade then?

listen to me, kurt thomas was traded b/c of his problems with steph. this was the FIRST deal to come across isiah's plate (remember, colangelo CALLED HIM). isiah jumped on it. this is not opinion or speculation. it's FACT. it had nothing to do with building for the future.
Bonn1997
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12/17/2005  12:03 AM
one question...if q and/or nate are gone within 2 years, what would you say about the trade then?
how can anyone answer that without knowing who they'd be traded for?

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12-17-2005 12:03 AM]
jaydh
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12/17/2005  12:04 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Knicksfan:

Everybody praises Isiah for making a great move in getting both Nate and Q for Kurt. Most claim its the first time in a while that we get the better end of the deal, and all agree that it was a no-brainer.

Now it was a terrible trade by Isiah because the Knicks suck? Like they didn't suck last year with him? Like they were so tough and so great defensively with him? Please! This is just a reaction for our recent play. Next thing will be questioning his picks, remembering who was still avaliable.

Give me a break! It was a good move no matter how much Q has sucked this season or how much out of control Nate plays. It was a move for the future. Im sure if we traded Davis for a young player right now and went on to have a 10 game losing streak everybody would start missing Davis and call for Isiahs head. I hate this stretch of losing as much as you, but tell me, do you really believe Kurt alone would've made us a winning team?

one question...if q and/or nate are gone within 2 years, what would you say about the trade then?

listen to me, kurt thomas was traded b/c of his problems with steph. this was the FIRST deal to come across isiah's plate (remember, colangelo CALLED HIM). isiah jumped on it. this is not opinion or speculation. it's FACT. it had nothing to do with building for the future.

well, considering the deal went down on draft night, isiah had to take this deal if he wanted another draft pick.

islesfan
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12/17/2005  12:04 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Knicksfan:

Everybody praises Isiah for making a great move in getting both Nate and Q for Kurt. Most claim its the first time in a while that we get the better end of the deal, and all agree that it was a no-brainer.

Now it was a terrible trade by Isiah because the Knicks suck? Like they didn't suck last year with him? Like they were so tough and so great defensively with him? Please! This is just a reaction for our recent play. Next thing will be questioning his picks, remembering who was still avaliable.

Give me a break! It was a good move no matter how much Q has sucked this season or how much out of control Nate plays. It was a move for the future. Im sure if we traded Davis for a young player right now and went on to have a 10 game losing streak everybody would start missing Davis and call for Isiahs head. I hate this stretch of losing as much as you, but tell me, do you really believe Kurt alone would've made us a winning team?
Well-put. It was a move for the future. Q and Nate will be nice contributors for years after Kurt's retired. We'd be a lottery team with Kurt and you know Larry would love Kurt and play him tons of min ahead of our young players. He'll give veterans every opportunity to play until they prove themselves to be incompetent (which AD did, freeing up time for Frye but which Kurt wouldn't do--he's not that bad).

We just disproved your little theory that KT would steal minutes from Frye and yet you still insist on spewing the same garbage.

Q and Nate will be contributors for years even though Q looks shot and Nate is a 5'7 SG? I guess it could happen but nobody is counting on those 2 being contributors and if they are we're in deep deep trouble.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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12/17/2005  12:06 AM
listen to me, kurt thomas was traded b/c of his problems with steph. this was the FIRST deal to come across isiah's plate (remember, colangelo CALLED HIM). isiah jumped on it. this is not opinion or speculation. it's FACT. it had nothing to do with building for the future.
I don't get that reasoning. Why does the fact that Colangelo made the call mean it had nothing to do with building for the future? If Isiah didn't think the trade would help to build for the future, he'd just end the conversation that Colangelo initiated.
Bonn1997
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12/17/2005  12:12 AM
Isles, let's say we have Kurt. First, What per game min distribution would you expect Larry to use for Kurt, Jerome James, Mo Taylor, David Lee, Jackie butler, Antonio Davis, and Malik Rose? Second, what minute distrubtion would you use? I'm VERY curious to see how the vetrans would still be getting minutes, all the young players would be getting minutes, and the total would add up to 96 mpg (48 for PF, 48 for C).
Knicksfan
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12/17/2005  12:18 AM
Posted by djsunyc:


one question...if q and/or nate are gone within 2 years, what would you say about the trade then?

listen to me, kurt thomas was traded b/c of his problems with steph. this was the FIRST deal to come across isiah's plate (remember, colangelo CALLED HIM). isiah jumped on it. this is not opinion or speculation. it's FACT. it had nothing to do with building for the future.

Well, the answer to that question depends on what we get for them, but thats all guessing from your part and my part. I can only talk about what is happening now and the truth is that KT wasn't getting any younger nor any better, and since the Knicks moved in the direction of rebuilding, its a no-brainer to make a trade that gives you a young solid player and a 1st round draft pick on a strong draft.

Come on! People saw how bad we were in the last years and how hopeless we were. Almost everyone wanted Layden gone because he wouldn't rebuild the Knicks. Isiah is trying to do so now, we suck because we are going to the youth movement and then people start longing for the old players traded? Come on! I understand this is a tough time to be a Knicks fan and that its so frustrating. But even if the roster is flawed, many of the moves Isiah has done, all of the ones where we have gotten younger, have been good ones. Do the pieces still don't mesh? Nope, but at least we have young and talented pieces to build the team again.

And what tells you this was the first trade he was proposed? If we are going by the rumors then you have to include the many rumors we had during the season about KT being shopped and some trade scenarios being discussed. He jumped on the one that brought him youth and talent, whichwas a good move.
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12/17/2005  12:23 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

what is nate's role with us? a 15 min player off the bench?
and what about q? he's a glorified role player. that's it.

WE NEED KURT THOMAS!!! if we had kurt, we wouldn't have signed jerome. frye would be able to come off the bench as he is a defensive liability.

this trade is kicking us in the ass. another move to appease steph.

(fyi, this was the FIRST deal to come across isiah's plate for kurt and he took it.)

[Edited by - djsunyc on 12-16-2005 11:04 PM]

You can't go back to change this trade so it's really a waste of time even thinking about what could be if the trade never went down, that kind of thinking will get you in the looney bin, so just forget about it. We need to find away to support our team, to hold our heads high, drop to our knees and beg for forgiveness for all our sins then tell God to help this team out of it's funk, after you tell him that you'll never do it again, just help our Knicks thru this hard time.

islesfan
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12/17/2005  12:25 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Isles, let's say we have Kurt. First, What per game min distribution would you expect Larry to use for Kurt, Jerome James, Mo Taylor, David Lee, Jackie butler, Antonio Davis, and Malik Rose? Second, what minute distrubtion would you use? I'm VERY curious to see how the vetrans would still be getting minutes, all the young players would be getting minutes, and the total would add up to 96 mpg (48 for PF, 48 for C).

You broke it down yourself about an hour ago with KT and Frye in the same frontcourt with both getting 25-30 minutes a game. Why are you so worried about the washed up veterans and backups instead of KT and Frye. If they're the best options then they'll get minutes and the others will fight for their scraps. And who's to say that Frye can't play some at the SF position? He's a jumpshooting offensive player so putting Frye, KT and EC in the lineup at the same time is hardly unreasonable which would make the distribution of minutes even simpler.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Knicksfan
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12/17/2005  12:28 AM
Posted by islesfan:


We just disproved your little theory that KT would steal minutes from Frye and yet you still insist on spewing the same garbage.

Q and Nate will be contributors for years even though Q looks shot and Nate is a 5'7 SG? I guess it could happen but nobody is counting on those 2 being contributors and if they are we're in deep deep trouble.

Lets find any reason to critizice Isiah no matter if it makes sense or not.

Tell me again how great has KT been for the Phoenix that we miss him so much? We would such as much or even more with him on the Knicks, so whats the point on longing for him? Q looks shot? Yeah, lets say that and forget the tough time he has had personally. Players are still human and feel, don't you think? And calling Q, who is still in his 20's, shot is just weak because tell me, you really think he won't improve and play better at some point as he is still a young player? Please! And Nate, yeah he is a 5'7" Sg that happens to be learning a position he has never been demanded to play before. The guy is amazingly talented but happens to play out of control because he is a rookie. Yeah, lets start demanding him to play like a veteran point guard on his first year in the pros. The guy is a momentum changer and great defender. You would already give up on him? Then what would you do in NY as a GM, trade every young player for veterans ala Layden? Such a great philosophy compared to Isiah's.

At least Isiah is really trying to rebuild NY with good young talent. He thought we were still good enough to be competitive this season and may have been mistaken, but he is still committing to getting younger and rebuilding NY. He hasn't always done good trades, thats true. But deals like the KT trade are the ones we need to turn around this franchise...
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Bonn1997
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12/17/2005  12:33 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Isles, let's say we have Kurt. First, What per game min distribution would you expect Larry to use for Kurt, Jerome James, Mo Taylor, David Lee, Jackie butler, Antonio Davis, and Malik Rose? Second, what minute distrubtion would you use? I'm VERY curious to see how the vetrans would still be getting minutes, all the young players would be getting minutes, and the total would add up to 96 mpg (48 for PF, 48 for C).

You broke it down yourself about an hour ago with KT and Frye in the same frontcourt with both getting 25-30 minutes a game. Why are you so worried about the washed up veterans and backups instead of KT and Frye. If they're the best options then they'll get minutes and the others will fight for their scraps. And who's to say that Frye can't play some at the SF position? He's a jumpshooting offensive player so putting Frye, KT and EC in the lineup at the same time is hardly unreasonable which would make the distribution of minutes even simpler.

Why am I concerned about giving the veterans minutes? I'm not but obviously Larry is and he's the coach. I broke the min down where AD and Frye sharing 33 mpg and zero being left over for David Lee. That's hardly acceptable to anyone who wants to rebuild for the future by giving young players minutes. Nice try, though. Now your turn to come up with minute distributions that you think Larry would have if we had those seven PF/Cs including Kurt.
islesfan
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12/17/2005  12:44 AM
There you go with the reading comprehension problems again. I just broke it down using your own example's numbers. The useless veterans get to show off their suits every couple of games and Frye, KT and EC get the majority of the minutes with Frye getting some burn at the SF position as well. You can throw 5-10 minutes Lee's way if you want but they aren't going to be at the expense of Frye.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
gunsnewing
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12/17/2005  4:50 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I love the thought of having Kurt so that Channing can get about 12 mpg and we can squeeze out a few meaningless victories

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12-16-2005 10:58 PM]


exactly! ughhhhhhhhhh!
Rich
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12/17/2005  8:03 AM
Thomas would have blocked Frye.
djsunyc
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12/17/2005  10:21 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:

And what tells you this was the first trade he was proposed? If we are going by the rumors then you have to include the many rumors we had during the season about KT being shopped and some trade scenarios being discussed. He jumped on the one that brought him youth and talent, whichwas a good move.


not rumors. it was the first trade he was proposed. (this was something that was told to me)

i know it's all hindsight and kurt isn't getting any younger, and this post seems totally knee jerk BUT putting kurt WITH frye and curry makes kurt 10X more effective, don't you think? putting kurt with nazr and doleac doesn't do jack but he really would've helped us out big time this year.

i guess this post shold've said "i WISH we still had kurt" but you get my point.
McK1
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12/17/2005  10:43 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:



Tell me again how great has KT been for the Phoenix that we miss him so much?

Kurt this season

27 mpg 47% from the field 74% from the line 9.5 ppg 8.8 reb 1.1 blks 1 asst

great numbers for a guy in his role with the Suns

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kurt_thomas/index.html

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-17-2005 10:44 AM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Pharzeone
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12/17/2005  11:52 AM
Posted by martin:

holy knee jerk batman. Agree with the Bonn.

The Knicks are sucking but do we have to regress to hating every past trade?

Frye is not the best at defense, but the only way he is going to learn is to play. The only way Curry and Frye are going to learn to play together is to get minutes together.

Chill DJ, chill.

That's why Checketts, and all GMs, and presidents like him in the past have said you can't rebuild in NY. YOu will never satisfy anyone. My major concern is with the coach because this team has had worst talent and still found ways to win. Something weird is going on with this guy and this team. He seems more content in losing and complaining.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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12/17/2005  11:53 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I love the thought of having Kurt so that Channing can get about 12 mpg and we can squeeze out a few meaningless victories

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12-16-2005 10:58 PM]

12 minutes? How do you figure? Between center and PF there are 96 minutes. Curry is never good for more than 30. Figure KT for 30 as well. That's 36 minutes and he's averaging 28 right now. Where are you getting 12 from? I'm pretty sure that even with KT still here Frye would still be getting very similar minutes.

That's true.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
djsunyc
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12/17/2005  11:55 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by martin:

holy knee jerk batman. Agree with the Bonn.

The Knicks are sucking but do we have to regress to hating every past trade?

Frye is not the best at defense, but the only way he is going to learn is to play. The only way Curry and Frye are going to learn to play together is to get minutes together.

Chill DJ, chill.

That's why Checketts, and all GMs, and presidents like him in the past have said you can't rebuild in NY. YOu will never satisfy anyone. My major concern is with the coach because this team has had worst talent and still found ways to win. Something weird is going on with this guy and this team. He seems more content in losing and complaining.

it's issue is not about rebuilding, it's about making SMART basketball decisions.
man...we should've never traded kurt thomas

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