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whats your (realistic) plan to salvage this season...
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islesfan
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12/16/2005  10:15 AM
I like Frye but he's not good enough. He's a complimentary player. It would be a big mistake to cast him in that role. He's a nice jump shooting big man but he doesn't do nearly enough of anything else. But that's just his ceiling.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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BlueSeats
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12/16/2005  10:58 AM
I wouldn't make wholesale changes, but I would chip away at a couple of things.

I really can't assess what we've got until Marbury is moved. He's a chemistry killer. People say he's not a leader; he is, he's a negative leader. Don't doubt for a second the power of his discontent.

If you can get an expiring and a pick you jump at it; otherwise get a self starter with some IQ. But no more headcases, not until we have a tight structure to fit them into. Winning culture can absorb a guy like Rodman, or whoever, but on a fledging infant like us it's just adding chaos into mahem.

Then see what we've got with Crawford. I'd give him a shot at PG, I think he can feed the interior, which is crucial for us, but i don't really care what role he's in, just suss him out to see if he's a keeper.

Don't worry about the record as an end to itself, but do continue to do everything possible to make a winning culture. Win for the sake of learning to win, but don't make rash moves to 'salvage the season'.

No more reclamation projects. If you can get a keeper or a prospect that looks like he's got the winning mentality with one of our expirings, okay, otherwise look for picks, or otherwise just stand pat and see how our guys develop.

Don't salvage the season, look to salvage the franchise.
Knight
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12/16/2005  11:01 AM
^After hearing LB's criticism's of our point guards, I highly highly doubt Crawford will ever be a point guard for us--Crawford does not have the ability to recognize different defensive sets and call out plays and still be Crawford--that loosey goosey offensive minded Crawford. If LB has to call out plays for Marbury on the sideline, you better believe Craw will be no better.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
martin
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12/16/2005  11:15 AM
Posted by islesfan:

I like Frye but he's not good enough. He's a complimentary player. It would be a big mistake to cast him in that role. He's a nice jump shooting big man but he doesn't do nearly enough of anything else. But that's just his ceiling.

come on now. 20 games and we know his ceiling? Before the year started we didn't even know he could shoot this well. I remember Bosh SUCKED the first half of his rookie year.

The guy works hard at improving. He is developing a post game - something that was non-existant for him at college. He will put on muscle to fill out and become better at rebounding. He will get that baby hook down. His understanding of PF weakside D will improve (something else he didn't do in college).

Wasn't Frye a C in college? PF is entirely different. He has to guard guys out onto the 3-point line (Garrity). That's something he is working on.
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SlimPack
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12/16/2005  11:21 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

I like Frye but he's not good enough. He's a complimentary player. It would be a big mistake to cast him in that role. He's a nice jump shooting big man but he doesn't do nearly enough of anything else. But that's just his ceiling.

come on now. 20 games and we know his ceiling? Before the year started we didn't even know he could shoot this well. I remember Bosh SUCKED the first half of his rookie year.

The guy works hard at improving. He is developing a post game - something that was non-existant for him at college. He will put on muscle to fill out and become better at rebounding. He will get that baby hook down. His understanding of PF weakside D will improve (something else he didn't do in college).

Wasn't Frye a C in college? PF is entirely different. He has to guard guys out onto the 3-point line (Garrity). That's something he is working on.

fryes ceiling stat wise is probably something like 24 ppg and 8rpg. I dont think frye is a leader though. he definately a good player to have on your team, but I havent seen leadership qualities or franchise player qualities from him.
BlueSeats
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12/16/2005  11:25 AM
Posted by Knight:

^After hearing LB's criticism's of our point guards, I highly highly doubt Crawford will ever be a point guard for us--Crawford does not have the ability to recognize different defensive sets and call out plays and still be Crawford--that loosey goosey offensive minded Crawford. If LB has to call out plays for Marbury on the sideline, you better believe Craw will be no better.

I tend to agree, particularly for Larry. If you think of his teams you notice his PGs are rather sturdy and deliberate while his SGs are highly kinetic. Think Indy with Mark Jackson and Reggie; Philly with Snow and Ivy; Detroit with Billips and Rip. JC is more kinetic than sturdy and more likely to fit his SG mold, while Q seems a little too pokey for that role.

But JC does seem somewhat moldable to me and while he is very loosey goosey, he does have good court recognition and a good feel for feeding the interior. Like I say, I'd suss it out, but you may be right that Larry already knows.



[Edited by - BlueSeats on 12-16-2005 11:27 AM]
fishmike
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12/16/2005  11:40 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Does the season have to be "salvaged?" I'd say let the kids on the team make progress and use the expiring contracts to get good veterans and/or young players with upside.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12-16-2005 10:03 AM]
NO... nothing wrong with playing .285 basketball with a $100mm + payroll and no lottery protection for the next 2 years on your draft picks. No salvage job needed there

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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12/16/2005  11:45 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Does the season have to be "salvaged?" I'd say let the kids on the team make progress and use the expiring contracts to get good veterans and/or young players with upside.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12-16-2005 10:03 AM]
NO... nothing wrong with playing .285 basketball with a $100mm + payroll and no lottery protection for the next 2 years on your draft picks. No salvage job needed there

Bonn is like the Kevin Bacon character in Animal House at the end when he's trying to calm down the rioters by putting his hands up and proclaiming "All is well". Right before he got trampled.

Or come to think of it he's also like that character when he's bent over and saying "Thank you Sir, May I have another."
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
crzymdups
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12/16/2005  11:49 AM
I think you salvage the season by staying the course. Keep developing the rookies, don't make shortsighted trades, save the expiries for an opportunity to help the team, get picks back in trades if we help the other team clear cap space.

Teams have lost lotto picks before and moved on. Anyone remember when Memphis has the no.2 pick and it went to Detroit in 2003? Sure, a lotto pick would have helped them, but it didn't stop them from winning 50 games in 03-04 and being one of the better young teams in the league. If we lose a high lotto pick, accept it and move on. Work with what you have. Don't try to hit a homerun on a trade.

I really fear what kind of panic moves Isiah and Brown would make. They should keep doing what they're doing. It will click eventually. There's too much talent for it not to.



[Edited by - crzymdups on 12-16-2005 11:50 AM]
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fishmike
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12/16/2005  11:52 AM
Neidermeyer strikes again!
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/16/2005  11:54 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

I think you salvage the season by staying the course. Keep developing the rookies, don't make shortsighted trades, save the expiries for an opportunity to help the team, get picks back in trades if we help the other team clear cap space.

Teams have lost lotto picks before and moved on. Anyone remember when Memphis has the no.2 pick and it went to Detroit in 2003? Sure, a lotto pick would have helped them, but it didn't stop them from winning 50 games in 03-04 and being one of the better young teams in the league. If we lose a high lotto pick, accept it and move on. Work with what you have. Don't try to hit a homerun on a trade.

I really fear what kind of panic moves Isiah and Brown would make. They should keep doing what they're doing. It will click eventually. There's too much talent for it not to.



[Edited by - crzymdups on 12-16-2005 11:50 AM]
hey... thats legit. It may take 50 games for Curry and Snacks to get in shape. But you like to see some sort of consistancy regarding playing time that will allow guys to grow as a unit

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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12/16/2005  12:04 PM
Yes, a consistant lineup is the most important thing right now. that's on Brown now. He said he would do it, he needs to do it. I don't like the way he's done certain things, but I'll accept that there may be a method to his madness. I hope the players do too.

I wouldn't mind adding a Watson, but I think adding a Patterson or making that Jared Jefferies trade, unless it's part of another deal, I think trades like that set us back even further.
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McK1
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12/16/2005  12:37 PM
Memphis had Pau Gasol, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, James Posey, Stro Swift, Jason Williams, Earl Watson
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
jaydh
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12/16/2005  12:41 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

I like Frye but he's not good enough. He's a complimentary player. It would be a big mistake to cast him in that role. He's a nice jump shooting big man but he doesn't do nearly enough of anything else. But that's just his ceiling.

come on now. 20 games and we know his ceiling? Before the year started we didn't even know he could shoot this well. I remember Bosh SUCKED the first half of his rookie year.

The guy works hard at improving. He is developing a post game - something that was non-existant for him at college. He will put on muscle to fill out and become better at rebounding. He will get that baby hook down. His understanding of PF weakside D will improve (something else he didn't do in college).

Wasn't Frye a C in college? PF is entirely different. He has to guard guys out onto the 3-point line (Garrity). That's something he is working on.

fryes ceiling stat wise is probably something like 24 ppg and 8rpg. I dont think frye is a leader though. he definately a good player to have on your team, but I havent seen leadership qualities or franchise player qualities from him.


currently, Frye is #25 in efficiency in the league putting him w/some of the top players in the league. i think its too early to determine his leadership qualities since it is rare to have a very vocal rookie.


[Edited by - jaydh on 12-16-2005 12:43 PM]
crzymdups
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12/16/2005  12:42 PM
Posted by McK1:

Memphis had Pau Gasol, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, James Posey, Stro Swift, Jason Williams, Earl Watson

New York has Channing Frye, Eddy Curry, Quentin Richardson, Jamal Crawford, Stephon Marbury, Nate Robinson, Trevor Ariza, David Lee

it takes time. Memphis started off that season very poorly and turned it around too, you know.
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attaboy2005
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12/16/2005  12:48 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Or prepare for the future. Please refrain from the "fire ISiah" posts, unless you have a viable alternative waiting in the wings.

LB has to let these guys plays once and for all, he has handcuffed them so much they have lost their confidence in their play and as a team, these moral victories have them accepting just that moral victories, that is not acceptable. They should have been allowed to succeed from the beginning and not be told it takes time to develop as a team that is horse crap, they have been handcuffed long enough, let them loose LB, and they will WIN!.
arkrud
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12/16/2005  12:53 PM
I am not sure if you can assemble a team just before the season with a bunch of young players and a good couch and begin winning just by following the right system.
You can surely do this in hockey (see Rangers this year)
Can you do it in NBA? I doubt it....
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
crzymdups
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12/16/2005  12:56 PM
Posted by arkrud:

I am not sure if you can assemble a team just before the season with a bunch of young players and a good couch and begin winning just by following the right system.
You can surely do this in hockey (see Rangers this year)
Can you do it in NBA? I doubt it....

Teams do get better from within. Detroit went from 31 wins to 50 wins without any additions. Learning how to play together is extremely important. Memphis had the same kind of turn around with no major additions, just the youth maturing.
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McK1
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12/16/2005  12:57 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by McK1:

Memphis had Pau Gasol, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, James Posey, Stro Swift, Jason Williams, Earl Watson

New York has Channing Frye, Eddy Curry, Quentin Richardson, Jamal Crawford, Stephon Marbury, Nate Robinson, Trevor Ariza, David Lee

it takes time. Memphis started off that season very poorly and turned it around too, you know.

Huge difference in quality of players.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
McK1
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12/16/2005  1:01 PM
Memphis turnaround coincided with trading the 1-dimensional and defensively weak Wesley Persons for strong perimeter defender and all-around scoring threat Bonzi Wells in December of 03.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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