Posted by fishmike:

I chose Isiah. This is not a rebuilding team. The only reason LB is resigned to playing the young guys right now is because the old ones are that bad. Eddie Curry is young, but this is year 5 in the league now. Q is a veteran. Penny, AD, JYD, Nazr, Baker, Jerome James, Marbury, TT, Mo Taylor, Crawford, Moochie (I'm sure there's more).. these guys all had at least 4 years and were pretty established as players. These are not rebuilding players. They are Isiah's attempt to take cast offs and build them into a team that can win. A very expensive team.

A lot of Isiah's trades make sense, but as a whole I would have to say they are very bad. Curry is a good player and a good investment, and we havent seen the lighter Curry I that played for the Bulls last year. I'm glad we have him and he can be a great piece, but if you NEVER EVER EVER trade unprotected picsks unless you are god damn convinved your team is making the playoffs.

Right now it comes to Larry's ability to take this fodder and build it into a team. There is no doubt more talent here, but coming from Shanvis Eisleyspoon it was hard not to improve.

Did Layden's teams ever play .286 ball?

There is no excuse for this record. We should be able to work out some wins here and there with these players and this payroll.

Now its Larry Brown's fault? First it was Chaney's, then it was Lenny's then it was Herb's. Now its Larry's??? I think if Isiah hired Jesus Christ it wouldnt matter. At some point you have to question the talent, and then who assembled it.

Excellent post Fish.

Can you guess how I voted?

[Edited by - islesfan on 12-15-2005 09:33 AM]

I still wouldnt fire him though.. there's no Donnie Walsh, Petrie or Rod Thorn waiting in the wings here. Who are we going to get? Magic Johnson? Please.

Start "talks" with some of these guys... and see what options we have in the offseason. Put the clamp down on taking back more money and longer contracts.

Its not impossible that LB fixes this, gets guys playing well together and Isiah makes some trades for players that Larry wants. I'm not banking on it, but its a fair hope.

I still don't understand how LB gets the blame for this, yes he doesn't have his players here but fact is, if he did have his players here then the Knicks would be a much better team. I don't want to hear, well he should change his style to conform to this group of players. No he shouldn't, LB's style has worked everywhere he has went and the first year with Larry is ALWAYS a struggle; see San Antonio, LA Clippers, Philly. Even the Pacers who were great Larry's 1st year(a team chock full of Larry Brown players) dramatically improved upon their first season together where they won 46 games if I remember correctly. Coaches don't change who they are, they get players who fit into their style. Imagine asking Phil Jackson to stop using the triangle, it would never happen, he'll find players who fit into his style of play, before he ever stops using it and he will make them into superstars by doing so. Larry Brown is no different and players that fit his system play extremely well in it, its not made for everyone and thats why he's going to tell Isiah to make some trades and get his guys in here.

I guess if I'm putting the blame on someone then it goes to Isiah. To be fair, Isiah put this team together before Larry Brown came here and Isiah wanted this team to be a run and gun team that is always pushing the pace up and down the court. That is so anti-Larry Brown its not even funny. When Larry came aboard, Isiah's whole offseason, aside from Frye, became useless. Jerome James is a loaf and has no place ever playing near a Larry Brown team, Nate Robinson is a shoot-first second and third PG who has no business running a Larry Brown offense, Quentin Richardson well, he's just sucked. I'm willing to give Isiah the chance to fix the problems by acquiring some players that Larry wants and seeing where that goes but to me I think Isiah is going to be the real loser here. When Isiah came here, he had his eyes fixed on being the savior of the New York Knicks, the guy who turns the franchise around and brings back the winning tradition. Now, its going to be Larry Brown who gets ALL of the praise becuase he's going to tell Isiah which guys to bring in and which guys he wants because thats part of the deal when Larry Brown is your coach.

Just bring in the guys that Larry wants Isiah and I think there will be a turnaround this year. I didn't expect things to go smoothly this year. Through 20 games I was figuring the team would be 9-11 or so and expecting big things. I certainly didn't think that they would be this bad, but that just goes to show you how much personnel really means to a guy like Larry Brown. Smart players with heart, tenacity, and a will to never lose is the player that thrives under Brown and until there are some of those the Knicks will be losing games like they did last night.

Posted by JesseDark:

Coaches don't change who they are, they get players who fit into their style. Imagine asking Phil Jackson to stop using the triangle, it would never happen, he'll find players who fit into his style of play, before he ever stops using it and he will make them into superstars by doing so. Larry Brown is no different and players that fit his system play extremely well in it, its not made for everyone and thats why he's going to tell Isiah to make some trades and get his guys in here.

When Riley was with the Lakers he was a run and gun coach. Why cause his talent permitted he to be so. When he came to the Knicks his style was grind it out low scoring defensive games. Why cause thats what the talent dictated. Brown needs to coach the talent and not just one system.

OH MY GOD! THANK YOU!!! Finally someone understands what i've been trying to say. It really amazes me that some want to give LB a pass just because he's a great coach and these players haven't won anything. Hey IF HE IS a great coach then he would realize that not every player fits into his narrow view of what a player should be. He lucked into the Pistons situation. They had the right kind of players or at least guys with the skills he could tailor into what he wanted. IN Philly he just turned the roster over into the players he wanted. Well in this case he's gonna have to actually coach a team that isn't perfect for him. How about using all that supposed knowledge he has to do things a little differently.

You can't tell me that some other coach couldn't find a way to get something out of these guys. This is better than the team we had last year and he's made them even worse. LB waisted all that time messing around, when he should have been playing the young kids and letting them take their lumps but gain knowledge and chemistry. Now when we're about to get rid of some of the vets, which he knew was gonna happen anyway. The kids aren't ready to take over, cuz he never let them do it full time before.

He's killed Steph and JC and I don't know if he realizes it, but we FREAKIN NEED THEM TO SCORE! Frye is gonna score no matter what, cuz he's great at finding the open space on the floor and he's a great shooter.
Other guys on the team have NEVER played this way and lack some of the skills needed to play this way. That doesn't mean they can't play at all. You have to find ways to put them in the best possible situation. Limit their weaknesses and maximize their strengths. That's what I expected him to do. Not beat these guys into the ground and emasculate them. Other teams take shots with confidence our guys shoot scared.

I thought we were making progress. I still think this team can get back to playing better and build from their, but LB has to do a better job. Maybe now if he can get his lineup and rotations down, these guys can develop some chemistry. At this point we don't need to see AD and Rose anymore. Just play Lee and the other young guys and let them get experience for the future.

I blame internet forum posters impatience. There is no blame, its a process.

Its incredible that there must be blame, to say LB sucks, and Isiah blew a lotto pick on Curry.

That is almost funny!

Why is it lotto picks are so revered. We got a lotto pick, its called 22 year old Eddie Curry.

Posted by Nalod:

I blame internet forum posters impatience. There is no blame, its a process.

Its incredible that there must be blame, to say LB sucks, and Isiah blew a lotto pick on Curry.

That is almost funny!

Why is it lotto picks are so revered. We got a lotto pick, its called 22 year old Eddie Curry.

Nolad--I think I probably speak fo most knick fans saying that none of us cared about the draft for more than 10 years. but this is a new time

im sorry we dont share the same opinion. eddie curry was a fA NO team wanted him if they did all they had to do is offer him a contract--obviously the bulls werent matching if that is the case why did we give up so much--why isnt there a reasonable line--if no one else wanted him --why r we giving away 2 unprotected picks+ sweetney? isnt there some kind of reasonable medium? somoen said it today isiah is paxson's btch. why overpay if you dont have to? why not be patient? eddie curry wasnt even a top 3 pick

Blame everybody

>This team is factually a better team than last year's team and is playing much much worse.

Factually it is NOT a better team

Factually, it is a assemblage of totally new parts

Posted by misterearl:

A shift I'd like to see

Crawford

Richardson

Qyntel Woods

David Lee

Channing Frye

as if giving up 105 and over the last 2 games wasn't enough...

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-15-2005 4:52 PM]

Posted by BRIGGS:

let it play out. let the xcuses fly. either the knicks will win or they wont. im old enough to remember the late 70 early 80s the garden can be quite empty with 20 win teams. if the knicks win 22 games the bulls are picking top 3 ticket re-ups run dry, that will be judgement day. i dont buy the rebuild BS they were trying to win NOW

I agree they were trying to win immediately. The draft was definitely a "win now" draft of players who had gone to 4 years of high quality programs and would be ready to step in and play. Curry move was clearly win now.

I think they underestimated how long it would take Crawford and Marbury to understand how to play under Brown. Also, Curry has been sort of a disappointment so far, especially on defense. And Q has been worthless so far, for some reasons that aren't his fault and some that are. I still say the worst move was throwing away the MLE on Jerome. They could have gotten James Jones and Stephen Hunter for the MLE and we'd be in much better shape.

Marbury Q-Rich and Crawford are all in their absolute primes with a huge amounts of nBA experience. Buying and trading for expensive vets like Mo Taylor Malik Rose Jerome James is all win now stuff. the young stuff or havent played together is absolute utter excuse. bulls were youngest team in the league last year the suns were third--the bulls had 4 rookies started 0-9 and finished with 47 wins with an average age starter of 22

That's all well and good and I agree with you, but I don't think that is why we suck now.

Posted by BRIGGS:


Marbury Q-Rich and Crawford are all in their absolute primes with a huge amounts of nBA experience. Buying and trading for expensive vets like Mo Taylor Malik Rose Jerome James is all win now stuff. the young stuff or havent played together is absolute utter excuse. bulls were youngest team in the league last year the suns were third--the bulls had 4 rookies started 0-9 and finished with 47 wins with an average age starter of 22