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I feel for you Steph
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NotFrye
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12/5/2005  1:17 PM
Good point. This team would be very very bad without stephon, which is not a good thing since we have no picks
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djsunyc
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12/5/2005  1:20 PM
hold up hold up
this is not a 50+ win team that just lost ewing we're talking about.
we just came off a 33 win season and are 5-11. it is NOT the same thing.
yes, steph does get critized alot, and some of it is unjust but PLEASE do not compare patrick with steph. it's insulting.
arkrud
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12/5/2005  1:25 PM
This situation is not unique in the league.
GMc, Carter, Iverson, Francis, even KG cannot carry the team all the way to the wins or even a win in one game. And it takes its tall - they get hurt, tired, passive... They are still great players and should not be responsible for GM's and owners stupidity...
Most of them just move on and nobody cares. Looks like Stephan is different person - he takes is to serious.
And who likes selebs who cares about their job? - They are on public display to make public happy by posting their dirty clothes...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Bippity10
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12/5/2005  1:42 PM
I agree that Patrick was more successful than Marbury. But that's not the point. But in the 20 years I've seen Patrick, Stephon and Allan(all our best players) abused by the fans. The only one that got a pass was Latrell. And we didn't win anymore with him than we did with Allan. In fact we got worse every year he was here. It's just curious how we treat our stars.

My take: Ewing: should never be criticized unless nitpicking
Houston/Spree: were winners on good teams losers on bad ones. Funny how that works
Marbury: Has a lot to prove but there isn't a PG in the league you can bring here that would turn this team(without Curry, James, Richardson) into winners. The grass is always greener. I said the same thing about the coach when we were all blaming Lenny and Herb. I will judge STeph when he has some other players here. Until then he is playing the best of anyone.

I would blame the Curry, Q and James injuries and the mistakes of the rookies before I blame Steph.
I just hope that people will like me
MattSuspect
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12/5/2005  1:43 PM
Why doesn't anyone acknowledge that Larry Brown's rotation positively sucks. There was no reason to start MoT on friday. There is no reason to start AD any night. I can accept Craw off the bench. But if he doesn't start playing his best players THE MAJORITY of the minutes, I'm gonna go friggin nuts.

Oh and Larry, run a play for Q once in a blue moon. Thanks.
Bippity10
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12/5/2005  1:46 PM
We are a work in progress. Guys are learning to play. There is noone to blame. Especially not Steph, Channing or Brown. Winning will not happen overnight
I just hope that people will like me
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  1:56 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I agree that Patrick was more successful than Marbury. But that's not the point. But in the 20 years I've seen Patrick, Stephon and Allan(all our best players) abused by the fans. The only one that got a pass was Latrell. And we didn't win anymore with him than we did with Allan. In fact we got worse every year he was here. It's just curious how we treat our stars.

My take: Ewing: should never be criticized unless nitpicking
Houston/Spree: were winners on good teams losers on bad ones. Funny how that works
Marbury: Has a lot to prove but there isn't a PG in the league you can bring here that would turn this team(without Curry, James, Richardson) into winners. The grass is always greener. I said the same thing about the coach when we were all blaming Lenny and Herb. I will judge STeph when he has some other players here. Until then he is playing the best of anyone.

I would blame the Curry, Q and James injuries and the mistakes of the rookies before I blame Steph.

winning cures ALL. no matter who the player. you win, you get a pass. it's that simple.

ewing was criticized for not taking us over the hump to a championship. yes, many were brutal towards him, especially towards the end as he was getting old and i found myself defending him more and more. and h20 will never shake the contract. 90% of the hate to h20 was the contract.

yes, there are various reasons why guys like ewing, h20, and steph get criticized here in nyc but ALOT of it had to do with their personailities or stuff OTHER THAN their play on the court. ewing was a proud man that didn't really give the media love. h20 was a GREAT guy but had that OBSCENE contract. and steph has the contract, is not media friendly, and to top it off, hasn't won. that's like 3 strikes against steph.

on the flip side, you have a career loser in don mattingly and he's revered as a legend. he didn't make the big bucks, he clearly lost alot b/c of injury but b/c of the way he carried himself and the way he treated the media did he get a pass.

and the media shapes up ALOT of how fans feel towards certain players.
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  1:58 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

We are a work in progress. Guys are learning to play. There is noone to blame. Especially not Steph, Channing or Brown. Winning will not happen overnight

that's one way to look at it...and i agree to an extent.

but when does a $120 mil roster start winning? how long does it take guys making an average of $8 mil a year to set up a simple pick and roll? or to box out an opponent? it's pretty disgusting if you look at it in that light.


[Edited by - djsunyc on 12-05-2005 2:01 PM]
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  2:00 PM
one last thing - don't feel bad for steph...or any pro player for that matter.
these guys make a TON of money. they're set for life...their families are set for life...their kids are set for life...and in some instances, they're yet to be born grand kids are set for life.

criticism comes with the territory.
nixluva
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12/5/2005  2:00 PM
Hey look LB is a HUGE part of the cure and the curse for this team. LB is a GREAT defensive coach, but he's NOT a great offensive coach.

His offenses are designed to hold leads and help the defense with high efficiency low Turnovers. When they are run properly they are efficient but unspectacular. In this situation, he's totally messed up the starting lineups and rotations all season.

LB should have started Steph, JC, Q, Frye and Curry. WHY, cuz that would allow the Knicks to spread the floor and force the Celtics to cover the perimeter and not be able to pack it in on Curry, which they did evvery minute he was on the floor. When you have a pure post up Center you need perimeter threats on the floor to force the defense to play honest. LB horrible starting lineups consistently fail in the 3rd qtr. Its not a conicidence that when he puts the young guys in they help us to charge back from large deficits. The problem is that you can't keep doing that and win. You're going to fall short. Now yesterday we lost JC, so that really forced Steph to have to play longer and he tired in the end. STILL LB should have given us a better chance to start the game and we could have built a biggger lead if we had a better lineup in there to start. The Celtics weren't doing anything and we couldn't take full advantage.

You can't blame Steph for everything. He's been passing the ball, but with little success, he's going to be forced to try and do it himself and keep the team in the game. How many wasted possessions do you think he's gonna take before he abandons LB's system and does something on his own.

I still feel this team is gonna eventually get it together, but its not jsut the players its also LB's fault that we're doing so poorly.
Knight
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12/5/2005  2:01 PM
^Don Mattingly! Ah, my favorite pinstriper!
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Bippity10
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12/5/2005  2:16 PM
I blame mgt for the contracts. Not the players. I personally could care less what they get paid.

Personally I agree that I think our opinions are shaped by the media whether we want to admit it or not. Spree and Allan had similar records here yet Spree was loved and Allan was hated. The media created that stink about the feud between them. Patrick was loved by all teammates. Yet the media made me think he was a surly mean gentlemen. No he was actually just mean to the press because they kept torching him. The media dislikes Steph and they pound him after every loss. WE just jump on the bandwagon.

I am still waiting for 2 fifths our projected starting line-up and our top free agent acquisition to make any sort of impact on our team. Yet somehow everyone else keeps blaming Steph.
I just hope that people will like me
sisqo8
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12/5/2005  2:19 PM
for everyone who is complaining about steph......did anyone forget our old point gurds ....ummm ya know charlie ward and howard eisley ?? how are you gunna complain about steph appreciate the man please
Bippity10
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12/5/2005  2:20 PM
I am not a Steph lover and wouldn't be shattered if he was traded. If it made our team better I would be ecstatic. But I'm just not quick to say it's all his fault. There are maybe one or two PG's that could come in here and make any type of difference at this point. So I have to cut the guy some slack and harp on the real problem, Youth, idiocy, rebuilding, Curry and James being obese, Q not himself, turnovers etc. When it starts to come together at that point I will look to Steph. If he hasn't made strides I will be with you guys. But right now I think it's just misdirected frustration aimed at our best player yet again.
I just hope that people will like me
Allanfan20
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12/5/2005  2:58 PM
I agree with you Bip. Steph is doing what he can. I hate when the ball is being being pounded into him and only him, but I guess that's when the rest of the team is playing like crap.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bippity10
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12/5/2005  3:13 PM
Allanfan: Of course you agree with me because I am always right. I know that Larry Brown repeatedly said that he believes that offenses should be designed to go inside out. Unfortunately the only guys producing on our team are perimeter players. First we need Curry and james to step up.

Listen Steph has his flaws. I can name ten: dribbles too much, shoots too much, leaves his feet too often, over penetrates when guys are open, can't handle the trap, pouts from time to time, etc. But there is definitely an improvement in his play this year. And as the team gets better I assume he will too. In the meantime I want to get on the fat guys before I blame stuff on STeph. Enough of the STeph/Marbury feud nonsense.
I just hope that people will like me
Marv
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12/5/2005  4:35 PM
one more thing about steph - i recognize some of the legitimate criticsms of him and i don't debate those. but here's one more angle - you ever just flat out like a certain player and feel a bond with him? and they don't have to be perfect it can be as much for their flaws as for their positive traits? you know what i mean, it's kind of how a lot of people feel about ewing. well that's what i feel with steph. the guy's like a character out of shakespeare or dante or something, he's had the weight of the world on his shoulders since he was a 14 year old schoolboy, he's had some real lows and some real highs and he seems to provoke very strong and totally opposite emotional reactions from people.

anyway, enough from me, but here's a few pics that capture some of the facets of the guy:
Bonn1997
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12/5/2005  4:40 PM
I love those pics!
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  4:44 PM
Posted by Marv:

one more thing about steph - i recognize some of the legitimate criticsms of him and i don't debate those. but here's one more angle - you ever just flat out like a certain player and feel a bond with him? and they don't have to be perfect it can be as much for their flaws as for their positive traits? you know what i mean, it's kind of how a lot of people feel about ewing. well that's what i feel with steph. the guy's like a character out of shakespeare or dante or something, he's had the weight of the world on his shoulders since he was a 14 year old schoolboy, he's had some real lows and some real highs and he seems to provoke very strong and totally opposite emotional reactions from people.

anyway, enough from me, but here's a few pics that capture some of the facets of the guy:

he may be one of the nicest, kindest guy in the world, especially when he was younger but i'm sure all those years of pressure and people pulling at him from all directions have taken it's toll. his biggest issue is obviously TRUST. marbury winning in ny would be GREAT. but alas, is it in the cards? i don't know. but that should not be our priority. the priority should be to make the knicks win REGARDLESS of who's on the roster.

i was ewing's biggest fan. but i too said his time here was up as he clearly wasn't the player he used to be and this team was moving in a different direction.

our team now...look at the youth on it. nothing but babies. and we're looking for marbs to lead them? i don't know if that's a prudent decision.
Bippity10
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12/5/2005  4:51 PM
I'm with you DJ. As Zeke said, I'm loyal to winning, not players. If the Knicks are winning I'm sure I will love whoever is on the roster. But my question is, who do you get if you trade Marbury? The names I've heard are not going to make us better, probably worse. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and say this is who we got now let's give him time to work with the coach. If it doesn't work then hell get rid of him. But at this moment it's just change for change sake, once again imagining that the grass is greener on the other side.

but I do think the question of his leadership is valid. If we decide that we don't want him around the kids we have to assume that we are not going to get the same value in return and will probably set ourselves back more in the short run. At that point in time Curry will be our best player and I'm sure the venom will finally turn to him.
I just hope that people will like me
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I feel for you Steph
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