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kurt talks about the knicks/steph (article)
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Pharzeone
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11/26/2005  4:09 PM
Posted by rojasmas:

TT didn't shoot 30% as a Knick, don't know where those numbers came from. KT doesn't really fit in Phoenix, he isn't starting now, so his numbers are bound to be lower than when with the Knicks.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomati01.html

check out his numbers by months. Look at November and December 2004. He had a good Jan. & excellent Feb. in 2005.

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knicks1248
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11/27/2005  1:06 PM
Blah,Blah,Blah, KT is mediocre at best on the offensive end, he's pretty much a 3rd or 4th option on any team. What they heck he's he talking about. What, he thought he was suppose to be the go to guy. The Guy is offensively challange as it is, No post up moves, no range beyond 15 feet, no power moves, and I've seen Robots more athletic then him. Is this guy serious
ES
Killa4luv
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11/27/2005  1:10 PM
Posted by islesfan:


I'm sorry but I don't answer questions from people who pick and choose whose questions they answer from other people.

At least Briggs takes the time to answer questions instead of avoiding them like you do.

Thats not a true statement. But I'll let you live in your fantasy world. Kurt is really flourishing with the reigning MVP dishing to him.
knicks1248
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11/27/2005  1:20 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by islesfan:


I'm sorry but I don't answer questions from people who pick and choose whose questions they answer from other people.

At least Briggs takes the time to answer questions instead of avoiding them like you do.

Flourishing enough to get demoted, especially when there number one big man is down. What exactly does that tell you, Anyone with a relatively low basketball IQ can see kt is not a fit for that team, Just Like Q is struggling on this team. This trade is starting to look mindless. The only reason the knicks will benifit more is becuase Robinson was a throw in.

Thats not a true statement. But I'll let you live in your fantasy world. Kurt is really flourishing with the reigning MVP dishing to him.

ES
NYKniCksFan87
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11/27/2005  1:31 PM
i never liked Kurt Thomas..he was a power foward who shot jumpers even though he never jumped. Its funny how everyone is taking shots at Marbury after they leave NY.

Tim Thomas should keep his mouth shut too he stuck with the Bulls who wont trade him because he will provide cap space so they can go after ben wallace.
''We don't have the luxury to take anybody lightly,'' New York's Quentin Richardson said. ''We're not that good.''
Killa4luv
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11/27/2005  1:32 PM
Posted by knicks1248:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by islesfan:


I'm sorry but I don't answer questions from people who pick and choose whose questions they answer from other people.

At least Briggs takes the time to answer questions instead of avoiding them like you do.

Flourishing enough to get demoted, especially when there number one big man is down. What exactly does that tell you, Anyone with a relatively low basketball IQ can see kt is not a fit for that team, Just Like Q is struggling on this team. This trade is starting to look mindless. The only reason the knicks will benifit more is becuase Robinson was a throw in.

Thats not a true statement. But I'll let you live in your fantasy world. Kurt is really flourishing with the reigning MVP dishing to him.

2 things:
1. Learn how to quote properly.
2. I was beign sarcastic, KT looks like a piece of crap out there.
BlueSeats
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11/27/2005  1:46 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

Blah,Blah,Blah, KT is mediocre at best on the offensive end, he's pretty much a 3rd or 4th option on any team. What they heck he's he talking about. What, he thought he was suppose to be the go to guy. The Guy is offensively challange as it is, No post up moves, no range beyond 15 feet, no power moves, and I've seen Robots more athletic then him. Is this guy serious

I don't think when KT and TT criticize steph's passing that it directly infers he did not pass enough to themselves, as you all infer.

I watched the Suns vs the Nets the other night. (Kurt didn't take a lot of shots, but he had a monster rebounding game, and you could add in some tip-outs to teammates that maintained possession but didn't register as rebounds.) But the Suns run a motion offense wherein the ball get whipped around the perimeter a lot and anyone is entitled to feed the interior when spaces open up. And when Nash gives the ball up early in the clock there is a good chance he'll get it back and give it up again. Nash is the orchestrator of their offense without dominating the ball. He makes key decisions without being the lone decision maker, he leads by example without trying to do it all himself. He shows absolute trust in his teammates and they in him.

The Marbury that KT played with stood in stark contrast to that. He often plodded the ball up-court and pounded the ball until he could find the one pass that would lead to a shot. If he passed it to KT, and KT chose not to shoot, Steph expected it back again, (unlike in Phoenix where KT might just move the ball along). It lead to Steph with high assist numbers but the team with low assist numbers, which is consistent with Steph's history in the league. Kt was often somewhat forced into taking a lot of 18 footers by virtue of getting the ball so often off of screens, often late enough in the clock and with little movement toward the basket, he had little cause not to pop from the perimeter. Our style of play was so perimeter oriented, and Kurts's FG% was as good or better than any other shooter's, so why not him?

Ever see steph do a give and go? You know, pass to KT and then cut to the basket? Or how about take a screen from Kurt, keep the ball, and dribble around the horn to the side of the court where he could feed a cutter to the basket? Or how about penetrate and not put up a shot or dish but hold the dribble and go baseline where he could find a guy cutting backdoor to the rim? These are all normal parts of Nash's repertoire that lead's to interior play and easy bucket's. unlike steph's style of perimeter setups that leads to guys never quite knocking down their shots like Steph needs them too.

End of last year when KT knocked Steph he said they just "see the court differently", and I think that was his issue, not that he personally didn't get enough 18 footers -- but that his 18 footers shouldn't have even been so fundamental to the offense as they were. In fact, I'd say our offense shouldn't have been as dependent upon jumpshots period as it was.

Fortunately LB is working hard to alter Steph's approach and make it more Nash-like, and I think we hear, even from Steph's most ardent supporters, that they see a better PG today from the efforts.
gunsnewing
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11/27/2005  1:58 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by knicks1248:

Blah,Blah,Blah, KT is mediocre at best on the offensive end, he's pretty much a 3rd or 4th option on any team. What they heck he's he talking about. What, he thought he was suppose to be the go to guy. The Guy is offensively challange as it is, No post up moves, no range beyond 15 feet, no power moves, and I've seen Robots more athletic then him. Is this guy serious

I don't think when KT and TT criticize steph's passing that it directly infers he did not pass enough to themselves, as you all infer.

I watched the Suns vs the Nets the other night. (Kurt didn't take a lot of shots, but he had a monster rebounding game, and you could add in some tip-outs to teammates that maintained possession but didn't register as rebounds.) But the Suns run a motion offense wherein the ball get whipped around the perimeter a lot and anyone is entitled to feed the interior when spaces open up. And when Nash gives the ball up early in the clock there is a good chance he'll get it back and give it up again. Nash is the orchestrator of their offense without dominating the ball. He makes key decisions without being the lone decision maker, he leads by example without trying to do it all himself. He shows absolute trust in his teammates and they in him.

The Marbury that KT played with stood in stark contrast to that. He often plodded the ball up-court and pounded the ball until he could find the one pass that would lead to a shot. If he passed it to KT, and KT chose not to shoot, Steph expected it back again, (unlike in Phoenix where KT might just move the ball along). It lead to Steph with high assist numbers but the team with low assist numbers, which is consistent with Steph's history in the league. Kt was often somewhat forced into taking a lot of 18 footers by virtue of getting the ball so often off of screens, often late enough in the clock and with little movement toward the basket, he had little cause not to pop from the perimeter. Our style of play was so perimeter oriented, and Kurts's FG% was as good or better than any other shooter's, so why not him?

Ever see steph do a give and go? You know, pass to KT and then cut to the basket? Or how about take a screen from Kurt, keep the ball, and dribble around the horn to the side of the court where he could feed a cutter to the basket? Or how about penetrate and not put up a shot or dish but hold the dribble and go baseline where he could find a guy cutting backdoor to the rim? These are all normal parts of Nash's repertoire that lead's to interior play and easy bucket's. unlike steph's style of perimeter setups that leads to guys never quite knocking down their shots like Steph needs them too.

End of last year when KT knocked Steph he said they just "see the court differently", and I think that was his issue, not that he personally didn't get enough 18 footers -- but that his 18 footers shouldn't have even been so fundamental to the offense as they were. In fact, I'd say our offense shouldn't have been as dependent upon jumpshots period as it was.

Fortunately LB is working hard to alter Steph's approach and make it more Nash-like, and I think we hear, even from Steph's most ardent supporters, that they see a better PG today from the efforts.

excellent post. KT is not talking about Marbury not passing it to him necessarily
firefly
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11/27/2005  2:19 PM
First of all Blueseats, noone argues that Steph is a scoring PG. he is what he is. But the fact remains that Steph KNOWS what to do with the ball. Watch the way he played in Phoenix with Amare. there was a hell of a lot of drive and dishes, where Amare finished things off with a monster slam. Steve Nash is not a scoring PG. He cannot consistently carry the scoring load for his team. Steph can. Plus he can see his teammates and use their strengths to get points. You don't see him giving Curry the ball at the free throw line do you? If KT would have been in the paint, considering our limited offensive options last year, he would have gotten the ball in the paint. You can say that Steph doesn't make his teammates better, but he definitely uses and enhances their strengths. That's the only reason KT and Nazr got so many 20+ point games last year. KT won't have that this year because he is being asked to adapt to the Suns offense, and he can't.

IMO Steph is unique in the NBA because his game is similar to other scoring pgs like Francis, Bibby, Terry etc. but he can also see where his teammates will be in a useful position to utilize their strengths and use them. No he doesn't run the entire offense like Nash or Kidd, but he brings other things that they don't as well.

And the fact remains that Steph was the perfect pg for KT, and its looking more and more like Nash will never get as much out of him.

Just don't start making out that Steph is Rafer Alston or something, because he's not.


Oh and by the way Isles, BRIGGS NEVER answers anyones questions. Just be a man and front up when challenged maybe. Just a suggestion.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
Marv
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11/27/2005  2:26 PM
is anyone besides me convinced that nash could easliy be a "scoring" pg if he chose to? 20, 23 ppg. baron, stevie, chauncy, marbs numbers. personally i see it easily - i just think he chooses to play a different game.
firefly
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11/27/2005  2:32 PM
Marv I don't think he could do it consistently because he's a jumpshooter. Yes a very good jumpshooter but not Ray Allen, Allan Houston good. He can't get into the paint like Steph, Baron, Francis. So, no I disagree, I don't think he could be a 22-24 ppg scorer. But he is a superb PG, so I don't think he will be too worried about that.
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Marv
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11/27/2005  3:17 PM
i hear you about the jumpshooting but personally i wouild put him in the allen/houston category. guy's a career 47% shooter and 42% from 3-point range. that's pretty outstanding.

i watched all his playoff games last year and i was pretty blown away by his play. in 15 games he ended up scoring 23.9 ppg on 52 % shooting. and added over 11 assists a game too. pretty damn impressive.
rvhoss
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11/27/2005  4:02 PM
I think nash is a little streaky to be a scoring pg
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BlueSeats
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11/27/2005  10:57 PM
Posted by firefly:

First of all Blueseats, noone argues that Steph is a scoring PG. he is what he is. But the fact remains that Steph KNOWS what to do with the ball. Watch the way he played in Phoenix with Amare. there was a hell of a lot of drive and dishes, where Amare finished things off with a monster slam. Steve Nash is not a scoring PG. He cannot consistently carry the scoring load for his team. Steph can.

I don't want to get too bogged down in Nash vs Marbury comparisons, but since you brought this up, I see NO reason to believe Nash couldn't score every bit as much as Steph. While it's true Steph can penetrate better than most, Nash is one of the handful or two PGs every bit as good at cutting through a defense as Steph. Nash has career shooting percentages of:

fg .470, 3pt .415, ft .894

Those numbers for steph are:

fg .435, 3pt .320, ft .789

And remember that list of clutch players - the final tally that used PER and adjusted for not only the players own offensive production but also his defense against opponents? steph was not in the top 50 clutch players, but Nash was number 3. And for offensive production alone, Nash was number 1.

http://www.82games.com/clutchplay3.htm
Plus he can see his teammates and use their strengths to get points. You don't see him giving Curry the ball at the free throw line do you?

If Curry played PF and came to the perimeter to set screens i believe we would see passes to Curry at the FT line. I know we do when AD does, and frankly, I'd prefer Curry popping from there than AD.
If KT would have been in the paint, considering our limited offensive options last year, he would have gotten the ball in the paint. You can say that Steph doesn't make his teammates better, but he definitely uses and enhances their strengths. That's the only reason KT and Nazr got so many 20+ point games last year. KT won't have that this year because he is being asked to adapt to the Suns offense, and he can't.

I think 10 or so games into the season is a little early to assess what can or can't be done over there, but that's just me. That team is going through a lot of adjustments and how KT will fit in is just one of them. But whatever happens between now and Amare's full return may mean little after he returns anyway, good or bad.
IMO Steph is unique in the NBA because his game is similar to other scoring pgs like Francis, Bibby, Terry etc. but he can also see where his teammates will be in a useful position to utilize their strengths and use them. No he doesn't run the entire offense like Nash or Kidd, but he brings other things that they don't as well.

I guess that's where we differ, as i don't find Steph's playmaking skills all that unique in the NBA. Lets put it this way, if Steph were a career 13 ppg scorer he wouldn't be regarded in the upper echelon of PGs, as guys like Nash and Kidd are. He'd probably just be another Brevin Knight.
And the fact remains that Steph was the perfect pg for KT, and its looking more and more like Nash will never get as much out of him.

Just don't start making out that Steph is Rafer Alston or something, because he's not.

I see no reason why Nash couldn't work the pick-&-pop as effectively with Kurt, if that was the direction the Suns looked to go. And I really didn't start out comparing Steph to any PG, be it Nash or Alston, just trying to put my head into Kurt's to see where his criticisms might have come from considering his respectable personal numbers with Steph. (Though it should be noted those numbers were well off career bests.)

In the following post I will present a little research and write-up I did last season to put my instincts to the test as they relate to Steph's style of ball movement, and to explore why not all "scoring PGs" are created equally. FWIW, we are currently at 4-8 with 18.3 team assists per game.
BlueSeats
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11/27/2005  11:05 PM
Marbury and team assists (TAs)

I'd like to make a presentation of what I believe separates Marbury from the great scoring PGs of the game.

I do this for two reasons,

A) I keep hearing people say Marbury is a great PG, even though people like Bob Cousy and his former coach (COY) D'Antioni say otherwise. When I say it people suggest 8 apg is telling enough, but i believe these larger career trends tell far more.

B) I continually see people say "you can't win with a PG leading your team in scoring." History proves that statement blatantly false. There may be others I'm not aware of, but I know of three PGs who led their team to championships as their team's leading scorers:

Clyde, 1973 Knicks.
Magic, 1986 Lakers
Isiah, 1990 Pistons

However, these men not only were good scorers but good playmakers. They not only put up good personal stats but good team stats as well.

I believe one relevant indicator of an effective offense with good "flow" is team assists (TA). Team assists are a total of all assisted shots for the team including, but not limited to, the point guard's assists. High team assists is suggestive of ball movement not solely emanating from the PG position. It's "the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the bucket" approach. It's the antithesis of the ball movement we presently see on the Knicks, where the ball is either held or passed back and forth on the perimeter until late in the clock, then given back to the perimeter for low percentage jumpers or put in by the PG.

Below are relevant team assist stats of these great PGs. Without exception these men arrived at clubs which were under performing and produced immediate and lasting positive impacts on team assists and wins, and their departure was equally met by a concomitant falloff in production and success.

Isiah and Magic spent their entire careers with one club and retired before their time for health reasons. Clyde moved once (to Cleveland) in the twilight of his career.

Below I show the teams of each of these PGs before they arrived, then their impact, then the team after they left. the relevant variables noted were the year, team assists, win-loss record, and personal stats of the PG of the time.


Knicks:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
67 22.0 36-49 (Komives 15.7 ppg/6.2 apg)
68 24.0 43-39 (Clyde rookie 9.0/4.1)
73 26.7 57-25 (Clyde 21.1/5.9, leads team in scoring, wins Championship)
77 23.9 40-42 (17.4/5.3 Clyde's last season as Knick)
78 28.5 43-39 (Monroe 17.8/4.8)


Above we saw Clyde's effect on TAs upon arrival. However, they did not decrease after his departure with the ball in Monroe's HOF hands.

------

Lakers:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
79 28.5 47-35 (Nixon 17.1/9.0 (very impressive!))
80 29.4 60-22 (Magic rookie 18/7.3 Championship)
86 29.6 65-17 (Magic 23.9/12.2 leads team in scoring, wins championship)
91 25.5 58-24 (Magic's last healthy season, 19.4 ppg 7.0 rpg 12.5 apg)
92 22.0 39-43 (Threatt 15.1/7.2)

------

Pistons:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
81 22.2 21-61 (?)
82 24.7 39-43 (Isiah rookie 17/7.8 )
90 24.3 59-23 (Isiah 18.4/9.4 leads team in scoring, wins Championship)
93 23.7 40-42 (Isiah's last healthy year 17.6/8.5)
95 22.8 28-54 (Dumars 18.1/5.5)

------

Now, in contrast, we'll see Marbury has moved around a lot in his young career. And aside from a brief improvement to his first club, Minnesota (which also coincides with the comeuppance of Garnett and the career peak of Gogliotta), at each stop his arrival brings decline in both team assists and wins, while his departure brings a surge. This is the opposite of the greats above.

Minny:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
'96 22.8 26-56 (Porter 9.4/5.5)
'97 22.9 40-42 (Marbury 15.8/7.8 )
'98 25.2 45-37 (Marbury 17.7/8.6)
'99 24.4 25-25 (Marbury 17.7/9.3, Brandon 14.2/9.8 Marbury traded 18 games in ) (lockout season)
'00 26.9 50-32 (Brandon 17.1/8.9)

What stands out to me is that Marbury's energy and production over the aging Porter does result in an initial boost to the club, (as does the maturation of Garnett). Note how wins coincide with team assists and the surge in team assists after Marbury fully departs.

Nets:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
98 20.5 43-39 (Cassell 19.6/8.0)
99 18.4 16-34 (Cassell 18/4.8 Marbury 23.4/8.7)
00 20.6 31-51 (Marbury 22.2/8.4)
01 19.5 26-56 (Marbury 23.9/7.6)
02 24.3 50-32 (Kidd 14.7/9.9)

Note again how wins track team assists and the surge in TAs (and wins) upon Marbury's departure.

Suns:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
01 23.2 51-39 (Kidd 16.9/9.8 )
02 22.4 36-46 (Marbury 20.4/8.1)
03 21.0 44-38 (Marbury 22.3/8.1)
04 19.3 29-53 (Marbury/Eisley/Barbosa)
05 23.1 40-12 (Nash 16.3/11.3)

With the slight exception of '03, wins again closely track team assists and in that stat (team assist is what I'm looking at, regardless that his personals don't keep up with them either) Marbury can't keep pace with the premium PGs, like brandon, Nash and Kidd.

Knicks:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
03 22.7 37-45 (Ward 7.2/4.6 Eisley 9.1/5.4)
04 20.7 39-43 (Marbury/Ward/Eisley)
05 19.6 20-31 (Marbury 21.3/8.2)

If ever there were an opportunity for Steph to reverse the trends it was with the Knicks, known for years as a slow, unatheletic, jumpshooting squad with poor ball movement and substandard PGs. Even with a clean house, and presumably a better, retooled lineup, Steph keeps pace with his career trends and we see an overall reduction in team assists and wins.

The point here is not to bash Marbury by directly comparing him to the best of the NBA's point guards. The point is however to show how his career trends differ from theirs and why he has yet to earn himself the distinction his personal stats might otherwise afford him. It's not the scoring, it's not the personal assists... it's the slow tempo, the lack of ball movement and flow.
----

PS, those team records encompass his entire career. A close reading will reveal he's never won more than 45 wins and most seasons were spent well below .500. Doesn't mean he's a scrub, but he's clearly not a player who can carry a team or seemingly get them to play above the sum of their parts.
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11/27/2005  11:48 PM
Nice work, but I'd worry about pace about a confounding factor here. I'm not sure I'm seeing a big effect on team assists here, but in any case I'd be much more convinced one way or the other if you could list team assists per 100 possessions. Never trust per game stats.
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BlueSeats
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11/28/2005  12:21 AM
Either way I look at it....

On the one hand, if this were a single season issue I'd consider pace a significant factor, but 9 seasons with 4 teams, and the relativity to other PGs with those same teams, seems more conclusive as a larger trend issue than pace. (does that make sense?)

And on the other hand, I think marbury does tend to play at a slower pace then most of these other PGs, and that does take it's toll on assists, easy buckets, total points, etc. He makes for a sluggish, fight for buckets offense -- not an easy bucket offense, and we repeatedly hear his teammates lament that.

And it's not like this has come on great slow-it-down defensive juggernaut halfcourt teams. Not in the least.

What I will admit is that team assists do not necessarily correlate to winning teams. IOW, the team that leads the league in team assists isn't necessarily the best team, and good teams aren't necessarily high in team assists. That said, when the same team sees rises and dips in TAs it seems to yield a high correlation in wins losses, at least based on the relatively small sample size seen here.
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11/28/2005  12:35 AM
Nash's bread and butter last year was the pick and roll with Amare except Amre actually rolled ot the basket and could basically dunk it anywhere within 8 feet of the basket.

His other Bread and Butter move is the drive and kick to the open man.

I see Steph do the pick and pop(his bigs never roll) to perfection.

I see steph drive and kick constantly. One big difference is they have different personnel and totally different game strategies. Phoenix players can shoot whenever they want if their open. Our players cannot shoot early in the shotclock. Not to mention that they are a bunch of bricklayers outside of Chaning Frye, anyway.

The one thing that Nash does that Steph doesnt is dribble towwards the baseline into the hole and then out of it again. I think Nash partially does this becuase he is not athletic or strong enough to finish consistantly in traffic. Although this does lead to a pass to a cutter as well.

Conversely, I think Steph attacks the basket when hes in the paint because he is a strong finisher and rarely gets his shot blocked AND can absorb the contact and still get off a good shot. In addition, he draws alot of fouls and gets to the line often because of that.

Nash is a shooter, Marbs is not.
Marbs is a penetrate and finish guy, Nash is not.

Marbs is a better scorer, Nash is a better passer.
Those are my observations.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 11-28-2005 12:37 AM]
BlueSeats
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11/28/2005  12:48 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:

Nash is a shooter, Marbs is not.
Marbs is a penetrate and finish guy, Nash is not.

FWIW, according to 82games, Steph goes .549 from "close" while Nash goes .676

Steph does go close for a higher percentage of his scores, but I'm not sure he's decidedly better at it. Nash is a great finisher.
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11/28/2005  1:39 AM
Clyde, Magic, Isiah were on championship calibre teams. None of the teams Marbury was on was championship calibre.

And while they were the same franchises they weren't the same teams when Marbury left them. KG improved, they got Sczcerbiak, Joe Smith to go along with Brandon who they got for Marbury, plus other vets. Nets got Kittles healthy, KVH healthy, K-Mart healthy and improved, Jefferson,Todd Mac, and Collins to go along with Kidd. Suns got Q richardson, healthy and improved Amare and Joe Johnson, Marion playing his best basketball in the twilight of his career, Steven Hunter, improved Barbosa, to go along with Steve Nash.

I agree though. Brandon, Kidd, Nash, Clyde, Magic, Isiah did run there offenses better than Marbury. But its not about the past anymore. Its about Marbury under Brown. Marbury has never had a coach like Brown before. And Brown is considerd the 2nd best coach in the NBA today. So lets see how this works out. Im sure before Billups did it nobody thought he would be able to bring his game to the level he did in detroit, and win finals MVP.
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kurt talks about the knicks/steph (article)
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