I think Simmons' analysis is pretty on-point. How can you say Isiah has assembled a solid team here? Nobody in the NBA has ever wanted Marbury. Every team he's left has done better without him. Jerome James is a flat-out bust. He can't rebound, can't defend, isn't in good shape. Why was this guy signed for FIVE YEARS and a MULTI MILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT?! He can do nothing. He overhyped Nazr and TT, saying he'd turn them into what they could always be and nothing happened. They got absolutely worked by the Nets in their only playoff appearanace under Isiah. He's drafted well, but now the rookies aren't getting minutes. Maurice Taylor sucks, and he gave up a 2nd rounder for him in addition to giving up Moochie, who was an expiring contract.

I mean, try to at least look at the article objectively, he isn't making terrible points. Isiah can pick talent, thats all he can do. He got fired in Toronto, ruined the CBA, and the Pacers' teams won the year he left. Look at the facts, not Simmons opinion (Simmons, by the way, predicted all of this would happen...that at least gives him some credibility in my opinion.)

Crawford simply is NOT working out. Richardson was a nice pickup, giving up an aging 4 for an in-his-prime wing, but lets get serious, he's not going to do anything big.

I love the Knicks and want to see them turn it around, and I know it sucks to have your feelings hurt, but this team just is very poorly assembled with small forwards, shoot first points, and nobody who can play defense. Is anybody going to dispute that?

My response to Bill:

Bill,

I just read your Knicks column, and while it was nice to see you compliment Knicks fans, I think your article is more inaccurate than accurate.

First, Brown has been playing the rookies/youth. Ariza and Frye have been playing solid minutes, in fact Ariza is starting against LAL tonight. Frye has been extremely impressive so far and would actually be getting more minutes if he could avoid foul trouble. But his game against the Kings was impressive. Frye looks to be a very solid player. Of course he's not getting the shot attempts of a guy like Charlie Villanueva yet, but hopefully that will improve.

I actually completely agree about your starting lineup for the Knicks: Curry - C, Frye - PF, Ariza - SF, Q - SG, Marbs - PG and Jamal as the sixth man. Brown has stuck to ADavis irrationally so far, but one has to think it will change as Frye learns to avoid foul trouble. I would be surprised if Frye wasn't starting by January. Lee and Robinson have also played about 10mpg so far. Lee has definitely earned more, and hopefully he'll get there. Lee is not just an energy guy, he's a tremendous passer/playmaker (as is Ariza) and rebounder and he runs the floor like a demon. As much as you try to disparage this team in comparison to Zeke's Pistons, Lee would actually be a perfect fit as a John Salley/Rodman type pogo stick PF who runs and rebounds and creates havoc. Ariza would fit that Pistons team too. Crawford is growing into his bench role (which was always the intention with him) and becoming the team's fourth quarter assassin.

The main issue I have is your assessment of Marbury and how he'll work with Brown. Two years ago, as Marbury entered the 2003-4 season (or maybe it was when you did the top 40 untradeable guys article that summer), you claimed that lightbulb had gone on for Marbury and he was finally living up to his potential. Phoenix had just given San Antonio their toughest series in the 2003 playoffs, losing in 6 games but losing two of those games by two points. You seemed enamored with Marbury then. Then, Amare goes down to start 03-04 season and Phoenix struggles to stay at .500 (kind of like they're doing this season so far). The Suns decide Marbury and Penny are killing their cap and dump him to the Knicks for a package people seemed to claim was strong for the Suns with picks and young players, but ended up being all about cap room as the picks were sold off by the Suns and the young players stank. Marbury showed up in New York with the dregs of Layden's roster and for despite dragging a team that was 11-19 to the playoffs when he showed up, gets blamed for not making the Knicks better. Enter 04-05 and the team finds out that Houston basically won't play all season and suddenly Crawford is the starting SG. Marbury is playing with a team of backups. So how does their failure last season ammount to being Marbury's fault? How is Marbury not still capable of being the player whose light bulb clicked on, especially under Brown who transformed Chauncey Billups into a guy who should make the all-star team this year and a Finals MVP? Marbury has been working his butt off to make this work and he's been playing very well. He'll probably score a lot less this season and maybe get less assists in Brown's system, but his D is improved and he's actually running the offense like a real, non-stats obsessed PG. Give Marbury some credit. It seems like Marbury's association with Isiah has somehow tainted him in your eyes. But, really, how is he different from the Marbury entering the 03-04 season whose light bulb had gone on and who you rated (I believe) as the 12th most untouchable player in the land? I don't think he is different. And you've seen Pierce rejuvenate himself, why can't Marbury? Heck, he was ninth in the league at making baskets at the rim last year, in a top 12 that was populated by superstars (you can find this article on 82games.com - I love them). Also, speaking of 82games.com, Marbury's plus/minus last year was 0, so the team was even with him on the court. When he left the court, the team was -12. He had NO ONE last year. Please don't overrate Kurt Thomas. Everything Kurt got on offense was a direct result of Marbury setting him up in the pick and pop. Jamal freelanced to scary ends. Everything Nazr got came on the drive and dish. Tim Thomas is trash. He had NO ONE.

This year, however, he has two 22 year-old 6'11" F/Cs in Curry and Frye who have the potential to be unstoppable in the paint and have looked great so far. Please stop harping on Curry's mysterious heart problem. He's not Reggie Lewis. Lewis was NOT cleared to play by the super team of docs. He got a second opinion and was finally cleared. Curry has been cleared to play by every single doctor he's ever met - he was told by one doctor that he should have a genetic test. This doctor of course runs genetic testing and wants more data. The fact that Paxson decided to focus on this test is of course his decision, but it doesn't mean Curry or Isiah should be condemned for their decision to listen to every doctor saying he was healthy. You know what I think? I think Curry lost the 50-60lbs he dropped last season due to diet supplements. The heart arrythmia he experience is consistent with many people's reaction to ephedra. Notice, Curry is chunkier this season. He's still in better shape than he was prior to the 04-05 season, but his face isn't as unnaturally thin as it was during last season with the Bulls. I think Curry got some bad advice about losing weight to get a max deal and that caused the heart problem. I think Paxson was in his rights to be skeptical of Curry, but remember he never liked Curry as a player and the Bulls and Knicks almost traded Curry for Sweetney last November. I think it was irresponsible of Paxson to make the genetic profiling a national issue, because, you know what? That type of profiling is illegal in 42 states in America. There's a reason it should be private because genetic testing doesn't tell you that HAVE something it tells you that you MIGHT develop something. It's wrong for any employer to make a decision based on that information.

Finally, I think you are underestimating the potential of the current Knicks roster. Marbury, Q, Ariza, Frye and Curry is a fine, talented and big starting lineup. There is skill at every position. Frye has shown to be a tremendous defender. Curry, Marbury and Crawford certainly have the skill set to be terrific defenders and they have been giving the effort this season. Curry had 5 blocks in Utah. This team may only win 40 games THIS season, and have no illusions, they will win 40 games minimum, but they have a chance to improve GREATLY strictly from within. Curry is 22. Frye is 22. Ariza is 20. Crawford and Q are 25. Lee and Nate are 21. Marbury is only 28 and built like a pit bull.

The key is patience. Isiah finally does like his roster. The key to winning in the NBA is keeping a roster together over a number of years and living with the bumps and learning to play through them and growing. I think Isiah has done a tremendous job outside of the Jerome James disaster and the Mo Taylor trade. I think as long as he keeps the nucleus intact and doesn't shake things up too much with the expiring deals of Penny and AD, the Knicks will see tremendous improvement not only in 05-06 but in 06-07. Remember, the Bulls started 0-9 last year. The Heat started 0-7 when Wade first got to town. These things take time. I would hope an intelligent writer like you would preach patience, rather than condemn a tremendous rebuilding job Isiah has done less than two years into the job. The Knicks will be fine as long as Isiah doesn't listen to the alarmist media. Pretend that this is the Celtics. The media is in a frenzy demanding immediate results, wouldn't you write a column trying to calm your fellow Celts fans that the nucleus is very solid and Marbury has been unfairly criticized and that this team actually has a future? Maybe I'm blinded by orange and blue, but I think this team has a chance to be special in the next few years. Larry needs to trust his kids, but when they play defense he has in the past. Look at Okur and Prince in Detroit - they played. Darko still hasn't played this season and looked like crap in four minutes against the Celts last night. The only talented youth Larry ever wrongly sat on was Jalen and Larry Hughes, and you have to admit, they have serious flaws to their games. He played Ratliff heavily in Philly in his third season, he built the team around Iverson in only his second year there. Give the Knicks a chance.

He's 65 years old.

and? is that suppossed to mean he can't coach anymore? My dad is 67 and he's in the woods cutting down trees and digging trenches. Simmons is an ageist.

He's working with Isiah Thomas.

and? Joe Dumars, Vinnie Johnson, Rodman, Laimbeer all worked with Isiah to some good results. So does that popcorn guy.

I guess he's implying that the two won't get along. So he's saying the Knicks suck because he thinks that somehow their relationship will go sour. Sounds like fortune-telling to me, not analysis.

The team has six new players, a new coaching system and no cohesive presence (like Steve Nash in Phoenix).

Oh my god! It may take sometime to jell. NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

If Brown has a weakness ... it has been his inability to connect with younger players

recycled garbage disproven again and again. Brown loves to teach young players. He may feel that they need to earn their time. But is that a bad thing? Frye's so good that he's already earned significant court time. Yeah, Brown's really holding him back from greatness. Not to mention he played tayshaun as a starter.

Now he faces the remarkable situation of overhauling a team that he just spent the last two years overhauling

It's called "improving." And yes, it is quite remarkable.

someone who would undoubtedly make a series of grandiose short-term moves that would destroy the long-term future of the franchise. And that's precisely what happened.

That's not at all what happened. None of his short term moves were grandiose at all. steph was a long term move. So he aquired Penny, if he wants, his contract is gone at the end of the season. Nazr, short term move that allowed us to get David lee and save money. Tim Thomas, short term moved that allowed us to get Curry. Kurt Thomas for Q, allowed us to get a shooter and another pick.

whatever, there's so many holes in his argument I'm getting bored refuting them all.

opinions.

let's not forget that he's a celtic fan and is from boston.

if he really did watch the games, and not go by the box score and recaps, he will see growth but chances are he hasn't.

opinions. you have them. i have them. he has them. he just has a bigger forum to express them.

time will reveal all...

because we all know that looking beyond the first couple of months when larry whips the kids into shape and gets the vets on the same page a roster of:
marbs/Q/Ariza/Frye/Curry with a bench of Crawford/Nate/Lee and a veteran sprinkling of Rose/MoT/AD is a very well put together team.

I'm in love with this team, and I'm looking forward to Curry/Frye for a long time to come.

now, will the knicks allow isiah to enjoy the fruits of his labor (unlike toronto, indiana and the CBA for that matter) and/or allow marbury to build chemistry and enjoy success on a team (unlike Minnesota [his own doing], Nets and Phoenix) remains to be seen.

But if patience enters into everyone's thought process, we could build a high quality contending every year team in 3 - 5 years.

Shaq will be over the hill by then, and there are not other young teams that much more head and shoulders better than the knicks.

So, while everyone is realizing that Brown likes to start out rough and build (0-5 start, crazy lineups, bruised egos), anybody that is actually paying attention to the games can see that we are getting better everyday.

The only issue I had with the article was that it was long.

I'm actually enjoying the naysayers...Isles hasn't posted in days.

That means the knicks may be onto something.

It's getting to the point where hte knicks will lose only when the other team is playing superbly, then it will be the knicks lose only to better teams.

Then it will be, the knicks should have beaten the spurs, but they were a tired bunch after defeating the heat in 7 games.

crzymdups, excellent post in your response to Bill, you covered pretty much everything

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5086978

link for this week

What did he say that was wrong in the article, nearly every trade Isiah has made has been terrible, no exceptions he adds terrible contracts and under motivated me first players.....

Larry simply likes ****ing with people, he already lost one game golden state on his own, and continues to make questionable decisions with Malik Rose and Matt Barnes. Its a crime that Ariza is not starting, Lee is losing minutes and confidence and I'm sure feels pressure to try to earn rotation minutes....Fyre needs to be out there to open up the post for curry and use the pick and roll with marbury......Marbury needs a rest Crawford should play until he inserts Nate in which case Steph needs to be on the floor.....Malik and Davis should never play 20 minutes.......

Q is a gunner lets be honest, he had three All-Stars and one budding All-Star in the lineup so of course he is going to get open shots, he didn't shoot a high percentage whats really there to mention....its one thing if he is shooting 44% and taking smart shots but lets look at the situation before saying everyone's opinion is wrong.....

Would anyone with a brain trade for Crawford or sign Jerome James......not likely but Isiah did

Isiah was let go in Toronto because he wanted to buy the team. They wasn't going to let that happen so they mad him seem like a failure. Which is wrong he drafted the best players Toronto ever had except for Vince Carter. Who have they drafted since who made any type of impact in this league Matt Bonner and Arajuo?

Thomas resigns as Toronto's GM
Stoudamire, Camby may follow Isiah out the door
Posted: Thu November 20, 1997 at 9:48 PM ET


ATLANTA (CNN/SI) -- Months of internal manuevering ended Thursday when Isiah Thomas resigned as executive vice president of the Toronto Raptors.

TNT/TBS reporter Bryan Burwell reported early Thursday afternoon that Thomas tendered his resignation to the team. Thomas had been with the Raptors since 1994.

Glen Grunwald, currently the assistant general manager for Toronto, will replace Thomas immediately.

According to Thomas' agent, Frank Vuono, the Raptors will buy out Thomas' nine percent ownership.

Vuono also is negotiating a deal for Thomas with NBC, which Burwell reported Tuesday already was in the works.

According to a published report in Tuesday's Toronto Star, Thomas will leave the Raptors to join NBC as an NBA analyst and also host his own show on CNBC.

CNN/SI's Jackie MacMullan is reporting that, in light of Thomas's resignation, Toronto guard Damon Stoudamire will inform Raptors officials that he will be leaving the team when he becomes a free agent following this season and that forward Marcus Camby is considering requesting a trade.

"I'm more disappointed than upset," Stoudamire said before Thursday's game at Houston. "I think he meant a lot to this team. He brought these players here and got us started in the right direction."

Thomas was not immediately available for comment. A news conference has been scheduled for Friday.

"It is with regret that we say goodbye to Isiah Thomas," Raptors majority owner Allan Slaight said. "He has made an important contribution to this franchise and we will miss him.

"He has laid a solid foundation for the Raptors, one that we will continue to build on for years to come. But what is positive about this team is that one member can move on, and everyone pulls together to ensure that the team continues to build and grow."

NBC spokesman Ed Markey told Burwell he was unaware of any completed deal between his network and Thomas.

However, a spokesman for NBA commissioner David Stern did confirm that the commissioner and his assistant, Russ Granik, were aware of negotiations between Thomas and NBC and of his plans to leave the Raptors.

The Raptors said Thomas turned down "a very attractive and comprehensive package to stay." And Slaight called the resignation a "lifestyle decision."

But Vuono told The Fan radio station Thursday that Slaight and the Raptors weren't bargaining in good faith, leaving Thomas no choice but to quit.

Lifestyle was not an issue in the news earlier this week. Money and control were.

Thomas failed earlier this year in a bid to buy out Slaight and relations between the two were reported to be strained ever since. Also, construction of the Raptors' new arena has been a money drain.

When Thomas joined the team, fellow Indiana University grad John Bitove was the most visible member of the Raptors ownership group. Slaight ended up buying out Bitove last year and his ownership has not always seen eye-to-eye with Thomas, according to reports.

The face of the Raptors may change dramatically with Thomas' departure.

Stoudamire, the Raptor's starting guard and captain, said he wasn't surprised at the announcement.

"I always talk to him about certain things," Stoudamire said. "I knew this day would come, I just didn't know when. We'd already sat in that room and talked. We are with him whatever he does.

"I told him he had to do what he had to do. I would have done the same thing."

Asked why, Stoudamire added "You can write between the lines whatever you want, but I'll just say I would have done what he did."

Thomas has been synonymous with the Raptors since joining the club May 24, 1994. He was a popular figure in Toronto.

Grunwald, who joined the Raptors in November 1994 after four years with the Denver Nuggets, inherits an injury-riddled team, mired in a seven-game losing streak heading into Thursday night's game in Houston.

Under Thomas, the Raptors won 21 games their inaugural season one short of the modern-era expansion record. The team also finished third in the league in attendance, averaging 23,179 per game in the unfriendly confines of Skydome. Last season, they finished 30-52.

"When we go back to Toronto, I'll sit down and I'll express my views, trust me," Raptors coach Darrell Walker said. "If I am going to be the coach, that's fine, but I need to know and I need to know right away.

"I'd love to stay with these guys. They respect me and Isiah. We're going to keep playing. There will be some tough stretches but I'm going to coach this team and have some fun on the sidelines."

The only reason he was let go in Indiana is because of a very well planned backstabbing from Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird. They had the youngest team in the league to ever make the playoffs yet they underachieved. That's complete and total BS. This article tells the story




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O'Neal unhappy with Thomas' firing

August 28, 2003 Print it


SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico -- Jermaine O'Neal would not have re-signed with the Indiana Pacers if he had known they were going to fire Isiah Thomas.

"I don't know who I would have signed with, but I would not have signed back there. Bottom line," O'Neal said early Thursday at the Tournament of the Americas, where he is competing for the United States in qualifying for the 2004 Olympics.

Visibly angered and upset by the move to fire Indiana's coach, O'Neal said he'll address the situation with the Pacers' front office next week. He would not answer when asked if he would demand a trade.

"Am I disappointed? Hell, yeah. I'm extremely disappointed for multiple reasons," O'Neal said. "I was told he would be here before I re-signed."

"If your boss told you your ace is going to be there for you if you come back, and once you come back not even a month later he's not there, that hurts. That hurts a lot. He was more than a coach to me. He was like a father."

O'Neal joined the Pacers three years ago after Larry Bird resigned and was replaced by Thomas. Indiana made the playoffs for three straight years but was eliminated in the first round each time.

Bird, who returned to the Pacers last month as their president of basketball operations, fired Thomas on Wednesday and said the team plans to hire Rick Carlisle as its new coach.

O'Neal got the news in a phone call from Thomas.

"It was extremely strange. I was taking a nap and got the phone call and was like, let me sit up for a second, you're kidding me," O'Neal said. "I was extremely excited about coming back into the situation. We have a crew that's been together for a while and is really ready to focus in on trying to get to the NBA Finals. I don't know exactly where my organization is trying to go. I'm kind of dumbfounded right now."

O'Neal said he telephoned Bird and team president Donnie Walsh asking for an explanation, giving no details except to say it was a brief discussion.

He said it was Walsh who assured him during contract negotiations that Thomas would return. O'Neal signed a seven-year, $126 million deal.

"To me, it's mind-blowing that we would do this, and do it 4-5 weeks before the season," O'Neal said. "I'm more hurt than anything."

O'Neal had spoken with Thomas earlier this week in Puerto Rico, where Thomas was attending the Tournament of the Americas.

Thomas checked out of his hotel unexpectedly Tuesday after being summoned back to Indianapolis.

"He didn't really sound upset. I think he's more hurt than anything. He's been trying to scrap up new plays, new ways to get his players motivated," O'Neal said.

O'Neal spoke on the phone with teammates Al Harrington, Jonathan Bender and Jamison Brewer after learning of the firing.

"Everybody's just extremely surprised. We were geared up to go at this real strong. Now we've got to retool, look at a new system," O'Neal said. "I mean, I don't know if we're really trying to win the championship this year."

Bird said he didn't feel comfortable with the Pacers' direction after a second-half swoon that knocked them out of first place in the Eastern Conference. Bird also said there were other problems with Thomas, including a lack of communication this summer.

O'Neal defended Thomas, saying the public never knew that he occasionally slept in his office at Conseco Fieldhouse after staying late to draw up game plans.

"The slump at the end of the season, we were still 16 games over .500. What else do you want?" O'Neal said. "I thought in this league you're determined on what you do, wins and losses. He's 16 games better than he was the year before, and he's taking one of the youngest teams in the league and making them contenders and giving us confidence to say that we feel we can come out of the East and get to the finals.

"That was our goal, but all of a sudden now we're not really trying to get to the finals. We're trying to get guys together and compete. I didn't come back to Indiana just to compete. I want to win the finals." O'Neal had a poor game for the U.S. team Wednesday night in a 96-69 victory over Mexico, fouling out in just 12 minutes after scoring 11 points and grabbing seven rebounds.

"I'm continuing to figure it out every single year: Life is a challenge, and the ones that succeed in life are the tough-minded ones that are not willing to accept failure," O'Neal said. "And no matter what, at the end of the day whether it's with the Pacers or somewhere else, I'm going to continue to succeed."

[Edited by - boomann on 11-16-2005 4:10 PM]