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Ariza is becoming a star before our eyes
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Rich
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11/6/2005  8:37 PM
Posted by OldFan:

Star not a Star - I don't know. He certainly is fun though and he's getting better.

I agree with that.
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fishmike
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11/6/2005  8:57 PM
Posted by OldFan:

Star not a Star - I don't know. He certainly is fun though and he's getting better.
exactly... these guys place such crazy expectations on EVERY guy that dones the uni. Just enjoy them and watch them get better. Hopefully Ariza is a core player of a good team. He brings good things to the table.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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11/6/2005  9:00 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
You can look at a guy and see how he moves on offense. Ariza doesn't have that smooth flow on offense like tmac or as a better example rashard lewis
Are you comparing those guys in their primes to Ariza now or those guys when they had just turned 20 to Ariza now? The latter is the only fair comparison. Those guys to do much early in their careers at all.
if you watched those guys you could see solid instincts with the ball. Ariza hasnt shown that. But I'm sure he will learn. All the Knicks under 25 wil learn to be stars and if you dont think so your hating. God forbid we just have a team that plays the right way. Where have I heard that?


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Allanfan20
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11/6/2005  9:00 PM
He reminds me of a short version of Marcus Camby. He doesn't really have many offensive skills, but he'll get his points by hustle and driving to the rack. His defense is pretty good so far, but he still has things to learn. Is he ever going to be with the Kobes and T-Macs? No, that's insane to expect that out of him. Come on, they were skillful throughout there whole LIVES. Ariza can't even hit a jumper consistently yet. It's not about "He does better than most 20 YOs." It's about his skill set. He's a lot like Marcus Camby now, and if he enhances his game more, 12/8 will be great along with a couple steals and maybe a block a game. But he hasn't shown the SKILLS to be a star. He has the heart of a lioness though, that's fo' sho'
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Nalod
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11/6/2005  9:05 PM
Jefferson was a dunker with no shot when he came in.

This kid is gonna be great!
fishmike
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11/6/2005  9:06 PM
doesnt mean he cant be a hell of a good player for the next 10 years.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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11/6/2005  9:10 PM
Interesting discussion so far. After watching Trevor last year and now watching him this year he looks like a much better player. He's hitting jumpers with a little more consistency and his defense is even better then what is was last year which was already pretty damn good. If he keeps improving like he does he'll have the chance to be a fringe All-Star but I think thats his ceiling. He has to learn when to dunk the ball and when to lay it in becuase even watching today it's still evident he tries to throw everything down and in that loss agains the Celtics he blew a dunk near the end of the game.

Trevor has improved greatly from last year and I think thats good sign, especially in the jumper department, he's only 20 so thats a great sign. 5 years from now he should be a much much rounded player.
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crzymdups
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11/6/2005  9:18 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
You can look at a guy and see how he moves on offense. Ariza doesn't have that smooth flow on offense like tmac or as a better example rashard lewis
Are you comparing those guys in their primes to Ariza now or those guys when they had just turned 20 to Ariza now? The latter is the only fair comparison. Those guys to do much early in their careers at all.
if you watched those guys you could see solid instincts with the ball. Ariza hasnt shown that. But I'm sure he will learn. All the Knicks under 25 wil learn to be stars and if you dont think so your hating. God forbid we just have a team that plays the right way. Where have I heard that?

I think Ariza has great instincts with the ball, he's a good passer/playmaker. His dribble and shot selection are improving. How are people predicting Ariza be a star off-base when he's 20 and averaging 10 and 6 when some other people on the board were predicting 23yr old Sweetney would be a star after averaging 8 and 5?

Ariza plays great D, finishes on the break, rebounds, passes. If he improves his shot and dribble he could be a star. Richard Jefferson is one guy who constantly works on his shot and dribble and look where it got him. He had an Ariza-like career at Arizona (where he played three college seasons to Ariza's one), and an Ariza-like rookie season. Playing with JKidd obviously helped him a lot, but he worked his but off to the point where he's a automatic all-star every year.

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islesfan
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11/6/2005  9:29 PM
Posted by MX25:

He's not a star. Because he'll never be a big time scorer but he'll be a productive player like Prince.


The Knicks would be extremely fortunate if Ariza became the player that Prince is. Personally I don't see it. Prince has well developed basketball skills and Ariza just doesn't.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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11/6/2005  9:48 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
You can look at a guy and see how he moves on offense. Ariza doesn't have that smooth flow on offense like tmac or as a better example rashard lewis
Are you comparing those guys in their primes to Ariza now or those guys when they had just turned 20 to Ariza now? The latter is the only fair comparison. Those guys to do much early in their careers at all.
if you watched those guys you could see solid instincts with the ball. Ariza hasnt shown that. But I'm sure he will learn. All the Knicks under 25 wil learn to be stars and if you dont think so your hating. God forbid we just have a team that plays the right way. Where have I heard that?

I think Ariza has great instincts with the ball, he's a good passer/playmaker. His dribble and shot selection are improving. How are people predicting Ariza be a star off-base when he's 20 and averaging 10 and 6 when some other people on the board were predicting 23yr old Sweetney would be a star after averaging 8 and 5?

That's not fair; Sweetney's #s were deflated because every coach and every PG he's ever played with didn't utilize his superb low-post skills correctly

oohah
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11/6/2005  11:42 PM
Will Ariza be a star? I don't know but I think he has star potential. The player he reminds me of the most right now is Shawn Marion. Marion has decent skills, he is very athletic, always in motion, and plays the right way, so he always gets his. I think Ariza is in the Marion mold.

oohah

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EnySpree
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11/7/2005  1:11 AM
Everything is jumpshot with you guys....

What about ball handling? He is a terrible ball handler. He doesn't dribble with his head up and he rarely dribbles more than twice unless he is all alone on the break.

We don't want Ariza spotting up on the perimeter we need Ariza active around the rim. He needs to focus on his ball handling so he can control his drives to the hoop and become a scorer. Right now he is just a high energy player. He gets put backs and dunks. It would be nice to see him create off the dribble and get closer to the rim and finish with something other than a dunk.

Dude is a good player but he needs to get better. He looks stronger but he actually needs to work on his game and get better. He's 20!!!! I would think at 20 his handle would be decent cuz all the kids nowadays have some sort of handle.....especially swingmen.

The jumper will come with repitition but Ariza needs to be able to handle and become a scorer. That is what the Knicks need from the 3 spot.
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bobs3304
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11/7/2005  1:17 AM
If push came to show I'd trade Ariza.

But I'd rather keep him just so we can raise him like our own...

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 11-07-2005 01:17 AM]
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technomaster
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11/7/2005  1:43 AM
Ariza's a lot like these players when they first came into the league:
Richard Jefferson
Shandon Anderson (25th pick of the 2nd round in 1994--he was a huge spark w/ the Utah finals teams)
Josh Howard
Desmond Mason
Corey Maggette
Shawn Marion
Scottie Pippen

They were all young athletes who all wanted to throw it down if they were anywhere near the basket. All of them (except Maggette) were older than Ariza... and all of them were a little more physically developed in their rookie years than him.

Judging by where he is today, I think he could potentially reach the Jefferson/Matrix levels of production. Marion's 3pt accuracy seem to come from nowhere in his 3rd season-- same thing happened w/ Jefferson.

The jury is still out on Josh Howard's upside at age 25 (in his 3rd season)... but with more minutes and a bigger role in Dallas's offense, it seems as if he's turning into a mini-Matrix.

Ariza played point-forward quite a bit in the summer league, so that part of his game is developing. In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a career year in the next decade where he averaged 18+ppg/7+rpg/2+spg and earned all-star status. Judging by the improvements/adjustments he's made since last season, the player we'll see at age 25 will be very evolved from what we see now-- and perhaps making 10mil/year. Let's just hope he's still a Knick when that happens. :)

[Edited by - technomaster on 11-07-2005 01:44 AM]
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rvhoss
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11/7/2005  9:28 AM
just to clarify the thread, and I think some are in agreement, becoming a star could simply mean makes the all star team.
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islesfan
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11/7/2005  10:36 AM
Just to clarify a little further, you need to cut back on the Kool Aid if you think Ariza is going to become a star.

Magliore made the All Star team and people here don't view him as a star. Just check the "Bucks trade for Magliore" thread.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Knight
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11/7/2005  10:39 AM
Ariza will never be a star. Can you ever imagine Ariza really dominating another opponent or a game? He's not a skill player. People learn to shoot and dribble when they are very young, not when the get into the NBA.
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knicksmsg33
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11/7/2005  11:04 AM
Ariza is already a star for us, , i know he is not there offensively right now, but as the season goes on, there will be more calls and shots for him to take and he will maximize on that. A Star is by each one's perspective, to me Ariza is already a star and i love the kid. If we could get Ariza to start and Barnes backing him up, it will help to advance his game much more than it is now. I mean look at Andre Igu. he got soo much better with playing time as did Marion and RJ. so if Ariza can get his 25mpg we will see what he has to deliver and he doesn't have to score 20pts to be a star, 12 rebounds, 3-5 steals, 1-2 blocks and say 5pts is a star to me, look at AK47, he doesn't score all that much, it is what he brings to his team that makes him so much of a star, adn Ariza brings some of that quality of play, he is not there fully, but give the youngest knick in franchise history and he will deliver.
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oohah
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11/7/2005  11:11 AM
What about ball handling? He is a terrible ball handler.

Ariza ain't Magic Johnson. He has very limited ball-handling skills. But he is not a terrible ballhandler. The reason he is not a terrible ball handler is that he knows his limitations and strengths. He doesn't try to dribble too much. Most of his ball handling consists of passing which he is pretty good at. More intricate ball handling is a skill that can be built with time.

He doesn't dribble with his head up and he rarely dribbles more than twice unless he is all alone on the break.

I can't say I've noticed whether or not he is looking at the ball when he dribbles, but I think it is a good thing that he doesn't dribble much. He knows what he is good at, and that is what he tries to do. He plays smart and unselfish.

Dude is a good player but he needs to get better. He looks stronger but he actually needs to work on his game and get better. He's 20!!!! I would think at 20 his handle would be decent cuz all the kids nowadays have some sort of handle.....especially swingmen.

Interesting point...I understand Ariza is Panamanian or something. I wonder is he even grew up playing basketball from birth the way Americans do or if he picked it up in his teen years. I think his handle has gotten better, I saw him do some breaking down of his defensive player in the summer league.

Just to clarify a little further, you need to cut back on the Kool Aid if you think Ariza is going to become a star.

Was that the clarification?

Magliore made the All Star team and people here don't view him as a star. Just check the "Bucks trade for Magliore" thread.

Was this the clarification? Because it seems more of a statement of semantic definition. I thought we were talking basketball.

Ariza will never be a star. Can you ever imagine Ariza really dominating another opponent or a game?

Yes.

He's not a skill player.

There are, have been, and will be players that are stars who aren't 'skill players'.

People learn to shoot and dribble when they are very young, not when the get into the NBA.

When people are 6' 8" they learn all kinds of skills at the NBA level.

***

I am not saying Ariza is a can't miss superstar, but he has heart and he is a smart player. He is also one of the best athletes on the court whenever he steps onto it. At 20, I think that equals star potential.

oohah

P.S. enyspree, you got me this week, you sonofagun! Your boys were hot, my boys were not! (Except for Paul Pierce, he kept me in the game.)





[Edited by - oohah on 11-07-2005 11:15 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/7/2005  11:13 AM
Ariza is already a star for us, , i know he is not there offensively right now, but as the season goes on, there will be more calls and shots for him to take and he will maximize on that. A Star is by each one's perspective, to me Ariza is already a star and i love the kid. If we could get Ariza to start and Barnes backing him up, it will help to advance his game much more than it is now. I mean look at Andre Igu. he got soo much better with playing time as did Marion and RJ. so if Ariza can get his 25mpg we will see what he has to deliver and he doesn't have to score 20pts to be a star, 12 rebounds, 3-5 steals, 1-2 blocks and say 5pts is a star to me, look at AK47, he doesn't score all that much, it is what he brings to his team that makes him so much of a star, adn Ariza brings some of that quality of play, he is not there fully, but give the youngest knick in franchise history and he will deliver.

Well said. I Especially agree with your comparison to Kirilenko, and how Ariza needs playing time to develop and shine.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Ariza is becoming a star before our eyes

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