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check out this boxscore--tell me if you see something scary
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islesfan
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10/21/2005  10:40 AM
Posted by MX25:

I never liked the Marbury trade. We gave up young guys and picks just to keep on losing. I would be more excited about this team if we had Lampe and our 2004 1st rounder (that would of been top 10 pick).


Yeah, imagine if we tanked that season instead of being welcomed to a 4 game sweep by the Nets. We would have had a high draft pick that year, we would have kept the second pick that we owe them and we would have much more cap flexibility without Marbury and Penny.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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fishmike
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10/21/2005  10:47 AM
its easier for me to image what it was like when guys like Eisley and Ward were running the team. Anyway... Isiah couldnt even draft one starter quality player with 3 #1's so why lament over a pick here or a pick there?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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10/21/2005  10:56 AM
Posted by TheloniusMonk:
Posted by BRIGGS:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2005102003


LOL Hooray for Lampe!!

But didn't he drop some numbers in Preseason a few times?



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islesfan
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10/21/2005  10:57 AM
Posted by fishmike:

its easier for me to image what it was like when guys like Eisley and Ward were running the team. Anyway... Isiah couldnt even draft one starter quality player with 3 #1's so why lament over a pick here or a pick there?



Because if we tanked and had a choice of Okafor or Howard I'm sure even Isiah couldn't mess that up.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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10/21/2005  11:13 AM
probably right but remember we were playing pretty well with Frank, Shandon, KVH, KT and Deke. I'm not sure that team makes the playoffs (Bos did w/ 37 wins.. you never know) but they werent getting anything to a close pick that year.

The two years to tank were last year and the Lebron draft.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tomverve
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10/21/2005  11:23 AM
Looking back and imagining what could have been done is a bad way to assess GMing, because there's so much uncertainty that even the best GM is going to do a suboptimal job in hindsight sooner or later. It's kind of like in the draft, when a team gets slammed for making a pick when it turns out a guy who got picked a bit later wound up being better. There's just lots of guesswork and estimations involved, nothing is an exact science here. The important thing isn't necessarily that you get the best guy available at your pick (because even the best evaluators can't predict everything perfectly), but just that you get a guy who becomes a solid contributor to your team, roughly commensurate with where in the draft you're selecting.

Likewise for our overall team situation. Has Isiah made the best available acquisitions at every step of the way? Probably not, but no one does. That's an unrealistic standard to hold a GM to. The better question to ask is has Isiah improved the team significantly given what he had to work with, and the answer there is a clear yes. Think of it this way, if you're trading on the stock market and you get a 500% return on your investments over a couple of years, are you happy with where you are or are you kicking yourself because, looking back, you could have turned 700% profit? You should be happy with yourself because you did damn well, and besdies, there's no way to have known for sure the way to make a perfect move each time to get 700% return, unless you have a time machine.
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BRIGGS
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10/21/2005  11:30 AM
i dont know, i think it's pretty darn impressive that when you get your number called for the first time to play extended minutes--and against the spurs at 20 years old, and you pull off 23 points 12 rebounds 2 blocks, thats pretty impressive, its not the summer league, its 5 games into nBA pre-season--has any of our million dollar knicks pulled down 12 rebounds yet--i dont think they will that went wayside with KT and Nazr--we have guys who get 6 or 7 if they happen to fall into their hands.
RIP Crushalot😞
tomverve
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10/21/2005  11:39 AM
On the other hand, San Antonio is 1-5 so far in the preseason, so they ain't exactly bringing it full force. This is also not the first time Lampe has put up nice numbers in an NBA-type game. So, big whoop. Let's see him do it for a string of games before we get excited. And to suggest that Lampe is a better rebounder than anyone we have because he pulled down more rebounds in a single preseason game is just ludicrous on so many levels I don't know where to start.

1) It's preseason. NBA comp yes, but not the real stiff kind. Say it with me, preseason.
2) Sample size much? Tony Delk once scored 50 in a game, does that mean that Tony Delk is a better scorer than anyone we have on our team?
3) Rebounds in a game is a really poor measure to use to compare rebounders, since the stat is sensitive to minutes played, the pace at which the game is played, and how many missed shots are available to be rebounded. There are tons of confounding factors there.
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fishmike
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10/21/2005  11:43 AM
well it certainly looks good on paper, and I'm pretty happy with how things have gone but he's not there yet. Almost every move (including Brown) has serious downside. The whole Isiah era hangs on this year IMO. If these rookies arent good, if LB has a meltdown or health problems, if Marbury/Crawford chuck and Curry forgets to play on both ends things will get very hot in the kitchen.

I want to say none of those things will happen, because its the last thing in the world I want to see. Ive had enough BS with this team, I'm ready to see things turnaround. I hope they do
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tomverve
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10/21/2005  11:46 AM
I don't know if it's fair to say the Isiah era hangs on this one season. There's plenty of good reason to think both (1) there is a good thing happening here, and (2) it's going to take a while to come together. But you agree with me on this fish, which is why I find your take here a bit puzzling. This year is not about end results so much as it is about building a foundation for coming seasons.
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BRIGGS
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10/21/2005  11:47 AM
Posted by tomverve:

On the other hand, San Antonio is 1-5 so far in the preseason, so they ain't exactly bringing it full force. This is also not the first time Lampe has put up nice numbers in an NBA-type game. So, big whoop. Let's see him do it for a string of games before we get excited. And to suggest that Lampe is a better rebounder than anyone we have because he pulled down more rebounds in a single preseason game is just ludicrous on so many levels I don't know where to start.

1) It's preseason. NBA comp yes, but not the real stiff kind. Say it with me, preseason.
2) Sample size much? Tony Delk once scored 50 in a game, does that mean that Tony Delk is a better scorer than anyone we have on our team?
3) Rebounds in a game is a really poor measure to use to compare rebounders, since the stat is sensitive to minutes played, the pace at which the game is played, and how many missed shots are available to be rebounded. There are tons of confounding factors there.


blah blah blah

23-12-2 1st game with extended minutes against the spurs--of course he has to show it more than 1nce, but that once shows tremendous promise at his age and size. and that is a big point SIZE--because hes 7 feet, and he put it up in each category pts, reb, blocks, they must be very happy in nO and looking forward to the next game--time to put PJ brown to pasteur anyway
RIP Crushalot😞
tomverve
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10/21/2005  11:49 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

blah blah blah


Sorry, I'll try to dumb down my posts in the future to the point where I can find no issue with any questionable statements you might make.
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Nalod
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10/21/2005  12:00 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Looking back and imagining what could have been done is a bad way to assess GMing, because there's so much uncertainty that even the best GM is going to do a suboptimal job in hindsight sooner or later. It's kind of like in the draft, when a team gets slammed for making a pick when it turns out a guy who got picked a bit later wound up being better. There's just lots of guesswork and estimations involved, nothing is an exact science here. The important thing isn't necessarily that you get the best guy available at your pick (because even the best evaluators can't predict everything perfectly), but just that you get a guy who becomes a solid contributor to your team, roughly commensurate with where in the draft you're selecting.

Likewise for our overall team situation. Has Isiah made the best available acquisitions at every step of the way? Probably not, but no one does. That's an unrealistic standard to hold a GM to. The better question to ask is has Isiah improved the team significantly given what he had to work with, and the answer there is a clear yes. Think of it this way, if you're trading on the stock market and you get a 500% return on your investments over a couple of years, are you happy with where you are or are you kicking yourself because, looking back, you could have turned 700% profit? You should be happy with yourself because you did damn well, and besdies, there's no way to have known for sure the way to make a perfect move each time to get 700% return, unless you have a time machine.

I made a similar point a few days back, but you did a much better job of it. I agree you must look at the body of work and realize all gm's will make mistakes on the road to construction of a better team. I do equity portfolio management and we take our lumps form time to time. But we work off a disciplined and methodical process that OVER time has proven itself. That prevents us from making moves with our emotions. The commitment to youth in both assets, and developing those assets with proper leadership is what excites me about this team.

While Lampe could have been kept, the complexity of "What ifs" are too numerous to project.

Regret is a part of the process. Look at the world series, we got 3 ex yankee starters all pitching! Think we could use them this year? There were reasons at the time some decisions are made.

Lampe was still few years away and at the time, Isiah was not thinking of rebuilding with youth. He was doing the retread thing.

Maybe now it would be nice to have Lampe on the team given our current make up. But I am happy with David Lee and Frye.




fishmike
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10/21/2005  12:00 PM
Posted by tomverve:

I don't know if it's fair to say the Isiah era hangs on this one season. There's plenty of good reason to think both (1) there is a good thing happening here, and (2) it's going to take a while to come together. But you agree with me on this fish, which is why I find your take here a bit puzzling. This year is not about end results so much as it is about building a foundation for coming seasons.
dont assume by end results I'm thinking wins and losses. I have said a couple times a 37 win season that establishes Nate/Frye/Ariza/Lee as core players who have really grown throughout the year, along with getting guys like Curry, Crawford, Q, Marbury playing closer to a LB is a HUGE success IMO. I have said I think it will take time for these guys to grow, develop, play a style etc.

If we see that happen the season is a success regardless of wins IMO. If it ends with LB getting frustrated, playing the vets heavily and lobbying to get some of the young talent traded for Kenny Thomas and Eric Snow its ugly.

I looks like the start of something good but looks can change quickly


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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10/21/2005  12:12 PM
ooooow, scarey, very very scarey!
Killa4luv
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10/21/2005  12:28 PM
One preseason game doesn't make me want Lampe back. I'm happy with Steph, and I'm happy with our team, I can't cry over a scrub who LB probably wouldn't have played anyway.
daddynel
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10/21/2005  5:15 PM
Posted by CrashDMB237:

That was on purpose? Oh... I didn't really think it was funny enough to be a joke, thats why I said that.
you know, not all sarcasm is meant to be histarically funny. sometimes it's actually for brain stimulation. apparantly you could use it.


crzymdups
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10/21/2005  5:27 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Maciej Lampe is still younger than any knick by the way

Ariza is younger than Lampe.


I agree that Lampe will be a fine player, but it's not like the Suns held onto him too tightly either.
¿ △ ?
nyk4ever
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10/21/2005  5:28 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Yeah, imagine if we tanked that season instead of being welcomed to a 4 game sweep by the Nets. We would have had a high draft pick that year, we would have kept the second pick that we owe them and we would have much more cap flexibility without Marbury and Penny.

Still talking about tanking the season? For the last time, I'll say it LOUD AND CLEAR. Jim Dolan will NEVER, I repeat NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tank a season. He makes way too much money off the tickets to the Knicks game and the Knicks to Dolan is a business, NOT a toy like Cuban views it as.


"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
MX25
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10/21/2005  6:38 PM
Some of you guys are Hypocrites. When a non knick player who is young does well you shrug it off as only preseason and he needs to do it more but if frye went 23 and 12. Mostly EVERYONE on here would be voting him for MVP. Or if Nate or Lee had huge game.

Let's get some consistency here.
check out this boxscore--tell me if you see something scary

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