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2 things I noticed in both games on tv....
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Allanfan20
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10/19/2005  1:02 PM
It's not even that though. I don't wanna see the guy end up taking time from Jackie Butler. Butler is earning some minutes man.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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tomverve
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10/19/2005  1:06 PM
Boring preseason talk. Allanfan, how many times have you seen Jerome James play on this Knicks squad with these teammates and Larry Brown coaching? For that matter, how many times have you seen Jerome James play at all? What was your opinion of Jackie Butler before you got to see him play a few minutes in two preseason games? Did your opinion change much from watching those two measly preseason games? Do you think there's a possibility your opinion of James might change if you get to actually watch him play a few minutes?
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tkf
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10/19/2005  1:09 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Boring preseason talk. Allanfan, how many times have you seen Jerome James play on this Knicks squad with these teammates and Larry Brown coaching? For that matter, how many times have you seen Jerome James play at all? What was your opinion of Jackie Butler before you got to see him play a few minutes in two preseason games? Did your opinion change much from watching those two measly preseason games? Do you think there's a possibility your opinion of James might change if you get to actually watch him play a few minutes?


excellent post..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Allanfan20
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10/19/2005  1:12 PM
I've seen James play a million times on Seattle. He has some skills, but he's a terrible rebounder, he gets a million fouls a game, he always fat, he's always injured, and I think a big reason he gets a block or 2 a game is b/c teams will attack him so much knowing he'll foul. Wouldn't that be your game plan when he's in? He can clog the lane, but that alone only takes you so far if you're a bad rebounder and can't even stay on the court. In terms of his shot blocking, he doesn't intimidate opposing teams. He doesn't force teams to change their game plan, and that's what a real shot blocker will do, like Camby, Wallace, Shaq, Dalembert, Yao. So what was the point in getting him and paying him so much if he's gonna play 15 mpg especially if the rookies are outplaying him (EVEN IF HE'S INJURED!)
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
tomverve
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10/19/2005  1:16 PM
Well we'll see soon, won't we? I'm not necessarily saying that your judgment won't end up being spot on, just that it's premature. The votes aren't in yet. I'm gonna wait to see how he plays for this club before coming to a judgment on him, let alone fretting about how he'll be taking away minutes from Jackie Butler. Come on, let's be reasonable here.
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Allanfan20
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10/19/2005  1:19 PM
Jackie Butler:

No star, but could be solid anyway. What I saw from him the past 2 games was a freaking workhorse who gets in position, grabs boards, plays solid man to man D and overall D, has a soft touch and you can go to him every now and then b/c not only can he hit it, but he'll kick it out and in a game in which the refs called everything last night, Jackie seemed to be holding his own in terms of that. Curry sat down after about 2 minutes last night. James woulda been out in 30 seconds.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Pharzeone
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10/19/2005  1:20 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I've seen James play a million times on Seattle. He has some skills, but he's a terrible rebounder, he gets a million fouls a game, he always fat, he's always injured, and I think a big reason he gets a block or 2 a game is b/c teams will attack him so much knowing he'll foul. Wouldn't that be your game plan when he's in? He can clog the lane, but that alone only takes you so far if you're a bad rebounder and can't even stay on the court. In terms of his shot blocking, he doesn't intimidate opposing teams. He doesn't force teams to change their game plan, and that's what a real shot blocker will do, like Camby, Wallace, Shaq, Dalembert, Yao. So what was the point in getting him and paying him so much if he's gonna play 15 mpg especially if the rookies are outplaying him (EVEN IF HE'S INJURED!)

Shaq's a shot blocker? JJ has issues with his weight. Put down the cheeseburger JJ and take a deep breath.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bonn1997
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10/19/2005  1:25 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by tomverve:

Boring preseason talk. Allanfan, how many times have you seen Jerome James play on this Knicks squad with these teammates and Larry Brown coaching? For that matter, how many times have you seen Jerome James play at all? What was your opinion of Jackie Butler before you got to see him play a few minutes in two preseason games? Did your opinion change much from watching those two measly preseason games? Do you think there's a possibility your opinion of James might change if you get to actually watch him play a few minutes?


excellent post..
Well put; this is crazy preseason talk. Who cares anyway if Dolan's paying JJ $3 mil per above his value (if we accept allanfan's $2 mil market value claim). He paid Allan Houston 20 mil per above his value for several years. Rose is paid about 7 mil more than his market value. So was JYD last year. I've seen some people care so much about a much smaller amount of overpaying and so little about huge overapying.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 10-19-2005 1:29 PM]
Pharzeone
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10/19/2005  1:25 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Jackie Butler:

No star, but could be solid anyway. What I saw from him the past 2 games was a freaking workhorse who gets in position, grabs boards, plays solid man to man D and overall D, has a soft touch and you can go to him every now and then b/c not only can he hit it, but he'll kick it out and in a game in which the refs called everything last night, Jackie seemed to be holding his own in terms of that. Curry sat down after about 2 minutes last night. James woulda been out in 30 seconds.
Isn't Jackie still like only the 2 youngest Knick to ever play for them aside from Trevor. You can tell that Aguire has been working with this guy. I like how he sets his feet, gets control of rebounds, boxes out. He is slow but he is solid, he gets left out of the youth equation but I have high hopes for him as well. Both Ariza and Butler were thought to be lottery material if they either stayed in college or went to college, so I am not that surprised.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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10/19/2005  1:34 PM
Tom, what was exorbitant was giving him 5 years. There's nothing wrong with his annual salary. The problem is if he fizzles no team touches him with 4 years left on his deal. Notice that Shandon, Eisley and Spoon were all waived.

As for JJ I expect what we got from Deke. He will play his usuall 55 games or so, average his usual 15-20 minutes but he will also have his usual dozen games or so where his size really impacts the outcome of the game, and thats not a bad thing.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Panos
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10/19/2005  1:38 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Well we'll see soon, won't we? I'm not necessarily saying that your judgment won't end up being spot on, just that it's premature. The votes aren't in yet. I'm gonna wait to see how he plays for this club before coming to a judgment on him, let alone fretting about how he'll be taking away minutes from Jackie Butler. Come on, let's be reasonable here.


What's with the "premature" argument? Why do we even have a forum if we're not allowed to judge players that have BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR 5 YEARS!!! It's not like the guy has never played an NBA game before. Open season on JJ! Load your broadsides, fellas!
fishmike
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10/19/2005  1:41 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Starting off with Trevor Ariza. It looks like he added a little beef to himself, however, the guy plays so out of control sometimes that it's frequently real bad. The guy has to look at what he's doing and not always go at 50 million miles a second.

About Butler though. He's one tough ars son of a gun. Rebounds the ball like a dog, his defense and his passing is actually solid and he has a soft touch. You can actually go to him in the low post sometimes. He and Frye are the perfect compliments to eachother. I would LOOOOOVE to see him get some extended minutes. This kinda thing just makes me a little bit more pissassed about the Jerome James signing. I like Butler more.
oh.. on the original topic. Its funny how for years we have been dying to get youngh and athletic. Now we are young and athletic but cant shoot, and everytime we put the ball on the floor we dribble into 3 guys on the other team with our head down.

Reezy looks good. He's a way from starter material but he continues to improve. It makes it watchable doesnt it? I can live with 37 wins no problem if I'm watching these guys get better. Its worth it. I believe in 3 things now. I believe in the quality of our young talent. I believe in Isiah's ability to draft more, and I believe in Larry Brown's ability to teach. All thats needed now is patience

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
boomann
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10/19/2005  1:44 PM
I heard Larry Brown speaking on NBA.COM and he basically said that Jackie Butler was apart of this draft class with Nate, Lee and Frye since he didn't go to college and this is his first real team. I think Butler is going to be really good in this league soon but until that time James, Davis and Curry should see most of the minutes. He is only 20 and other than Trevor he is the youngest guy on the team. I would like to see him get one more season of seasoning and another summer league before he gets significant time. Because by that time Antonio will have retired and we will need some more girth up front, but Butler will be a good player soon
"We need another shot blocker and we need more girth in the middle, once that happens we have a chance to be a pretty decent team" Isiah on draft night
Allanfan20
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10/19/2005  1:45 PM
Ohh I know and I love Ariza and I'm pretty confident he'll improve his shooting and his overall control, ect...

I'm just saying RIGHT NOW, on most teams, he's not a starter yet, but he'll be there. I have a friend who is a NET FAN and keeps insisting that Trevor is the next Richard Jefferson. I say Prince, but who knows. But either way, you're right. Trevor looks good, but he's got a ways to go. What do you think of Jackie?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
mattshaw78
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10/19/2005  1:46 PM
Jackie Butler is da bomb

BlueSeats "I like anyone who can make Lebron cry. Melo seems to do it a lot."
fishmike
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10/19/2005  1:52 PM
tough to call on JB.
I think he's the best position rebounder of all of them and he's shown some very nifty footwork around the basket. Also he hit a 17 footer the other night with great form. Gotta see more of it. Thats whats good about these preseason games. You can see the coaches are starting different units to get extended looks from them.

Oh.. and on JB making the team, this is from the NYTimes
REBOUNDS

Coach Larry Brown watched last night's game from the stands - while Herb Williams coached the game - but Brown's health is fine, the team said. It is an annual Brown tradition to have his top assistant coach one preseason game in his place. ... Eddy Curry scored 15 points and grabbed 3 rebounds as the Knicks lost, 114-99, to the 76ers. Nate Robinson added 16 points and 6 rebounds. ... Quentin Richardson and Jerome James sat out the game to rest strained hamstrings. ... Forwards Maurice Taylor and Matt Barnes each got his first start of the preseason. Malik Rose and Richardson started the first two games. Barnes was a late addition to the training-camp roster, but with the retirement of Houston he now has a strong chance of making the final roster. The Knicks have 13 guaranteed contracts, with five free agents - Barnes, center Jackie Butler, forward Otis George and guards Steven Barber and Jamison Brewer - competing for two open roster spots.
looks to me like Barnes and JB are both around with H20 gone.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tomverve
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10/19/2005  2:06 PM
Posted by Panos:

What's with the "premature" argument? Why do we even have a forum if we're not allowed to judge players that have BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR 5 YEARS!!! It's not like the guy has never played an NBA game before. Open season on JJ! Load your broadsides, fellas!


It's a little thing called "context." A player who looks terrible in one system, with one coach and one set of teammates, can look quite good in another system with a different coach and teammates. The book isn't closed on James yet, hell, it hasn't even been opened. He could be a slouch, sure, but he also could be a really important part of this team. Let's wait and see.
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fishmike
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10/19/2005  2:36 PM
well, we knows he's a slouch. Cant blame the system for him showing up fat and out of shape every year. Hopefully we can get more out of his skills than his previous employers
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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10/19/2005  8:27 PM
Tom, what was exorbitant was giving him 5 years.
Then there is *NOTHING* to worry about. It's hard not to realize that if it doesn't work out with James, he'll be bought out after about 2 years. Isiah has no problem doing that with players obviously who aren't working.
martin
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10/19/2005  8:32 PM
Here's the one thing about the James signing... WHEN (not IF) the Knicks make another big splash trade, James will probably be included. Everything being equal, big men are a premium. If James can give 10 solid minutes a night, he'll be worth something.
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