so who do you blame more? Clinton's admin for not being proactive enough, or say the Reagan admin who actually sold arms to Iran, and armed and trained the Taliban, a known Muslim terrorist organization simply because it helped keep the USSR out of Afghan territories. How about Bush Sr's job of leaving a colossal evil-doer like Saddam in power for another 10 years? So he could amass the WOMD and bio weapons the red states actually still believe exist. As for GW hows the war in Iraq going? Hows the hunt for Osama coming along? I remember his great speech on the rubble of the twin towers "I hear you and the people that did this will hear you also." I wonder if they can hear from their houses in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and wherever else they may have ran off to while we were pursuing the REAL threat which was... oh yea, Iraq/Saddam.

Ajar indeed.

In 1999 Clinton got a memo from the CIA that there was going to be a terrorist attack in LAX and called a meeting right away of the FBI, CIA and the LAPD and they stopped a bomber from boarding a plane. When G W Bush got a memo Osama Bin Ladin was going to attack NYC with a terrorist attack involving planes, he went fishing.

You cant even begin to compare the two. CLinton got his knob rubbed, G W Bush is going to be remembered as the idiot who brought down the American Empire. In history books, Bush will be looked at as one of the worst, evil leaders in human history. Most of the world already sees him as a Hitler or a Stalin. Go travel and see if thats true. But you wont travel or really find out what people think or know. Youre just concerned about being a sheep waiting to be led to your slaughter.

Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:

Posted by fishmike:

Bush is a great president and a great leader. When its said and done his 8 years will speak for itself.

Fishmike, although I think I know how you meant this, it actually is true, at least the end part. ANY Presidency is judged after the fact. So far, we know Clinton did nothing to curb terrorism. How about those documents Berger stufed in his pants and got his hands slapped for??!!

I know....the door is ajar.

What bothers me is when people make it seem as bush is the reason why other countries hate us? These same nations hated us long before, they hate our style of living, they hate our prosperity and everything it brings us. I am by no means trying to support bush, I just hate the seperate , personal political agendas in which people, the media, politicians, will lie and mislead the public to bring another down.... The disaster in NO gave people the vehicle to do that to bush and it is sad as hell, pretending to care about those people when in reality their sole desire is to make bush look bad.... that is disgusting... "LOOK AT ALL THE DEAD KIDS FLOATING IN THE RIVER, WHERE WAS BUSH, ON VACATION, THOUSANDS ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THIS FOOL"...... Tell me this doesn't disgust you, the sensationalism and lies combined can form a terrible disservice to the american public...

TFK, in the last 5 years I have worked for 2 international banks, SG and HSBC (currently). The anti-Bush sentiment is overwhelming on a pretty broad scale. Say what you want about Clinton but he was a highly respected diplomat. Bush isn't. The thought is americans are stupid for voting him, he's an idiot that cant give a speech or debate without screwing up his lines and he's out for himself and the wealthy americans that funded his campaign (whom he has generously awarded). I have not heard from a single noncitizen that doesn't knock this guy and knock us as a people for electing him.

Clinton was at the Helm at the most prosperous time in our country's entire history.
Bush has seen 2 Catastrophes and 2 Wars...

Bush gets Kudos for Afghanistan (After that War I was a strong Bush supoprter)
Although.. his aids were asking for us to retaliate against Iraq (Especially the one now in charge of the World Bank)..

Bush fumbled 911 at first when he kept reading to those kids... But he ultimately stepped up and seemed to have united the country behind him... The whole coutnry was in an ultra-nationalistic sentiment.. and as we moved foward.. we felt united and Proud of being Americans.

Then Bush Bungled the whole Iraq conflict by pre-emptively going to war on a false pre-tense. Only to later claim is to to liberate the Iraqi people... Who by some estimates have close to 100,000 civilian casualties since we invaded.

Then Bush appointed his Saudi Racehorse buddy to head up FEMA...
The whole response to Katrina was bungled as a result.

Tax cuts for the wealthiest in this country.

Opening up our National parks to the Lumber industry...
Opening up the Wetlands to industry.
And a series of other environemental blunders...

North Korea has Nukes.
Iran is on it's way to Nukes...
China is as powerful as ever and has been expanding their military moreso than any other country on the planet for the last 4 years... (Taiwan invasion seems immenent)

In doing it alone against Iraq he has isolated the entire European Union... Hence his trouble getting them on board trying to control Iran's Nuclear ambitions.

He has done some good things.. but overal... George Bush has been a bad president...
He will leave the country weaker then when he took it over...

The best damage control would be for Bush to resign. Now that he is taking the blame, he should be held accountable, just like Michael Brown was.

For Bush, it would be a long time coming.

Posted by tkf:

Posted by fishmike:

TFK, in the last 5 years I have worked for 2 international banks, SG and HSBC (currently). The anti-Bush sentiment is overwhelming on a pretty broad scale. Say what you want about Clinton but he was a highly respected diplomat. Bush isn't. The thought is americans are stupid for voting him, he's an idiot that cant give a speech or debate without screwing up his lines and he's out for himself and the wealthy americans that funded his campaign (whom he has generously awarded). I have not heard from a single noncitizen that doesn't knock this guy and knock us as a people for electing him.

I actually like Clinton a lot more than bush, that is not my issue, the problem is that there are major holes in the whole system, to categorically blame bush for everything that went wrong with Katrina and to use the race card is ridiculous. Thats all.

Bush is the president, so him taking the blame when the federal gov't dropped the ball is a no-brainer. As far as the "race card" stuff, it's legitimate. Why is it so ridiculous that race is an issue here? I guess to some, racism and it's savage history in this country is just something someone made up. The ones who try to avoid those issues the most are usually those who have the most deep-seated prejudices, especially when it comes to Black people. Anyone NOT seeing this is what's ridiculous.

Now bush is taking blame, it is a good PR move for him since people are going to blame him anyway.

Why isn't it about the truth, moreso than PR? TKF, you're already trying to spin it, huh?

Actually I can't wait until he leaves office, americans were stupid to put him in office, but we are also stupid for not holding our local officials to higher standards, to turning our shoulders to local govts and their irresponsibleness, when that happens we have a total breakdown and crap that happened in NO occur.

Let's not be so quick to forget Iraq, when mentioning G.W.'s great presidential achievements.
Also, had those states not had their NG and other resources shipped off to Iraq for that pitiful farce of a "war", maybe they would have been better aboe to provide the kind of help that they were requesting from the fed. gov't days before the hurricane hit N.O.

I just don't like to see the finger pointing to one man, when the previous administration had holes also, yea maybe less holes, but holes nevertheless that contributed to the mess we are in now, weither it was not confronting terroism head on earlier, to sealing the borders to fixing the levies.. It stinks and has stunk from before bush....

Bringing up Clinton is the usual weak attempt to get off the topic. This has NOTHING to do with Clinton. It's Bush and his admin that should and shall be held accountable. This is now, and Bush cut the budget that would have saved lives, only to finance his latest neo-imperialistic endeavor, the Iraq "war".

TKF, do you check any news sources besides Fox News? Their "unfair and unbalanced" biased views are meant to dumb down the public. There are many sources that quite easily shut the gate down on most of Fox News "stances" on a regular basis. Fox News has more holes in their arguments than Swiss cheese.







[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 09-13-2005 1:49 PM]

Posted by fishmike:

TFK, then I wrongly lumped you in with Knight and GoNy who seem far more concerned with Bush looking bad or Dems being right than the facts. While I didnt agree with Reagan or Bush Sr. politics I could understand how and why they were elected and certainly hoped they would do well. I just dont understand GW, and how or why people wanted this guy in office. Maybe Kerry was that bad. Hopefully they get it right next time because Chaney isnt much better (at least he can complete a sentance). At least it will be interesting to see how the gay daughter thing plays out if he does run

fish, I am not one of these big right wind supporters, If you look at Hardcore's post above, this is the big problem I see today.. If bush takes the blame, that is not good enough, If bush isn't a racist then we are spinning and ignoring race, Saying all the NG is in Iraq is not true, and the list goes on and on. It is sensationalism at its best, yet I am accused of spinning. To men when I read post and reactions like Hardcore it is easy to see through it. I see a person who hates bush, is unwilling to acknowledge the past failures of previous administrations, but will only focus on bush because it supports his hate for him and his administration.. That is real easy to see. This is why I like guys like Bill O'reilly, not because I think he supports the right, I don't care, I don't spend my days following politics, I am sports guy, but I do keep in touch with whats going on in the world, and I want someone who will at least tell the truth and give me the facts, not sensationalism, not personal agendas. Now you may feel different, but I didn't see O'reilly on TV screaming about 10,000 people dead while bush was fishing, which was misleading. I didn't see O'reilly calling bush a racist or that he didn't care about blacks when during his administration, he has supported programs to support the poor moreso percentage wise than the previous administration. Look it up, the earned income credit refunds, veterans benefits, child nourishment programs etc... All had increases while bush was in office, but instead of being fair to the story these bush bashers will twist the story and shout and hollar all day to make bush look bad, regardless of how much they are wrong...
When bush is gone, I think that will be a good thing, but man I get sick of the irresponsible finger pointing, misleading diatribes, and personal agendas.. And I don't need fox news to see that!!!

It's a lot of stuff about Bush and Co. But I don't think any other administration will do better.
Dems or Reps, or whatever it is. This country is based on pure interest - everything that is profitable will be done. Other stuff... well... Who cares.
The government is just reflection of what we are and what we care about. By kicking the Bush e..h we kicking ourselfs.
It's a lot of crap about patriotism, helping fellow citizens, etc. There are a lot of people who do help with money and with their own hands. But like a country, collectively we are mostly ignorant and this reflects in what officials on all level do.
We will have better government only if most of us will start thinking about things like Iraq, Global warming, poverty, go to elections and vote for people who care, not for people who are just “nice” and promised more money in tax deductions...