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is it fair to say this about the marbury trade
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djsunyc
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8/31/2005  9:57 AM
Posted by fishmike:

I still fail to see how Marbury is the problem. He's not perfect but he's damn good. He creates, scores in bunches and plays hard. He's not clutch, but he's not KVH either. I would say he's OK late in games. I think his problem there is he's tired from playing 100 minutes. He plays hard every night. He talented and playing at a hig level. His attitude problems are overrated IMO. Think Isiah has put this team into a win now mode and Marbury is really the only guy ready to play at that kind of level. In hindsight I think we overpayed, but I'm not upset about anything we gave up.

The only reason(s) trading Marbury makes sense to me is if it bought us max type cap space in the following offseason, we were so bad and trading Marbury could net us picks and young players to honestly rebuild with or Nate or Crawford explode and Marbury can get us a bigtime frontcourt player.

Otherwise he's the guy Isiah picked to be the face of this franchise for the next couple years, so we have to ride it out. Hard to ask more of him than what he game last year.


i agree, marbury is not part of the problem.
but bringing him in DID put $18-20 mil more on the cap for a few years after h20.

so the move increased payroll. i guess the question posed is whether or not going after that max player at the time was worth it if it doesn't work out with LB.
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TMS
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8/31/2005  10:05 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

if steph doesn't show leadership or step up his play (not #'s wise but teamwise) with LB this season, would it be fair to call the trade for him a bust?

if Lampe & Milos had turned out to be good players in this league, then maybe it might be fair to judge the trade as a bust under those circumstances you just described...but IMHO, 2 busted picks, Howard Eisley, & some ending contracts of players that weren't contributing much of anything for a star PG who draws fans to the games & brought excitement back to MSG is a trade i'd make all over again w/o thinking twice about it...that's 1 trade i gave Isiah props for from the very beginning.
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fishmike
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8/31/2005  10:33 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

i agree, marbury is not part of the problem.
but bringing him in DID put $18-20 mil more on the cap for a few years after h20.

so the move increased payroll. i guess the question posed is whether or not going after that max player at the time was worth it if it doesn't work out with LB.
doesnt bother me a bit. Some think I care that the Knicks have this crazy payroll. I dont, what I care about is how its spent and how that hurts us. I would be thrilled off my rocker if the Knicks $120mm payroll was full of guy that play up to Marbury's caliber. Essentially thats that the Mavs had. Dirk, Finely, Jamison, Walker, Van Ex, Raef, Dampier, Stackhouse... there's a couple lemons in there, and they have done a good job of building young talent as well, but at least their bloated payroll was loaded with high caliber guys that other teams wanted. They have 1 or 2 lemons. We have 6.
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Rich
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8/31/2005  12:15 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by djsunyc:

i agree, marbury is not part of the problem.
but bringing him in DID put $18-20 mil more on the cap for a few years after h20.

so the move increased payroll. i guess the question posed is whether or not going after that max player at the time was worth it if it doesn't work out with LB.
doesnt bother me a bit. Some think I care that the Knicks have this crazy payroll. I dont, what I care about is how its spent and how that hurts us. I would be thrilled off my rocker if the Knicks $120mm payroll was full of guy that play up to Marbury's caliber. Essentially thats that the Mavs had. Dirk, Finely, Jamison, Walker, Van Ex, Raef, Dampier, Stackhouse... there's a couple lemons in there, and they have done a good job of building young talent as well, but at least their bloated payroll was loaded with high caliber guys that other teams wanted. They have 1 or 2 lemons. We have 6.

Except that if Isiah would have taken the long view when he arrived, and not have traded for Marbury's bloated contract, he could have put a plan in place to get under the cap (when Houston's contract expires) and to pursue FA, which until he demonstrates otherwise, would have likely given the Knicks a better chance to get the dominant big man any team needs to truly contend for championships.
fishmike
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8/31/2005  12:28 PM
Rich he could still have done that, but Rose and JJ killed it. If not for those 2 we would have been just around the cap for 07. That would give us the option to dump Marbury for any expiring deal and have about $15-$18mm in cap space to work with. I think thats very feasible.
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martin
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8/31/2005  12:29 PM
Posted by Rich:

Except that if Isiah would have taken the long view when he arrived, and not have traded for Marbury's bloated contract, he could have put a plan in place to get under the cap (when Houston's contract expires) and to pursue FA, which until he demonstrates otherwise, would have likely given the Knicks a better chance to get the dominant big man any team needs to truly contend for championships.

only thing you can say after that is... what big man is out there? And we still would have had to wait until after Houston came off the books, right?

Trade for Marb and be over the cap or be crappy until Houston comes off the books and try to sign a big man like Chicago did and come away empty? Both routes have risks, but I say if you can trade for a solid all-star, you do it.
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Rich
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8/31/2005  12:36 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Rich:

Except that if Isiah would have taken the long view when he arrived, and not have traded for Marbury's bloated contract, he could have put a plan in place to get under the cap (when Houston's contract expires) and to pursue FA, which until he demonstrates otherwise, would have likely given the Knicks a better chance to get the dominant big man any team needs to truly contend for championships.

only thing you can say after that is... what big man is out there? And we still would have had to wait until after Houston came off the books, right?

Trade for Marb and be over the cap or be crappy until Houston comes off the books and try to sign a big man like Chicago did and come away empty? Both routes have risks, but I say if you can trade for a solid all-star, you do it.

I can't say that I can identify a particular big man, but perhaps if it was known that the Knicks would be having cap room on a date certain in the near future, some prospective FAs wouldn't re-sign with their team. NY proved to be an attractive venue for FAs in 1996, the last time the Knicks had cap room.
Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  12:37 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by djsunyc:

i agree, marbury is not part of the problem.
but bringing him in DID put $18-20 mil more on the cap for a few years after h20.

so the move increased payroll. i guess the question posed is whether or not going after that max player at the time was worth it if it doesn't work out with LB.
doesnt bother me a bit. Some think I care that the Knicks have this crazy payroll. I dont, what I care about is how its spent and how that hurts us. I would be thrilled off my rocker if the Knicks $120mm payroll was full of guy that play up to Marbury's caliber. Essentially thats that the Mavs had. Dirk, Finely, Jamison, Walker, Van Ex, Raef, Dampier, Stackhouse... there's a couple lemons in there, and they have done a good job of building young talent as well, but at least their bloated payroll was loaded with high caliber guys that other teams wanted. They have 1 or 2 lemons. We have 6.

Except that if Isiah would have taken the long view when he arrived, and not have traded for Marbury's bloated contract, he could have put a plan in place to get under the cap (when Houston's contract expires) and to pursue FA, which until he demonstrates otherwise, would have likely given the Knicks a better chance to get the dominant big man any team needs to truly contend for championships.
About this magical cap space: What FA's did teams acquire this year with cap space that were so fantastic? There are some good players like Larry Hughes, Shareef, but none worth changing your entire rebuilding plan around. How about last year? I can't think of any superstars than either. It's simple: 90+% of the time superstars (a) re-sign with their original teams for more money than a different team under the cap would have been able to offer; or (b) sign extensions again for more money with their teams before their contract expires; or (c) are traded (sometimes in sign-and-trades). Getting under the cap to sign another team's superstar is probably the very least likely way to get one. No, it's not impossible. Once or twice a decade it does happen. It's just the least likely way to get a superstar.




[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-31-2005 12:37 PM]
martin
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8/31/2005  12:42 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Rich he could still have done that, but Rose and JJ killed it. If not for those 2 we would have been just around the cap for 07. That would give us the option to dump Marbury for any expiring deal and have about $15-$18mm in cap space to work with. I think thats very feasible.


I'd like to see some stats or research into the movement of all-star type talent. Trades vs free agent movement. By which route do all-stars move from teams to teams?

If I am the GM of NY I would have to think hard about IF my organization/season ticket holders/fan would really allow me to rebuild through the draft and by getting under the cap. My GUESS is that the answer is NO. Peer pressure, fiscal pressure, media scrutiny. There is just too much money that pours in from sponsors, tickets, jerseys, etc that it would be too much to take a dive for more than 2 years, and that really doesn't allow for "cap gaining".

To make a trade for all-star talent you have to be able to give up some goods. Talent, bigs, expiring contracts, reasonable contracts. Call it the Shaq trade equivalency - Miami needed to give up some to get an all-star, and so would NY. Didn't we trade for Nazr in part to make him better and trade him? Can't that be the same for Big Game? If we trade for an all-star big we surely have to be able to give up some halfway solid bigs in return, whether it be JJ or Frye or both. Think of the signing in terms of that angle, and the JJ pursuit is not that bad.

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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/31/2005  12:56 PM
LOL seems like some of us long for those "we need a Point Guard" days again. NOT.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
fishmike
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8/31/2005  1:07 PM
Martin, the thing is we were in a real position to hedge our bet so to speak. Just dont take on more future contracts past 07. You still have Q, Craw, Nate, Frye, Ariza, Sweets, Mo T, Penny, TT, Houston, Nazr and Marbury. You also have options. Your not clearing cap space in hope of getting a FA star like the Bulls did and the Hawks have done. Your just giving yourself the option. It gives you a choice and a good one. If Nate or Crawford become a star PG, which both have potential to be, it allows you to dump Marbury at the deadline and go into the offseason with max level cap space to sign ad FA or orchestrate a trade where you can take back a max player because you have space. Thats a GREAT option to have. Isnt the whole point of adding young players to give yourselve to option to build something around them?

Your still fielding a team with exciting players and veterans as well. We won 33 games last year.
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Rich
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8/31/2005  1:23 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by djsunyc:

i agree, marbury is not part of the problem.
but bringing him in DID put $18-20 mil more on the cap for a few years after h20.

so the move increased payroll. i guess the question posed is whether or not going after that max player at the time was worth it if it doesn't work out with LB.
doesnt bother me a bit. Some think I care that the Knicks have this crazy payroll. I dont, what I care about is how its spent and how that hurts us. I would be thrilled off my rocker if the Knicks $120mm payroll was full of guy that play up to Marbury's caliber. Essentially thats that the Mavs had. Dirk, Finely, Jamison, Walker, Van Ex, Raef, Dampier, Stackhouse... there's a couple lemons in there, and they have done a good job of building young talent as well, but at least their bloated payroll was loaded with high caliber guys that other teams wanted. They have 1 or 2 lemons. We have 6.

Except that if Isiah would have taken the long view when he arrived, and not have traded for Marbury's bloated contract, he could have put a plan in place to get under the cap (when Houston's contract expires) and to pursue FA, which until he demonstrates otherwise, would have likely given the Knicks a better chance to get the dominant big man any team needs to truly contend for championships.
About this magical cap space: What FA's did teams acquire this year with cap space that were so fantastic? There are some good players like Larry Hughes, Shareef, but none worth changing your entire rebuilding plan around. How about last year? I can't think of any superstars than either. It's simple: 90+% of the time superstars (a) re-sign with their original teams for more money than a different team under the cap would have been able to offer; or (b) sign extensions again for more money with their teams before their contract expires; or (c) are traded (sometimes in sign-and-trades). Getting under the cap to sign another team's superstar is probably the very least likely way to get one. No, it's not impossible. Once or twice a decade it does happen. It's just the least likely way to get a superstar.




[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-31-2005 12:37 PM]

That the FA class in any given year is weak, or that some teams can't attract FAs, does not ipso facto mean that there won't be attractive FAs in another year, or that players wouldn't take steps to come to NY if they knew the Knicks were scheduled to have cap room.

For example, LeBron is still scheduled to become a FA in, iirc, '07. The Knicks should be looking for ways to have sufficient room under the cap to be able to sign him. It's hard to believe that a star of his magnitude wouldn't want the opportunity to reap the benefits that being a superstar in NYC offers (see Jeter, Derek).

Fair point, Mike.
Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  2:00 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by djsunyc:

i agree, marbury is not part of the problem.
but bringing him in DID put $18-20 mil more on the cap for a few years after h20.

so the move increased payroll. i guess the question posed is whether or not going after that max player at the time was worth it if it doesn't work out with LB.
doesnt bother me a bit. Some think I care that the Knicks have this crazy payroll. I dont, what I care about is how its spent and how that hurts us. I would be thrilled off my rocker if the Knicks $120mm payroll was full of guy that play up to Marbury's caliber. Essentially thats that the Mavs had. Dirk, Finely, Jamison, Walker, Van Ex, Raef, Dampier, Stackhouse... there's a couple lemons in there, and they have done a good job of building young talent as well, but at least their bloated payroll was loaded with high caliber guys that other teams wanted. They have 1 or 2 lemons. We have 6.

Except that if Isiah would have taken the long view when he arrived, and not have traded for Marbury's bloated contract, he could have put a plan in place to get under the cap (when Houston's contract expires) and to pursue FA, which until he demonstrates otherwise, would have likely given the Knicks a better chance to get the dominant big man any team needs to truly contend for championships.
About this magical cap space: What FA's did teams acquire this year with cap space that were so fantastic? There are some good players like Larry Hughes, Shareef, but none worth changing your entire rebuilding plan around. How about last year? I can't think of any superstars than either. It's simple: 90+% of the time superstars (a) re-sign with their original teams for more money than a different team under the cap would have been able to offer; or (b) sign extensions again for more money with their teams before their contract expires; or (c) are traded (sometimes in sign-and-trades). Getting under the cap to sign another team's superstar is probably the very least likely way to get one. No, it's not impossible. Once or twice a decade it does happen. It's just the least likely way to get a superstar.




[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-31-2005 12:37 PM]

That the FA class in any given year is weak, or that some teams can't attract FAs, does not ipso facto mean that there won't be attractive FAs in another year, or that players wouldn't take steps to come to NY if they knew the Knicks were scheduled to have cap room.

For example, LeBron is still scheduled to become a FA in, iirc, '07. The Knicks should be looking for ways to have sufficient room under the cap to be able to sign him. It's hard to believe that a star of his magnitude wouldn't want the opportunity to reap the benefits that being a superstar in NYC offers (see Jeter, Derek).

Fair point, Mike.
The only point is that if history is any example, the least likely way to acquire Lebron or any superstar would be by signing him as an FA. That's almost never how you get superstars. I agree Lebron is one of many players the Knicks should be targetting. They just shouldn't rely solely on the least likely way to get him.

That the FA class in any given year is weak
Okay; let's not focus on any one year. Over the past ten years, how many teams have used cap space to get FAs that are stars worth building around? I think you'll see that it happens about only once or twice a decade.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-31-2005 2:00 PM]
Rich
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8/31/2005  2:22 PM
Bonn,

It's not that signing free agents alone can necessarily propel a team to the top, but it's an avenue that shouldn't be foreclosed.

The Lakers signed Shaq; the Wizards signed Arenas; the Nuggets signed Miller; the Heat signed Odom; the Jazz signed Boozer; Cleveland has now signed Redd.

These players are important assets, whether they remain with a team or are used in a trade for another player.

My only point is that when a team trades for an overpriced player like Marbury, it is tougher to utitlize the free agency option.

Again, NY has unique advantages that could persuade prosepctive FAs to alter their decision making process.
fishmike
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8/31/2005  2:31 PM
The Lakers signed Shaq; the Wizards signed Arenas; the Nuggets signed Miller; the Heat signed Odom; the Jazz signed Boozer; Cleveland has now signed Redd.
Add KMart, Bobby Simmons, Steve Nash (MVP), Q, Joe Johnson... how far back do you want to go? Rich, great points. Some of these guys are totally incapable of thinking outside the box and understanding that more options = more options. Image what our team would look like right now with KMart as PF, instead of whoever wins that job.

You use the cap, use the exceptions, use low level FAs and use the draft to get better. So far we have used the draft and thats about it. I'm glad we got that right, I really am. Its just not enough IMO.
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djsunyc
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8/31/2005  2:34 PM
OPTIMIZATION of our resources. that's all i ask for.

what's the point of using the nytimes message board when you have the same thing here but with a quicker and nicer interface, right?
rvhoss
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8/31/2005  2:39 PM
Q is now a knick, so it's like we signed him. All the other examples have not really come close to panning out (with the exception of shaq and the lakers), I think you have a better chance of obtaining a quality free agent through a S&T then via straight signing the player.

Which i believe Joe Johnson and Kmart fell under. Nuggets are still signing players and have nothing to show for it but a record as bad as ours last year. The Suns lost every player they signed the following year. Arenas to wizards? They may have a worst record than us THIS year.

Unless you guys are talking UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENTS, you really don't have much of a valid argument, and we'd have to be WAAAAAY under the cap for any of titans.

Then we'd have a sucky team and one superstar.

Atlanta is still wating to win with their signings, as is everybody else.

Truth of the matter, you can only win through the draft and pick up free agents that fill needs (see spurs and pistons), I don't consider sheed the piece that got the pistons the championship, I give LB more credit for that.

I mean, the nuggets got FA's year after year and secured the 8th seed...nice work. If they didn't get the third pick in the draft and get melo, they would have missed the playoffs again.

I need some FA examples where a team UNDER THE CAP picked up a player and was a bonafide contender...well, other than the suns.
and the jury is still out on them because they traded Q to us so it's as if we signed him anyway.
You guys are throwing out every preposterous possiblity and none of your examples pan out...looks like Yao reupped, how soon before bron does to, and there are no free agent stars in this next year.

EDIT:
I wasn't in the mood to fact check and felt like going off the cuff, try not to nit pick words (islesfan) and prepositional phrases (fishy) and try to stick to the gist of the post.

Thanks in advance.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-31-2005 2:42 PM]
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rvhoss
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8/31/2005  2:43 PM
well, for one, we wouldn't have marbury and in order for that to happen all of layden's years of salary acsuisition can't have happened. OH, you mean if we had cap room BEFORE ISIAH took over. OK, then we'd be where the nuggets were, but possibly worst because our team would have SUCKED.
Posted by fishmike:

[quote] Image what our team would look like right now with KMart as PF, instead of whoever wins that job.


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rvhoss
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8/31/2005  2:44 PM
FISH, let me respond for you to my last post:

Fish: Well, our team already sucks.

Cool, thought I'd get that out of the way for you.
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rvhoss
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8/31/2005  2:45 PM
Since the lakers (two collective bargain's and a strike year away) signed shaq, can you name one successfull scenario where a team with cap room made it TO the dance after signing a bonafide Free Agent?

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-31-2005 2:45 PM]
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