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The fate of our team is going to rely hard on how well the frontcourt can stay out of foul trouble..
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djsunyc
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8/23/2005  11:22 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:

the only low post moves he has are waiting for Marbury to create for him or grabbing an offensive rebound and scoring. You CANNOT run a offense through him. You CANNOT throw the ball to him and ask him to CREATE a low post scoring opportunity. That's what good low post scorers can do. Maybe Sweetney will be able to do that some time but he hasn't been able to in his 2 year career

in the words of marv: have you ever watched the guy play?

bonn, i'm saying this for your benefit - bail out of this thread immediately. you're not helping your cause...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08-23-2005 10:00 PM]
LOL! What low post moves does Mike have? Be specific if you can

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-23-2005 10:53 PM]


http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=11032
the video link doesn't work when I went to that thread. But if you're relying on a highlight video rather than watching the games, then your opinion makes a lot of sense now.

this makes no sense. bonn we're talking about sweetney here, not nazr. i think you're getting muslim's and christian's confused. if there's only one good thing you can say about mike, is that he has a POLISHED post up game. like marv said, he just never got the ball enough. don't you remember the game vs. the lakers where he was pretty much ABUSING mihm? and when kmart tried to guard him, all he could do was wrap his arms around him and foul him b/c he was just backing it up at will?
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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8/23/2005  11:42 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:

the only low post moves he has are waiting for Marbury to create for him or grabbing an offensive rebound and scoring. You CANNOT run a offense through him. You CANNOT throw the ball to him and ask him to CREATE a low post scoring opportunity. That's what good low post scorers can do. Maybe Sweetney will be able to do that some time but he hasn't been able to in his 2 year career

in the words of marv: have you ever watched the guy play?

bonn, i'm saying this for your benefit - bail out of this thread immediately. you're not helping your cause...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08-23-2005 10:00 PM]
LOL! What low post moves does Mike have? Be specific if you can

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-23-2005 10:53 PM]


http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=11032
the video link doesn't work when I went to that thread. But if you're relying on a highlight video rather than watching the games, then your opinion makes a lot of sense now.

this makes no sense. bonn we're talking about sweetney here, not nazr. i think you're getting muslim's and christian's confused. if there's only one good thing you can say about mike, is that he has a POLISHED post up game. like marv said, he just never got the ball enough. don't you remember the game vs. the lakers where he was pretty much ABUSING mihm? and when kmart tried to guard him, all he could do was wrap his arms around him and foul him b/c he was just backing it up at will?
Sure he's had nice moments, but he's probably not a top 30 low post scorer in the NBA.

Players who come to mind in five min who have better low post games in no particular order

KG
Okafor
Shaq
Brand
Amare
Bosh
Big Z
Yao
Duncan
Curry
Rasheed
Boozer
Magloire
Zach
Walker when he wants to play in the post
Shareef
K-Mart
Nene
Gasol
Jermaine O'Neal
Haywood
Al Harrington
Allanfan20
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8/23/2005  11:44 PM
Sweetney is a skilled low post scorer who hasn't quite established himself yet. He uses his big body and quick footwork to create nice moves to get in the lane and he's great at getting to the free throw line. It's really one of the more obvious things on the Knicks. If you can't see that, then you're not paying attention. Sweetney IS worthy of getting the ball a lot more. His problem is that he doesn't move his feet quick enough on defense, on the permimeter, particularly off the ball. But to saying "Mike Sweetney can't do jack squad in the post" is shouting out "I barely watch any Knick games and I just want to hear myself speak!"
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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8/23/2005  11:49 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:

the only low post moves he has are waiting for Marbury to create for him or grabbing an offensive rebound and scoring. You CANNOT run a offense through him. You CANNOT throw the ball to him and ask him to CREATE a low post scoring opportunity. That's what good low post scorers can do. Maybe Sweetney will be able to do that some time but he hasn't been able to in his 2 year career

in the words of marv: have you ever watched the guy play?

bonn, i'm saying this for your benefit - bail out of this thread immediately. you're not helping your cause...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08-23-2005 10:00 PM]
LOL! What low post moves does Mike have? Be specific if you can

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-23-2005 10:53 PM]


http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=11032
the video link doesn't work when I went to that thread. But if you're relying on a highlight video rather than watching the games, then your opinion makes a lot of sense now.

this makes no sense. bonn we're talking about sweetney here, not nazr. i think you're getting muslim's and christian's confused. if there's only one good thing you can say about mike, is that he has a POLISHED post up game. like marv said, he just never got the ball enough. don't you remember the game vs. the lakers where he was pretty much ABUSING mihm? and when kmart tried to guard him, all he could do was wrap his arms around him and foul him b/c he was just backing it up at will?
Sure he's had nice moments, but he's probably not a top 30 low post scorer in the NBA.

Players who come to mind in five min who have better low post games in no particular order

KG
Okafor
Shaq
Brand
Amare
Bosh
Big Z
Yao
Duncan
Curry
Rasheed
Boozer
Magloire
Zach
Walker when he wants to play in the post
Shareef
K-Mart
Nene
Gasol
Jermaine O'Neal
Haywood
Al Harrington

Come on Bonn. First off, Haywood isn't that good on offense. Secondly, K-Mart isn't that great of a low post scorer believe it or not. Sweetney might very well be better in terms of that. First of all, so what if those guys are better. It doesn't mean Sweetney isn't good at low post scoring. That doesn't help your arguement. Why don't you watch a game closely and evaluate a player.


“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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8/23/2005  11:50 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Sweetney is a skilled low post scorer who hasn't quite established himself yet. He uses his big body and quick footwork to create nice moves to get in the lane and he's great at getting to the free throw line. It's really one of the more obvious things on the Knicks. If you can't see that, then you're not paying attention. Sweetney IS worthy of getting the ball a lot more. His problem is that he doesn't move his feet quick enough on defense, on the permimeter, particularly off the ball. But to saying "Mike Sweetney can't do jack squad in the post" is shouting out "I barely watch any Knick games and I just want to hear myself speak!"
I didn't mean that he can't so much as that he hasn't thus far established the ability to create pts on his own in the post. I agree that he has the potential to someday be a player who can create scoring in the low post, but no matter how you claim otherwise, he isn't that kind of player yet

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-23-2005 11:58 PM]
Allanfan20
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8/23/2005  11:52 PM
I'm not claiming you're arrogant. I'm claiming that you're wrong and you just haven't paid attention. He can create on his own and just watch this season. If the Knicks don't utilize them, it's b/c they are relying on Marbury TOO MUCH, even though they SHOULD be going to Sweetney more. Watch Sweetney. He has plenty of moves and he certainly can create for himself in the post. I don't know how I can explain it more. I'm not going to go into every move I've seen him do.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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8/24/2005  12:01 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I'm not claiming you're arrogant. I'm claiming that you're wrong and you just haven't paid attention. He can create on his own and just watch this season. If the Knicks don't utilize them, it's b/c they are relying on Marbury TOO MUCH, even though they SHOULD be going to Sweetney more. Watch Sweetney. He has plenty of moves and he certainly can create for himself in the post. I don't know how I can explain it more. I'm not going to go into every move I've seen him do.
How many times does he create his own points in the low post per game? It's probably about 4 pts a week. My only point was that he hasn't SHOWN or ESTABLISHED enough consistent low post scoring to be considered a good low post scorer. I'm relying on what I have seen in Knick games, which is maybe 1 FG per week that he created for himself in the low post. Even a lot of mediocre front court players who are never praised for their low post scoring do that. Maybe Marbury, Ward, Crawford, Eisley, Isiah, Lenny, Chaney, and every coach and every NBA PG Sweetney has had just didn't realize he could do more in the low post right now. I suppose anything's possible




[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-24-2005 12:21 AM]
fishmike
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8/24/2005  7:51 AM
who is saying Sweetney doesnt have post moves? For the most part thats all he has. Dump it into him and he creates a high % shot. Anyone that cant see this isnt watching him every night or is <insert insult here>

Mike has great footwork, a great turnaround jumper, has shown nice up and under moves and has also shown he can score against taller players.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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8/24/2005  7:55 AM
How many times does he create his own points in the low post per game? It's probably about 4 pts a week.
If you told me you watched 75% of the games last year I would say your lying. Thats just not true. Sweetney never established a jumper and the guards didnt really create for him. The vast majority of his offense came from creating his own shot in the post.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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8/24/2005  8:41 AM
When you say all 3 guys, are you including Frye in there? If so, Frye is not foul prone. He was having problem adjusting in the SL, but this kid will find his niche

Posted by Allanfan20:

I am looking at our frontcourt, and I really do see a lot of potential, particularly in Sweetney and Frye. I see them as perfect compliments to eachother. However, being famous for their foul woes, all 3 of these guys are going to have to stay on the court. If, for most of the season, they keep getting into foul problems, we are not gonna be a very good ball club, b/c a team that relies on Malik Rose to be their best frontcourt player (It very well could be) is much worse off than a team that relies on Kurt Thomas as their best. If those 3 guys can stay on the court and play some defense, we are in good shape, but based on their history, all 3 of them might have trouble staying on, and if they can't, we are totally screwed in terms of hopes of making the playoffs. But lets hope that if the frontcourt sucks, it better suck bad enough for us to be a top 5 lottery team. God, I'm sick of us hoping we hit the lottery.


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Bonn1997
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8/24/2005  10:36 AM
Posted by fishmike:

who is saying Sweetney doesnt have post moves? For the most part thats all he has. Dump it into him and he creates a high % shot. Anyone that cant see this isnt watching him every night or is <insert insult here>
Most of the creation of the shot is done by Marbury, though (drawing defenders away from Mike). Mike has some low post moves (I was obviously exaggerating when I said he can't do squat); my only claim was that he's not a top 30 low post player and unless he shows in practice that he has several moves that he can create on his own where all you have to do is hand the ball to him and move out of his way, then he shouldn't be the focus of the offense. Just to perfectly clear for a few of you: Mike DOES have low post moves now, but he needs to do most of the creating for him. He has great hands and is VERY effective once Marbury draws defenders away from him. And yes, occasionally he does do up and unders and fade away shots. My point was that he hasn't show it to be a reliable part of his game or something you can depend on and that there are probably 30 maybe 50 frontcourt players who once or twice a week show a nice up and under or fade away jump shot too. It's nice to know that they can under certain circumstances do those moves, but Sweetney has to show that he can do it *reliably* (first in practice, then in pre-season) if he wants the Knicks to use him during the season as a focal point of the offense.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-24-2005 10:42 AM]
djsunyc
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8/24/2005  10:44 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

who is saying Sweetney doesnt have post moves? For the most part thats all he has. Dump it into him and he creates a high % shot. Anyone that cant see this isnt watching him every night or is <insert insult here>
Most of the creation of the shot is done by Marbury, though (drawing defenders away from Mike). Mike has some low post moves (I was obviously exaggerating when I said he can't do squat); my only claim was that he's not a top 30 low post player and unless he shows in practice that he has several moves that he can create on his own where all you have to do is hand the ball to him and move out of his way, then he shouldn't be the focus of the offense. Just to perfectly clear for a few of you: Mike DOES have low post moves now, but he needs to do most of the creating for him. He has great hands and is VERY effective once Marbury draws defenders away from him. And yes, occasionally he does do up and unders and fade away shots. My point was that he hasn't show it to be a reliable part of his game or something you can depend on and that there are probably 30 maybe 50 frontcourt players who once or twice a week show a nice up and under or fade away jump shot too. It's nice to know that they can under certain circumstances do those moves, but Sweetney has to show that he can do it *reliably* (first in practice, then in pre-season) if he wants the Knicks to use him during the season as a focal point of the offense.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-24-2005 10:42 AM]


it's tough to show it when, you know, HE DOESN'T GET THE DAMN BALL!!!
fishmike
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8/24/2005  11:07 AM
yea, exactly DJ. Our guards arent creating crap for Mike, and didnt all year. Chasing offensive rebounds and getting put backs is not having Marbury create for you, its cleaning up his mess.

Anytime they fed MS in the post good things happened, and it was MS creating his own shot. The only real issue IMO is why they didnt feed a guy shooting > 50% and drawing tons of FTs more. Hopefully LB does something about that, because MS can score in the post with anyone. If we are going to see Mike chasing guards and setting picks 20 feet away then your just going to get more of the same
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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8/24/2005  11:21 AM
How can you blame that on our guards? Coaches have draw plays, not our guards. Blame it on Lenny and Herb for failing to proper use our assets.
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fishmike
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8/24/2005  11:38 AM
dido... some guys look to pass first, others look to shoot first. Which do you think ours look to do?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Allanfan20
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8/24/2005  11:54 AM
I think when training camp starts, since LB is our coach and is new, he wont be looking at only vets or only youngies, so this really gives Sweetney a shot to show off what he has. No job is on the line here, for once, so if Mike can create on his own, I think LB will be nowhere near hesitant about getting Marbury and Jamal and Nate to give Sweet Pea the ball. Funny thing is, he's a pretty good passer too, out of the double team. So to say he doesn't have moves is one thing. But to say he doesn't do anything in the low post is another thing. There's so much more than just making moves, and yes, being able to catch feeds from Marbury IS a good thing, as well as cleaning the offensive glass, hitting the baby J, and passing out of the double, which he gets it all the time. He's a good ars ball player.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
diderotn
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8/24/2005  11:55 AM
First of all, early on last year, Lenny should have had a lineup of Sweetney and Kurt or Sweetney and Nazr on the court instead of Nazr and Kurt. frankly, Lenny didn't properly use his assets. He had Marb, Crawf and Kurt taking too many shots instead of trying to identify or develop the inside out game. despite all that, Marb still averaged 8 apg...Our boys did share the basket, guys just weren't making shots....

Here is a stat for you

Kurt thomas took 901 shots and made 424. He missed 497 shots which could have been 497 more assists...Between Nazr, TT and Kurt, they missed 1122 shots. I didn't even include the shots that Crawff missed.
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fishmike
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8/24/2005  12:03 PM
Lenny should have told them not to miss
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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8/24/2005  12:05 PM
I really think that the team is going to hinge on how Larry Brown utilizes Marbury. We basically know what we should get from all the frontcourt guys. Is Marbs the point? Where do Q and Craw fit in? How much run does Nate get?

We have depth up front. It's foolish to count on James for more than 24mpg at 4 fouls, 7pts and 5rebs and hopefully 1.5blks. It's foolish to expect Sweetney and Frye to have breakout seasons. I think for this team to be successful, it has to focus the offense on the perimeter guys, and some Sweetney. Lean on the bigs for defense.
¿ △ ?
Allanfan20
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8/24/2005  12:05 PM
First off, it's 477 shots he miss, not 497. Secondly, KT was basically a 50% (Very close to it) pick and pop shooter. Ummmmm, that's freaking reliable as hell. I'm sorry, but if KT has that shot, I'm saying "Hey KT, why are you hesitating for a microsecond. Knock the J baby!" He got caught waaaaaaay too much isht from people, just b/c he was forced to be the best frontcourt player on the team.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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