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JYD Retires
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TMS
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8/17/2005  10:20 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TheloniusMonk:

"Williams added that he would not have retired had the amnesty clause not been used"

Just like some of us suspected.

has the 3rd remaining year left on JYD's deal been proven to be a mutual option rather than as a team option as was originally thought? if not, then it still makes more sense to waive Shandon or Mo Taylor & reap more savings, whether JYD were to retire or not...where is the verified source that proves JYD's contract has a 3rd mutual option year? anyone know?

personally i would have rather had JYD rehabbing on the Knick's roster than having Mo Taylor taking up space & minutes away from Mike Sweetney...this is Sweetney's year to make it or break it in my eyes, & judging from Channing Frye's performance in the summer leagues, it looks like he'd be better suited to play the PF as well...so that creates an even bigger glut at the PF spot...JYD can play the SF as well so i don't see how waiving him makes the most sense until that 3rd year question is definitively answered.
What's a mutual option? I'm not aware of that type of contract option


neither am i...but apparently some here are convinced that there exists a clause in JYD's contract that entitled him refusal rights even if the Knicks decided to pass on his last option year.
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PhilinLA
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8/17/2005  10:37 PM
I'm glad JYD's staying with the organization.
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
eViL
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8/17/2005  11:38 PM
Posted by TMS:

if there's anyone here w/that verified source on JYD's contract, i would honestly like to see it.

Here's a question: with the NY sports media always dying to kill Isiah on his moves, why aren't the writers challenging the length of JYD's contract? Seems like it's being widely reported and widely accepted. Why does anyone here have to prove the deal was the length and value that was reported? Why don't people prove otherwise*?

*Hoopshype.com doesn't count.

[Edited by - eViL on 08-17-2005 11:42 PM]
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TMS
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8/17/2005  11:40 PM
widely reported where? i haven't read a single source that said JYD had 3 guaranteed years left on his deal...if you have a source, give it to me...& i'm not saying this to be sarcastic either...i honestly would like to see where it says JYD has 3 years left on his deal that were guaranteed...when i hear posters ragging on me & others for complaining about moves while lacking facts, & then unable to provide proof of their own, it comes across as pretty hollow...& again, i have never been afraid to admit i was wrong on any subject...some of the newbs here who want to put labels on me while not knowing crap about what i've stood for in the past can say what they will, but i'm here to learn more about the Knicks just like the most of you are...i'm not now nor have i ever been a know it all, unlike some of the trashtalking kids around here who think they know something about this team.

[Edited by - TMS on 08-17-2005 11:45 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
eViL
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8/17/2005  11:51 PM
C'mon man. I'm not involved in the hater vs. lover war here (by the way, it's getting to the point where it's so crazy you're addressing it in your sig - that's like the number one sign that you are probably taking this way too seriously and way too personally.) I'm just saying, I've read more than a few articles state the deal had $21 million left on it:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050816/SPORTS01/508160327/1108

http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/williamswaive_050815.html

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix164386226aug16,0,7677046.story?coll=ny-knicks-bigpix

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/sports/basketball/16knicks.html

I see Berman reported JYD's deal had $12.5 million remaining. I don't know what to say. I haven't seen him rebut all the articles that have come out stating otherwise, why not? Maybe his source was Hoopshype and maybe they were wrong.
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TMS
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8/18/2005  12:12 AM
well then i stand corrected if those articles are true...i've gone under the notion that JYD's last year was a team option...if that's the case, then we're talking about a $2 million dollar savings over waiving Mo Taylor's contract...my apologies to you & anyone else that i've argued this with over the past 2 days...losing 1 of my favorite Knick players upset me to the point where i probably didn't read up on the matter as much as i should have.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
eViL
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8/18/2005  12:50 AM
Dude, there's definitely no problems between you and I. I know you're a Knick fan and I've been posting and/or reading these boards for a while. There's not to many people here I don't consider cool (maybe Islesfan - he's a dick... but even he has managed to develop some charm in that it's gotten to the point where he's almost a parody of himself, which now makes him cool).

Anyway, I wanna correct myself on my previous post. Berman reported $12.5 at first and now reports $21. So that might just seal it.

Not that anyone asked: My advice to all those involved in the wars, keep it light. Everyone adds something unique and that's cool. People are fans in all sorts of different ways. You've got the religous fans, overzealous fans, chill fans, over-analytical fans, ceiling fans, eternal optimist fans, pessimists to the extreme fans, islesfans, psychic jamaican virtual philosopher fans, gay robot fans, fans that stalk gay robots with funny posts fans, redundant fans of redundance fans, fans of making lists fans, the newsbreaker fans, the proof-seeker fans, the link-needer fans, the oversmiley-ing fans , the bring up 2 year old arguments fans, the in-house cyber statistician fans, the spellcheck fans, the never can quite get the quote function to work properly fans, the overquoting fans, the 8000 posts in 2 months fans, the jokester fans, the wannabe GM fans, the plan fans, the steal posts from other websites and claim them as their own fans, the banned fans, half-poster half-secret scout fans, the poll fans, the pole fans, did I say gay robot fans? the fans that get it fans, the eViL fans The point is: we're the ultimate fans. That is, the ultimateknicks.com fans.

[Edited by - eViL on 08-18-2005 12:55 AM]
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islesfan
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8/18/2005  1:08 AM
Sorry but this pisses me off even more. This is exactly what some of us were talking about when we said that they should have let JYD retire. If they had told JYD that they were going to use the amnesty on him and he told them that he was subsequently going to retire then the Knicks are absolute morons. They could have easily come to an agreement with JYD where he wouldn't get amnestied but would retire and still be paid his entire contract. Then the Knicks could have amnestied Shandon.

They didn't need for it to be a medical retirement and they still would have freed up a roster spot.

Yeah, go back to that thread and you'll see that not only did some of us not jump the gun but we were dead on in suggesting that JYD should have been allowed to retire and the amnesty should have been used on Shandon.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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8/18/2005  1:10 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

waaaaaa! Waaaaaaa!

Keep crying, got nothing else to gripe about...keep on crying...still waiting for the personal assault.

I know you have it in you.




You have your head so far up Isiah's behind, you probably taste the Kool-Aid 5 seconds after Isiah drinks it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TheloniusMonk
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8/18/2005  1:24 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by rvhoss:

waaaaaa! Waaaaaaa!

Keep crying, got nothing else to gripe about...keep on crying...still waiting for the personal assault.

I know you have it in you.




You have your head so far up Isiah's behind, you probably taste the Kool-Aid 5 seconds after Isiah drinks it.

I find it hilarious that you actually take it personally that people like Isiah Thomas lol
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
firefly
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8/18/2005  5:44 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Sorry but this pisses me off even more. This is exactly what some of us were talking about when we said that they should have let JYD retire. If they had told JYD that they were going to use the amnesty on him and he told them that he was subsequently going to retire then the Knicks are absolute morons. They could have easily come to an agreement with JYD where he wouldn't get amnestied but would retire and still be paid his entire contract. Then the Knicks could have amnestied Shandon.

They didn't need for it to be a medical retirement and they still would have freed up a roster spot.

Yeah, go back to that thread and you'll see that not only did some of us not jump the gun but we were dead on in suggesting that JYD should have been allowed to retire and the amnesty should have been used on Shandon.

What in heavens name are you talking about? If JYD would have retired "non-medically" as you say, nothing would have changed, except the fact that JYD would not have played at all, instead of the approx. 100 minutes he was schedule to play this season. His salary would still have to have been paid, it would have been on the cap AND on the luxury tax list. What would have been the use? A roster spot? If they need a roster spot so bad, they can waive Bruno, or get HIM to retire. He'll probably play more ball sitting at home then with the Knicks anyway

This way, we saved $21m by waiving JYD, we gain a roster spot, plus, we have the additional benefit if Houston does retire for medical reasons, which give us huge gains in salary relief, and a nice trading chip with his retirement exception.

Allowing JYD to retire for non-medical reason would have done nothing, nothing!!

But hey, I'm not one to stand in the way of free speech. If you want something to complain about, go get piles.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
islesfan
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8/18/2005  12:40 PM
Posted by firefly:
Posted by islesfan:

Sorry but this pisses me off even more. This is exactly what some of us were talking about when we said that they should have let JYD retire. If they had told JYD that they were going to use the amnesty on him and he told them that he was subsequently going to retire then the Knicks are absolute morons. They could have easily come to an agreement with JYD where he wouldn't get amnestied but would retire and still be paid his entire contract. Then the Knicks could have amnestied Shandon.

They didn't need for it to be a medical retirement and they still would have freed up a roster spot.

Yeah, go back to that thread and you'll see that not only did some of us not jump the gun but we were dead on in suggesting that JYD should have been allowed to retire and the amnesty should have been used on Shandon.

What in heavens name are you talking about? If JYD would have retired "non-medically" as you say, nothing would have changed, except the fact that JYD would not have played at all, instead of the approx. 100 minutes he was schedule to play this season. His salary would still have to have been paid, it would have been on the cap AND on the luxury tax list. What would have been the use? A roster spot? If they need a roster spot so bad, they can waive Bruno, or get HIM to retire. He'll probably play more ball sitting at home then with the Knicks anyway

This way, we saved $21m by waiving JYD, we gain a roster spot, plus, we have the additional benefit if Houston does retire for medical reasons, which give us huge gains in salary relief, and a nice trading chip with his retirement exception.

Allowing JYD to retire for non-medical reason would have done nothing, nothing!!

But hey, I'm not one to stand in the way of free speech. If you want something to complain about, go get piles.


Try to keep up this time.

If we let him retire we still pay him, the same as we are now. His salary doesn't get taken off the luxury tax but you still can amnesty Shandon and save even more money. We gain the roster spot that Kool-Aid drinkers say is the reason for the move. This is just another example of how inept the Knicks management is.

Houston has nothing to do with my argument since I was never a supporter of using the amnesty on him.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TheloniusMonk
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8/18/2005  10:16 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Sorry but this pisses me off even more. This is exactly what some of us were talking about when we said that they should have let JYD retire. If they had told JYD that they were going to use the amnesty on him and he told them that he was subsequently going to retire then the Knicks are absolute morons.

Get it through your thick head. JYD WOULD NOT HAVE RETIRED UNLESS HE WAS AMNESTIED.

You're saying that the 'threat' of using the amnesty on him would have forced him to retire and hammer out a deal with the Knicks. The fact that he didn't retire until 2 days AFTER they actually used the amnesty rule on him should let you know that he was calling their bluff. They said they sat down with him prior to making the decision. I'm sure he had the opportunity to retire right then and there and take a job in the organization. He was obviously willing to wait it out...call their bluff and see if they would actually use it on him. They did. It was THEN they he is now making a deal to work in the front office or community or whatever the hell he's suppose to be doing within the organization.

JYD said himself that he would not have retire unless the Amnesty rule was USED on him. Not the threat of it. He had to actually be cut to make the decision he's making now.


'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
islesfan
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8/18/2005  11:58 PM
Are you always this obtuse? What are you talking about threats and forcing people to do things? All they had to do was say "Hey Jerome, we really appreciate what you bring to the team but we're going to have to use the amnesty on you." Then they could ask him if he was planning on retiring then maybe he could help the team by retiring without using the amnesty on him and in return we would pay his entire contract and offer him a position with the team.

There was no need for threats or bluffs or whatever tactic you seem to think was necessary aside from being honest and up front.

Wait a minute, our GM being honest and up front?? Nevermind.

[Edited by - islesfan on 08-19-2005 12:00 AM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TheloniusMonk
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8/19/2005  12:17 AM
Posted by islesfan:

All they had to do was say "Hey Jerome, we really appreciate what you bring to the team but we're going to have to use the amnesty on you." Then they could ask him if he was planning on retiring then maybe he could help the team by retiring without using the amnesty on him and in return we would pay his entire contract and offer him a position with the team.


[Edited by - islesfan on 08-19-2005 12:00 AM]

Get it through your thick head.


They said they sat down and presented their plan to him before the deadline. He obviously declined to cooporate with that. Put two and two together. He called their bluff and they went ahead and did what they said they would do. That's obviously what the closed door meeting was for......to figure out how they could intelligently use the amnesty in hopes that he could cooporate and help them use ot on someone else. Didn't work.

He already said that if they hadn't used it he wouldn't have retired....period.

Translation: If they would have done what you said and ASKED HIM (which is hilarious) to retire without the team using the amnesty his answer would have been NO. Period. This is the point in him saying he would NOT have retired unless it was already used on him. But he made that comment AFTER THE FACT. If during negotiations they got nowhere, common sense tells you that he was telling them he'd go to another team and continue to play. His agent even leeked that to papers.

Cut to two days later, it was used THEN he made the decision to retire. He obviously felt he could NOT go on yet his agent was bluffing thet he'd go play on another team. Point blank, if the amnesty wasn't used on him he would still be playing whether they ASKED him to retire or not.....no negotiations to help the Knicks use it on someone else.



'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
islesfan
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8/19/2005  12:27 AM
Believe it or not but not every conversation and negotiation has to be confrontational where threats and bluffs and calling others bluffs have to be made. Obviously this is a case where none of that was needed since they parted amicably where they offered JYD a position with the team afterwards. Since that was the case it's completely reasonable to suggest what I did. If you can't see that, I can't say that I'd be surprised since you're so obtuse.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TheloniusMonk
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8/19/2005  12:38 AM
Just like I thought.

No point at all. That plan was ridiculous to begin with.
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TheloniusMonk
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8/19/2005  12:40 AM
If you me need to be more specific:

You're plan had no legs because there was obviously a meeting prior to his removal where he was notified of what would happen. He obviously told them that he would not be retiring. Hence, leaks to press of interest in other teams.

Waived = reality check.

It's as simple as that.
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
islesfan
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8/19/2005  12:54 AM
Posted by TheloniusMonk:

Just like I thought.

No point at all. That plan was ridiculous to begin with.


Of course it was. Because being up front and honest are things that you can't possibly comprehend. That's ok, neither can our GM.

Telling a player that they're going to be amnestied is a reality check. Negotiating from there is as simple as that. But not for Isiah.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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8/19/2005  1:05 AM
i think none of us really know how it went down with jyd.
but if there was something not on the up and up and ultimatums were given, then jyd would not still be with the organization. that's the only sign to go by.

hey, it's also possible that jyd retiring may not be granted b/c of medical reasons, so that route may have been high risk since he played most of last season without missing significant time due to injury.

it's very possible any one of those scenarios already presented on this thread played out but at the end of the day, we're left with the rule being used on jyd and h20 possibly retiring due to medical reasons. if that's how it ends up, then that might have been the plan all along. and if that was the plan, then it was a good plan. but so far...the other shoe hasn't dropped yet so we're still left speculating.
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