Posted by islesfan:

Posted by simrud:

There is no question we got younger and more athletic really, the issue here is that IT has not done as good of a job as a GM as some expected him to. A good portin of his moves are questionable. Its fine to discuss this, but then you get jerks who can't handle a difference of opinon (and you know who you are) who only know how to post hater this hater that. Then comes a kneejerk retaliation to such brilliant arguments and the discussion detriorates into "i'm right, no i'm right, you suck, you suck more, dumbass!, jerk, etc.".

Yeah I'm getting pretty tired of being called a "Hater". I don't know what I've done to be labeled something like that. Now excuse me while I go make another pitcher of Kool-Aid for the simpletons on this board.

oh isles, quit being such a hater.

isles pretty much didn't like too many things from the get go so he is at one end of the spectrum and he is consistent with his views.

to me, it's still stuck somewhere in the middle.

the youth is great, i like it, but we also paid for it. but i guess coming from the situation we were in, we had to.

but there were moves that just didn't work out or made me scratch my head.

therefore the job done so far is a "C". at the end of the day, the only thing tangible is wins/losses and so far, we haven't had any. will we this season and the following? it's possible.

but to get out of the mess layden left us with, we needed someone to make ALL awesome moves. that hasn't been the case, so the process is a little delayed. that doesn't mean it won't evenutally work, but it also doesn't mean it will work either.

all i can say is let's go knicks!!!

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by simrud:

There is no question we got younger and more athletic really, the issue here is that IT has not done as good of a job as a GM as some expected him to. A good portin of his moves are questionable. Its fine to discuss this, but then you get jerks who can't handle a difference of opinon (and you know who you are) who only know how to post hater this hater that. Then comes a kneejerk retaliation to such brilliant arguments and the discussion detriorates into "i'm right, no i'm right, you suck, you suck more, dumbass!, jerk, etc.".

thats pretty much it. I dont know why I cant express thoughts on how hosed we got on some of these deals without being labeled a hater. I have said I thought he did a great job using the draft, which includes the KT trade. I even said I understood the TT/Nazr deal despite it not working out. I just think most of the rest is lame. I think a good GM would have done much better considering the resources he had to work with.

what resources? (seriously)

I think if anything Isiah has done a good job adding resources and value for some of our guys. He got three #1 picks, Malik Rose and Quentin Richardson for Kurt Thomas and Nazr Mohammed. Those are very good deals for a rebuilding team. He got Marbury and Crawford for crap. Yes, the Marbury move cost us some expiring deals and two picks (one of which Phoenix gave away and it became Kirk Snyder), but we mostly agree the Knicks franchise needed the shot in the arm/electricity Marbury brought.

Sure, he's had bad moves - trading for Mo, signing Vin Baker, possibly signing Jerome James. But none of these moves are moves that effected our core in any way. They're stop gaps, spare parts to fill in the holes around the core.

The core, meanwhile, has gotten better under Isiah. I'd call the core of the team: Marbury, Crawford, Sweetney, Ariza, Q, Nate, Lee, Frye. Under Layden, Sweetney was here but unused. The rest of the core? Who knows? Frank Williams was here but he didn't start once until Isiah showed up. We were banking on KVH, McDyess and Houston - all three of those guys have been ravaged by injuries left and right. At least now there's a young core to count on and watch develop and root for. The roster has plenty of flexibility: TT, Penny and even Sweetney expire this year. There are several guys: Malik, Q, Craw with solid, reasonable contracts.

No GM bats 1.000. Look at Jerry West. Look at anyone, shoot even Phoenix has made a few mistakes (giving away their pick to Chicago, turned into L. Deng). I like the general direction the team is moving in. Yes, because it's Dolan and the Knicks there will be moves that are focused on making the playoffs, but at least now we have a strong young core. I'm not saying you can't dissent, dissent is good, but I hate this crap that Isiah doesn't have a plan and Isiah is ruining the franchise. He's not ruining the franchise, he's pretty clearly rebuilding a young, athletic squad with a solid coach.

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by simrud:

There is no question we got younger and more athletic really, the issue here is that IT has not done as good of a job as a GM as some expected him to. A good portin of his moves are questionable. Its fine to discuss this, but then you get jerks who can't handle a difference of opinon (and you know who you are) who only know how to post hater this hater that. Then comes a kneejerk retaliation to such brilliant arguments and the discussion detriorates into "i'm right, no i'm right, you suck, you suck more, dumbass!, jerk, etc.".

thats pretty much it. I dont know why I cant express thoughts on how hosed we got on some of these deals without being labeled a hater. I have said I thought he did a great job using the draft, which includes the KT trade. I even said I understood the TT/Nazr deal despite it not working out. I just think most of the rest is lame. I think a good GM would have done much better considering the resources he had to work with.

what resources? (seriously)

I think if anything Isiah has done a good job adding resources and value for some of our guys. He got three #1 picks, Malik Rose and Quentin Richardson for Kurt Thomas and Nazr Mohammed. Those are very good deals for a rebuilding team. He got Marbury and Crawford for crap. Yes, the Marbury move cost us some expiring deals and two picks (one of which Phoenix gave away and it became Kirk Snyder), but we mostly agree the Knicks franchise needed the shot in the arm/electricity Marbury brought.

Sure, he's had bad moves - trading for Mo, signing Vin Baker, possibly signing Jerome James. But none of these moves are moves that effected our core in any way. They're stop gaps, spare parts to fill in the holes around the core.

The core, meanwhile, has gotten better under Isiah. I'd call the core of the team: Marbury, Crawford, Sweetney, Ariza, Q, Nate, Lee, Frye. Under Layden, Sweetney was here but unused. The rest of the core? Who knows? Frank Williams was here but he didn't start once until Isiah showed up. We were banking on KVH, McDyess and Houston - all three of those guys have been ravaged by injuries left and right. At least now there's a young core to count on and watch develop and root for. The roster has plenty of flexibility: TT, Penny and even Sweetney expire this year. There are several guys: Malik, Q, Craw with solid, reasonable contracts.

No GM bats 1.000. Look at Jerry West. Look at anyone, shoot even Phoenix has made a few mistakes (giving away their pick to Chicago, turned into L. Deng). I like the general direction the team is moving in. Yes, because it's Dolan and the Knicks there will be moves that are focused on making the playoffs, but at least now we have a strong young core. I'm not saying you can't dissent, dissent is good, but I hate this crap that Isiah doesn't have a plan and Isiah is ruining the franchise. He's not ruining the franchise, he's pretty clearly rebuilding a young, athletic squad with a solid coach.

I was thinking the same thing. Without Nash, honestly, the Suns would be in the trash. Even with Amare. Jerry west hasnt done ANYTHING in Memphis other than shuffle players. His team is trash, and he has Pau, he had swift. He has and had players. Posey at SF. Bonzi wells. Shane Battier. He had decent coaches. Look at the results.

I dont care unless we are in the Conference Finals or the Finals. Otherwise, it's all the same to me. It's not real unless you make it past the second round and into basketball's final 4.

Posted by Caseloads:

isles, we would have had to take 6 steps back to tear it all down... but if the knicks are terrible this year and next we still have a shot at:

O.J. Mayo -- or any of the other players whom Phoenix will probably get (or Greg Oden, or J.J. Redick, or Allan Ray, or Darius Washington Jr., or someone of that worth) because of the draft picks that came with trading Johnson)

Posted by crzymdups:

I don't buy that Vuja and Lampe had any more value around the league than what we got from them - throw-ins in a deal that was all about cap room for the Suns.

The Nazr trade looks fine. Ask any Spurs fan what they think about that trade - they hate Nazr. After game 1 of the Finals, he was awful in that series and almost cost them the whole thing. He is a decent player, but he's not a starter unless you have a superstar to make up for his flaws. It's impossible to tell what kind of player David Lee will be at this point. He could be starting by the end of the year. This is Larry Brown who loves guys like Lee. And to say Nate is a career backup at this point is dismissive. You pine for the days when we had "trade chips" like the mythical Vuja and Lampe, yet dismiss Nate and Lee before they play a game? I'm guessing you liked Lampe more than you like Frye too, right?

It's nice to say Isiah should have blown up the 03-04 squad, but we all know where the mandate to make the playoffs in year one came from - Dolan. At Zeke's press conference, Zeke said, "obviously, it's going to take a few years..." and Dolan interupted, "but we're making the playoffs this year." That doesn't excuse Thomas for not rebuilding, but it's a frightening glimpse into what actually goes on behind closed doors at MSG.

Basically, you can keep going back in Knicks history and pointing out things that should've been done. Should've kept Nene or drafted Amare, should've drafted Artest over Weis, Shouldn't have traded Ewing, shouldn't have signed Houston, shouldn't have traded Mark Jackson, etc, etc, etc.

I just think it's ridiculous to be upset over this stuff well after the fact.