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Times: Bad Knees and Worse Contract, but a Gentleman Will Return
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/16/2005  8:31 PM
My problem with Houston is that all the props are old props.

...Allan was...

...H20 has been...

All those past tense words, and hasn't helped us one bit in the last 2 years. He can't give us the one dimension he brought to the table the few years after the '99 run (prior to the knee getting worse).

Silver and I have been on the same page on this issue for a long time. It by no means should be considered hate. More than a few of us are ready to simply move on.

Lastly, the issue of what dimensions or skills matter, it's true that shooting gets two points, but:

Passing allows a teammate to get 2 points

Dribbling helps against getting picked off and therefore allowing the opposition to score 2 points

Rebounding helps earn the chance to score 2 points

Defense helps prevent the opposition from scoring 2 points.

These skills matter. Basketball is much more intricate than just scoring.

Spree played the 3 when the two is his natural spot because he was versatile enough to make it happen. He'd contributed positively in several areas that Allan couldn't, granted that Allan was (there it is again! LOL) the best shooter on the team.

Present day: Isiah thomas has gone on record to state that the Knicks are looking for players who are athletic and can play multiple positions- neither a defining attribute of Allan Houston.

Again, it's not hate, simply a legitimate reason.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
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djsunyc
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8/16/2005  8:36 PM
h20 was really a good player for us.
he got a nasty deal that many can't get past.
and if he doesn't retire, then not waiving him will only tarnish his legacy here even more.

a healthy h20 and marbury, with craw off the bench would've been the best backcourt in the nba - hands down b/c they all complement each other.

but alas, twas not meant to be.

we should've waived him and moved on.

and for those that are pissed, they have a right to be. especially after season one of the building blocks in dallas, the guy that's been there since the beginning, and through the glory years, and is STILL PLAYING AT A GOOD LEVEL, was just cut b/c of financial reasons. in the meantime, we're hoping our guy comes back b/c loyalty and friendship is more important than the best for the franchise.

maybe it's good karma.

maybe we just suck.

time will tell...
OldFan
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8/16/2005  8:47 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

My problem with Houston is that all the props are old props.

...Allan was...

...H20 has been...

All those past tense words, and hasn't helped us one bit in the last 2 years. He can't give us the one dimension he brought to the table the few years after the '99 run (prior to the knee getting worse).

Silver and I have been on the same page on this issue for a long time. It by no means should be considered hate. More than a few of us are ready to simply move on.

Lastly, the issue of what dimensions or skills matter, it's true that shooting gets two points, but:

Passing allows a teammate to get 2 points

Dribbling helps against getting picked off and therefore allowing the opposition to score 2 points

Rebounding helps earn the chance to score 2 points

Defense helps prevent the opposition from scoring 2 points.

These skills matter. Basketball is much more intricate than just scoring.

Spree played the 3 when the two is his natural spot because he was versatile enough to make it happen. He'd contributed positively in several areas that Allan couldn't, granted that Allan was (there it is again! LOL) the best shooter on the team.

Present day: Isiah thomas has gone on record to state that the Knicks are looking for players who are athletic and can play multiple positions- neither a defining attribute of Allan Houston.

Again, it's not hate, simply a legitimate reason.


Shooters can get other players shots - without touching the ball. Houston was not an all-around player but he did make it easier for others to score. Just the fact that his man couldn't sit back in the paint helped but he also had the attention of other defenders even if he wasn't double teamed.

I'm hoping he can come back and provide someone who can keep defenses honest or if not he retires. I think that is inline with the Knicks thinking.
Silverfuel
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8/16/2005  8:50 PM
Very good post Hardcore.

oohah: Houston did play a little defense and drive in 1999. Not a lot but he did do a little bit of it. It was another poster on this forum that pointed this out to me. He actually volunteered to FWD tapes from that season to me. If you check his FG%, it was close to 49% which is a whole 4 to 5 points higher than any other year. He also ran around with Reggie and other SGs on defense. Most importantly, like Hardcore said, all his props are pre-1999. There is no hate for Allan Houston, just dislike for his game.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
oohah
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8/17/2005  12:36 AM
My problem with Houston is that all the props are old props.
...Allan was...

...H20 has been...

All those past tense words, and hasn't helped us one bit in the last 2 years. He can't give us the one dimension he brought to the table the few years after the '99 run (prior to the knee getting worse).

Hardcore, perhaps you weren't aware, but Allan Houston has been injured for most of the past 2 seasons. There is no other way to refer to his game but in the past tense! I have never attempted to say he will even play again let alone be the same player. I know better. My only argument has been regarding folks trying to cut down his game when he did play, and Allan as a person when I don't think it is relevant.
Silver and I have been on the same page on this issue for a long time. It by no means should be considered hate. More than a few of us are ready to simply move on.

That's fine, and I concur with that opinion for the most part. But he was good in his time...My only point.
Lastly, the issue of what dimensions or skills matter, it's true that shooting gets two points, but:

Passing allows a teammate to get 2 points

Dribbling helps against getting picked off and therefore allowing the opposition to score 2 points

Rebounding helps earn the chance to score 2 points

Defense helps prevent the opposition from scoring 2 points.

These skills matter. Basketball is much more intricate than just scoring.


Agreed! Are you refuting anything? Of course, none of these skills actually puts the ball in the basket. They AID in that task. Scoring is the goal, that is why the basket is called the goal. Putting the ball in the basket is all any team is really trying to do. (Or stop the other team from doing the same.) The way a basketball game is decided by points scored, not by any other statistic.
Spree played the 3 when the two is his natural spot because he was versatile enough to make it happen. He'd contributed positively in several areas that Allan couldn't, granted that Allan was (there it is again! LOL) the best shooter on the team.

That is true as well. Moving Spree to the 3 was detrimental to Spree's game, but it would have been more detrimental to Houston's game, and therefore (maybe) more harmful to the team as a whole.
Present day: Isiah thomas has gone on record to state that the Knicks are looking for players who are athletic and can play multiple positions- neither a defining attribute of Allan Houston

The only reason we are loking for a replacement for Houston is because he cannot play. Athleticism--or anything else has nothing to do with it.

Getting athletic players is a sound strategy for any basketball team.
Again, it's not hate, simply a legitimate reason.

The reason is Houston can't play.
oohah: Houston did play a little defense and drive in 1999. Not a lot but he did do a little bit of it. It was another poster on this forum that pointed this out to me. He actually volunteered to FWD tapes from that season to me. If you check his FG%, it was close to 49% which is a whole 4 to 5 points higher than any other year. He also ran around with Reggie and other SGs on defense. Most importantly, like Hardcore said, all his props are pre-1999. There is no hate for Allan Houston, just dislike for his game.

Come on Silverfuel, are you basing this opinion on a highlight reel somebody offered to show you? Do you think that all the other years Reggie Miller just ran around and Houston sat back and had a smoke? He was just not that good of a defensive player! And so what if he had a higher FPG that year? All it means is that he had a really good shooting year! Pehaps that was the best year of his career. What of it?

We could put together a reel of Houston from last year that makes him look great if we just clip all the best parts. Remember the clutch shot against Philly? Houston must have had a great 04-05! Every year I have seen him make plays that are impressive, he is an NBA player! We could make a tape of Tim Thomas that makes him look insanely good. Just about any NBA player who plays you can make highlight reel from, even Charlie Ward, that is why they play in front of the big lights.

What Hardcore actually said is that his props are post '99. Houston was an all-start in 00 and 01. He was pretty damn good until 03-04 when he just couldn't play. He was pretty good throughout his Knicks career. Even if you don't like his game.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Silverfuel
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8/17/2005  7:16 AM
Come on Silverfuel, are you basing this opinion on a highlight reel somebody offered to show you? Do you think that all the other years Reggie Miller just ran around and Houston sat back and had a smoke? He was just not that good of a defensive player! And so what if he had a higher FPG that year? All it means is that he had a really good shooting year! Pehaps that was the best year of his career. What of it?

We could put together a reel of Houston from last year that makes him look great if we just clip all the best parts. Remember the clutch shot against Philly? Houston must have had a great 04-05! Every year I have seen him make plays that are impressive, he is an NBA player! We could make a tape of Tim Thomas that makes him look insanely good. Just about any NBA player who plays you can make highlight reel from, even Charlie Ward, that is why they play in front of the big lights.
2 paragraphs telling me I shouldnt base my opinion on highlights when I didnt. I reviewed a few games from 1999, I think you should too if u have access to them. You will see he drove more to hoop than he did the following years. This is most probably the reason his FG% was so much higher than any other year. Same with his defense. He just didnt try as much on defense the other years. You will also have a lot of fun watching games from 1999. That was the last time the Knick team was good.
What Hardcore actually said is that his props are post '99. Houston was an all-start in 00 and 01. He was pretty damn good until 03-04 when he just couldn't play. He was pretty good throughout his Knicks career. Even if you don't like his game.
I already said he was a good player. Even at his best though, the offense should never have run around him. He is not the type of player that can help a team while being the focus of the offense. Yea, he put the ball in the basket but all he did was shoot which does not help your teammates. You have to help your team if you wanna win more games. Fans of Allan Houston insist that all he needed was a little support. Thats false. He should have been the guy providing that little support to a better offensive player. Not his fault and I never said it was. If you agree with that, we are in agreement.

Allan Houston reminds me of Glen Robinson who was better than him at putting the ball in the basketball. Hell, Kendall Gill was amazing at putting the ball in the basket in 1996-97. All role players. Houston was a role player too, not good enough offensively to be the best offensive player on his team. He was a shooting specialist and should have been used that way. This has been my stand from day 1 and yes, its not his fault. One more thing, you keep harping on me taking "personal shots" at him. Well I dont do and I dont like doing that and if I did I am ready to take them back. Give me an example.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 08-17-2005 07:25 AM]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
oohah
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8/17/2005  1:52 PM
2 paragraphs telling me I shouldnt base my opinion on highlights when I didnt.

That is how I post. Does it upset you?

Actually I was asking if you based your opinion on the highlights. Then I was suggesting this is not the best evidence on which to base your opinion or argument. Why? This is not the first time you brought up these highlights as evidence of his having played defense in 99 (And no other year.).
You will see he drove more to hoop than he did the following years. This is most probably the reason his FG% was so much higher than any other year. Same with his defense. He just didnt try as much on defense the other years. You will also have a lot of fun watching games from 1999. That was the last time the Knick team was good.

If you are telling me he played best in 99 I'll accept that. There could be many reasons including that 99 may have been his peak. Perhaps it was because the entire team was good that year and not solely because he was 'trying harder'. Which brings me to the crux: Why do you think he was trying harder in 99-00? Just the numbers? The contract, what?
I already said he was a good player. Even at his best though, the offense should never have run around him.

Yes you did say he was good, and you are right about the offense.
He is not the type of player that can help a team while being the focus of the offense.

I would not go that far. Especially when they traded Sprewell he had to be the focus and I think he helped the team. Who else was going to score? But in essence I agree he should not be the main option.
Yea, he put the ball in the basket but all he did was shoot which does not help your teammates.

I disagree. Scoring, especially when you are not a chucker, helps your entire team. That is "the goal".
Fans of Allan Houston insist that all he needed was a little support. Thats false. He should have been the guy providing that little support to a better offensive player.

I don't think all AH fans insist he just needed support. I assert that he should have been the support.
Not his fault and I never said it was.

You did say that exactly that, in another thread where we discussed this issue. I don't know how to find past threads in this forum without manually going through them, and I am not going to do that. What you wrote was to the effect of: "If you accept the $100,000,000 contract then you have an obligation to be a franchise player.".
Allan Houston reminds me of Glen Robinson who was better than him at putting the ball in the basketball.

Glenn Robinson is a pretty good comparison to AH, and I think Big Dog is actually a poorly judged player by many. Kendall Gill by all rights should have been as good as Ray Allen, but he is a true A-hole and he was inconsistent, unlike Houston.
All role players.

None of those guys are/were "role players" (Except Big Dog this year on SA.). They were full time players whose main "role" was to score. Big Dog is way more rounded than people give him credit for, he is however, a poor defensive player.

Glen "Big Dog" Robinson

Career
688 668 36.8 .459 .340 .820 1.5 4.6 6.1 2.7 1.20 .50 3.12 2.70 20.7
He was a shooting specialist and should have been used that way. This has been my stand from day 1 and yes, its not his fault.

I can't comment on your stand before this summer, but from what I have seen, you have considered it to be his fault.
One more thing, you keep harping on me taking "personal shots" at him. Well I dont do and I dont like doing that and if I did I am ready to take them back. Give me an example.

This would be easy with a search feature, my kingdom for a search feature!

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=11080
He wont retire. Houston has already said he is healthy to play next season. Look at articles a week before and after the new CBA. They are littered with Houston quotes that he is going to play net season. Either he was a lair then or he is not going to retire now.

Huh? Why is he liar? So is it if he can't play he is a liar or is it if he retires he is a liar? Why are you trying to characterize him as a liar at all? That is what I am talking about. The last time we discussed this topic is when you said he was stealing money from the Knicks. Why are you even denying it?

I am certainly not asking you to take them back, these are your feelings and you are entitled to them, I just disagree. I've learned in the past that taking things back is impossible, it can't be done. There is apologizing, but I am not asking you for that either. I just wanted to know why you feel so strongly negative about Houston. That's all.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Silverfuel
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8/17/2005  5:37 PM
Everything else before this I agree with.
What you wrote was to the effect of: "If you accept the $100,000,000 contract then you have an obligation to be a franchise player.".
No, I said management expects you to be a franchise player. I always knew he wasnt a franchise player.
http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=11080
He wont retire. Houston has already said he is healthy to play next season. Look at articles a week before and after the new CBA. They are littered with Houston quotes that he is going to play net season. Either he was a lair then or he is not going to retire now.
Huh? Why is he liar? So is it if he can't play he is a liar or is it if he retires he is a liar? Why are you trying to characterize him as a liar at all? That is what I am talking about. The last time we discussed this topic is when you said he was stealing money from the Knicks. Why are you even denying it?
He said he was healthy and will play for 2 years, now he says he will retire if he is not healthy. Isnt that contradictory leading someone to believe he was a liar then? He said this himself.

Houston's contract does not bother me as much. I think he earned most of it with his style of play in 1999. They overpaid but they always do so I am used to that. I think you have me confused with someone else. I dont have as much of a problem with his contract as I do with his style of play.
I am certainly not asking you to take them back, these are your feelings and you are entitled to them, I just disagree. I've learned in the past that taking things back is impossible, it can't be done.
I am entitled to my opinion and you have done nothing to prove to me that I should take anything I have said back.
There is apologizing, but I am not asking you for that either. I just wanted to know why you feel so strongly negative about Houston. That's all.
I have very strong negative feelings about Layden and Dolan and so do a lot of other people. I think the reason you only remember the Houston part is because there arent as many people that dislike him.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
oohah
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8/17/2005  7:07 PM
No, I said management expects you to be a franchise player. I always knew he wasnt a franchise player.

My kingdom for a search feature!
He said he was healthy and will play for 2 years, now he says he will retire if he is not healthy. Isnt that contradictory leading someone to believe he was a liar then? He said this himself.

Allan Houston is the son of a basketball coach. He's been playing basketball from day one. All the optimism you hear from him about his recovery and future is really him hoping against hope. He wants to play basketball again, it is his entire life. It's not easy to walk away from that. (Or in his case, limp away.) If he is guilty of anything it is wishful thinking. If he is lying to anyone, it is himself.

AH saying he will retire may be him finally coming to terms with reality. That may be contradictory to his previous wishful thinking, but it doesn't make him a liar! To say it does borders on absurd.
Houston's contract does not bother me as much. I think he earned most of it with his style of play in 1999. They overpaid but they always do so I am used to that. I think you have me confused with someone else. I dont have as much of a problem with his contract as I do with his style of play.

No, you did write it.
I am entitled to my opinion and you have done nothing to prove to me that I should take anything I have said back.

Of course you are entitled! And I wasn't trying to make you take anything back so I have no more to say about that, except you brought it up:

[quote]One more thing, you keep harping on me taking "personal shots" at him. Well I dont do and I dont like doing that and if I did I am ready to take them back. Give me an example.
[quote]I have very strong negative feelings about Layden and Dolan and so do a lot of other people. I think the reason you only remember the Houston part is because there arent as many people that dislike him.

It has nothing to do with "remembering". It is that I disagree. Trust me when I agree, I don't argue tooth and nail.

There is a good reason why not as many people dislike AH, he hasn't done anything to make people dislike him(For the most part.).

The entire Dolan clan is despicable for no other reason than their corporate policies which have scewed people throughout the years. They deserve what they get, though I am happy they helped block the West Side Stadium.

Layden was inept. He was a "terrible player", and from what I have seen, he is not the most personable guy in the world, IMO opinion he should be raked over the coals FOR HIS PERFORMANCE AS KNICKS GM, not for his personal life.

Silverfuel, please don't feel that I am trying to come down on you personally, I just have too much time on my hands in front of the computer right now! I think you are allright.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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8/17/2005  7:24 PM
Houston was a very good overall player. He had flaws, mainly on his defense and rebounding, over his career, but if you didn't see any improvement in his D in his final healthy years, then you just didn't watch, b/c there certainly was more of a commitment. Never anymore than decent overall, but you saw the commitment. If you magnify the flaws like that, and the fact that he never drove a lot, then of coarse you'll hate him, and if you blindly just look at the good, of course you'll fall madly in love with him. But if you take a realistic look at his game, you'll still realize he was a real good player and a boarderline all star during his prime years, who had basically no support during his final 2 healthy seasons.

To say he's a liar for saying he'll come back is kind out of line though. I think every athlete would have said that, and I'm sure YOU have lied in your life. And if you're gonna call him a liar, then you literally have to call Isiah the king of them all, b/c he has lied many times. You have to take that talk with a grain of salt.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Silverfuel
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8/17/2005  8:33 PM
Personal shot: no, bad franchise player for the Knicks: yes.
AH saying he will retire may be him finally coming to terms with reality. That may be contradictory to his previous wishful thinking, but it doesn't make him a liar! To say it does borders on absurd.
That wasnt wishful thinking. He said he will play for 2 more years which later spawned rumors of Detroit and NJ signing him. Now what he says is something totally different not even close to what he was saying 3-4 weeks ago. Either way, that post wasnt a personal shot! You made it sound like I fabricated an incident while I was merely stating an obvious. I dont think he will retire so he wont be a liar. If he does, then he didnt understand his own situation in July about playing 2 more years or lied for whatever reason!
No, you did write it.
I do have a problem with his contract cause it sucks but I never said it was his fault and I never said he was a thief. I am convinced you are confusing me with someone else.
It has nothing to do with "remembering". It is that I disagree. Trust me when I agree, I don't argue tooth and nail.
Actually it is about remembering. You are somehow convinced I have a problem with him as a person. That isnt disagreement
There is a good reason why not as many people dislike AH, he hasn't done anything to make people dislike him(For the most part.).
They dont share my view on how the Knicks should be run. Kinda similar for the people that dont like Isiah or didnt like Van Gundy.
The entire Dolan clan is despicable for no other reason than their corporate policies which have scewed people throughout the years. They deserve what they get, though I am happy they helped block the West Side Stadium.

Layden was inept. He was a "terrible player", and from what I have seen, he is not the most personable guy in the world, IMO opinion he should be raked over the coals FOR HIS PERFORMANCE AS KNICKS GM, not for his personal life.
This is how I feel about Houston. I think he was inept as a SG. Also, his performance as the best player on the Knicks was poor. I am in the majority about Layden/Dolan but not about Houston. Difference of opinion? Either way he wasnt even the best SG on the Knicks at the time. I wish Spree didnt have to play out of position.
Silverfuel, please don't feel that I am trying to come down on you personally, I just have too much time on my hands in front of the computer right now! I think you are allright.
I am not taking it personal and I am not sure why you think I would. If the Zotob virus hadnt hit, I would've been more prompt with my replies. I still have to bring back the iso boxes so I have a rough day at work tomorrow too. I will hopefully have more time on my hands after that. I think you are allright too.

If you remember my posts you will know I was the same with Layden before he got fired and even worse with Chaney and Keith Van Horn. Would you be convinced that I have a problem with Layden/Chaney as people or the way they ran the Knicks? I would rather you do the same with my Houston posts.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/17/2005  10:14 PM
If you remember my posts you will know I was the same with Layden before he got fired and even worse with Chaney and Keith Van Horn. Would you be convinced that I have a problem with Layden/Chaney as people or the way they ran the Knicks? I would rather you do the same with my Houston posts.

Wow, that took me back for a split second... Those topics got really ugly, nasty and bloody- as the archives still confirm.

Silver, I think oohah is relatively new to Ultimate. He wasn't around (under that name, at least) during the dark ages of LayDown, Done Chaney and Feet Van Corn. LOL All of them and Allan got aired out on a regular basis by some of the same ones most accused of being on the Kool-Aid now! All the things we wanted changed are either done already or still moving in that direction. The archives are the only testimony necessary. Now when Houston goes, we'll be able to just leave the past in the past and focus on now.


Those archives have some classic gems, especially some of the offseason topics.

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 08-17-2005 10:20 PM]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
rvhoss
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8/17/2005  10:26 PM
Allan was awesome..he could post up, rebound and most importantly, hit the big shot.

he's been missed. In my mind, he retired two years ago.

The last two year's the team didn't really exist.

Hats off H20. I think I may wear your jersey this year.
all kool aid all the time.
Silverfuel
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8/17/2005  10:33 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

Wow, that took me back for a split second... Those topics got really ugly, nasty and bloody- as the archives still confirm.

Silver, I think oohah is relatively new to Ultimate. He wasn't around (under that name, at least) during the dark ages of LayDown, Done Chaney and Feet Van Corn. LOL All of them and Allan got aired out on a regular basis by some of the same ones most accused of being on the Kool-Aid now! All the things we wanted changed are either done already or still moving in that direction. The archives are the only testimony necessary. Now when Houston goes, we'll be able to just leave the past in the past and focus on now.


Those archives have some classic gems, especially some of the offseason topics.
Man did they get nasty! Pages upon pages. I remember the **** hit the ceiling after that Spree trade. Layden and Dolan really ruined anything slightly good about the Knicks from the 90's. Those days are fun to remember though. I remember some nasty threads about Houston last season after he decided to not go through surgery. Here we are again with nasty Houston threads and its never going to end. Next year it will be someone else, hopefully not the same crap with Houston! This has dragged long enough. It needs closure.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
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