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VEEEEERY Interesting article on perimeter defense...
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simrud
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8/4/2005  4:05 PM
This guys's research is not based just on +/-, if you go to his website, he does not explain his stuff outright (prolly does want to publish it) but he takes a lot of things into consideration, and its all stat based.

So for those saying that he is somehow biased its really a non-issue, his method could be wrong but how is he supposed to be biased when he is crunchign numbers togetehr with a bunch of formulas. Reading his explanation would be nice before goign ahead and judging him negatively just because he did not rate Marbury in his top 5.

Also I think some missed that this is a top 5 defense list, not top 5 PG overal list.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
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crzymdups
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8/4/2005  4:33 PM
Posted by simrud:

This guys's research is not based just on +/-, if you go to his website, he does not explain his stuff outright (prolly does want to publish it) but he takes a lot of things into consideration, and its all stat based.

agreed. it will be interesting to read the full article.
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Bonn1997
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8/4/2005  5:50 PM
Also interesting for those dogging Jamal and Marbs on D: they're nowhere to be found on the "worst" list at SG or PG. Nor is Q.
The part about Marbury and Q does not surprise me. Any objective analysis I've ever seen shows that they're both average defenders who simply receive unwarranted criticism.
Knight
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8/4/2005  6:02 PM
The question is: Did we really need this study to know who is a good defender or not? No. It's just a guy who has too much time and too many numbers on his hands. He admits that stats don't tell the whole story--it's just his hobby to do this kind of stuff, I don't think it matters a great deal but it's interesting to see the results.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
simrud
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8/4/2005  10:31 PM
I enjoyed reading his web page and the ratings were interesting. I see nothign wrong with him doing what he did, and certainly nothing wrong with having somebody apply mathematical analysis to objective opinions.

I mean we all know Kidd is a good defender, but the fact that an involved fomula based process proves it only bodes well for the analysis method. It gives more weight to the claim that Rahim is the worst defensive big men in the league.

For instance I knew he was not a good defender, but I did not think he was all the way down in the lower tier of players defensively.

I would very much like to see the whole list, with all signifant players of the NBA for comparisons sake.

Walker is one guy I would very much like too see in comparison to other guys, other convroverisial players like Francis, Brarron Davis, Zack Randolph, maybe an analysis of Jordans last two years in the league with the Wizards and how he compared to the leage at 40+ years old.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Bonn1997
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8/4/2005  10:48 PM
In Brown we trust.
How about in Bonn we trust? (Sorry, I'm sleepy)
Killa4luv
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8/4/2005  11:43 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

Funny how I just happened to mention both Eric Snow and Earl Watson...
Yeah, its also funny how you just mentioned Matt Harpring and he's the 2nd worst SF on the list!!!!!

Its also funny how you cxonstantly talk about how bad Marb's and Craw are and neither of them made it.
Bonn1997
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8/5/2005  12:41 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by bobs3304:

Funny how I just happened to mention both Eric Snow and Earl Watson...
Yeah, its also funny how you just mentioned Matt Harpring and he's the 2nd worst SF on the list!!!!!

Its also funny how you cxonstantly talk about how bad Marb's and Craw are and neither of them made it.
I've always thought Harpring was an unimpressive athlete
tomverve
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8/5/2005  1:53 AM
Posted by Knight:

The question is: Did we really need this study to know who is a good defender or not? No. It's just a guy who has too much time and too many numbers on his hands. He admits that stats don't tell the whole story--it's just his hobby to do this kind of stuff, I don't think it matters a great deal but it's interesting to see the results.

The obvious advantage of using statistics is that it gives us an objective and quantified way to understand players' strengths and weaknesses. Stats can't give us every last detail, and every method for ranking players along certain metrics probably has some sort of flaw or another-- they're not perfect. But for the things they measure, they are much, much more reliable than subjective opinions. Subjective judgments are made by averaging out numerous observed details over time, but the human brain is prone to making errors in the process-- inappropriately weighting some details as more or less important than they should be, completely missing or forgetting other details, distorting still other details based on tacit, subconscious expectations and biases that might not be valid-- and on and on and on. Statistical analysis of the numbers does not suffer from these problems.

As for the list Rosenbaum produced, no, you probably didn't need anyone to tell you that Kidd is among the best PG defenders. But did you need this study to learn that Raja Bell is in fact an extremely overrated defensive player? I bet my bottom dollar that you did.
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bobs3304
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8/5/2005  7:50 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by bobs3304:

Funny how I just happened to mention both Eric Snow and Earl Watson...
Yeah, its also funny how you just mentioned Matt Harpring and he's the 2nd worst SF on the list!!!!!

Its also funny how you cxonstantly talk about how bad Marb's and Craw are and neither of them made it.


Again, have you seen the entire list?

How do you know where they're positioned?

Exactly.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Knight
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8/5/2005  10:18 AM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by Knight:

The question is: Did we really need this study to know who is a good defender or not? No. It's just a guy who has too much time and too many numbers on his hands. He admits that stats don't tell the whole story--it's just his hobby to do this kind of stuff, I don't think it matters a great deal but it's interesting to see the results.

The obvious advantage of using statistics is that it gives us an objective and quantified way to understand players' strengths and weaknesses. Stats can't give us every last detail, and every method for ranking players along certain metrics probably has some sort of flaw or another-- they're not perfect. But for the things they measure, they are much, much more reliable than subjective opinions. Subjective judgments are made by averaging out numerous observed details over time, but the human brain is prone to making errors in the process-- inappropriately weighting some details as more or less important than they should be, completely missing or forgetting other details, distorting still other details based on tacit, subconscious expectations and biases that might not be valid-- and on and on and on. Statistical analysis of the numbers does not suffer from these problems.

As for the list Rosenbaum produced, no, you probably didn't need anyone to tell you that Kidd is among the best PG defenders. But did you need this study to learn that Raja Bell is in fact an extremely overrated defensive player? I bet my bottom dollar that you did.

Statistics are not objective: the researcher must ALWAYS CHOOSE WHICH STATISTICS HE BELIEVES ARE RELEVANT and this involves the discretion of the researcher. But this is a Knicks forum and I won't debate the limitations of science here.

[Edited by - Knight on 08/05/2005 10:19:19]
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Killa4luv
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8/5/2005  10:25 AM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by bobs3304:

Funny how I just happened to mention both Eric Snow and Earl Watson...
Yeah, its also funny how you just mentioned Matt Harpring and he's the 2nd worst SF on the list!!!!!

Its also funny how you cxonstantly talk about how bad Marb's and Craw are and neither of them made it.


Again, have you seen the entire list?

How do you know where they're positioned?

Exactly.
well it says the bottom 5 sf's from worst to best and being that he is 2nd from the top that makes him the 2nd worst. Why again would I need to see the entire list to know this?

bobs3304
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8/5/2005  10:28 AM
How do you know he's not 6th worst?


Again....you don't. So you can't really make an arguement one way or the other.

The fact that we're celebrating over Marbury and Crawford not being among the WORST defenders in the league is, quite frankly, just sad.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
crzymdups
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8/8/2005  12:38 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

How do you know he's not 6th worst?


Again....you don't. So you can't really make an arguement one way or the other.

The fact that we're celebrating over Marbury and Crawford not being among the WORST defenders in the league is, quite frankly, just sad.

I'm not celebrating, merely pointing out that Crawford, Marbury, Billups and Hamilton are not in the top 10 worst or top 10 best defenders at their position - so maybe Craw and Marbury aren't THAT far away from Rip and Chauncey in terms of being able to make an improvement with Larry.

Here's a more complete version of the article of 82games:
http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm
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toodarkmark
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8/8/2005  1:02 PM
These statistics also dont take into account who is covering who. Some of the less minute guys may have better ratings, but they're in the game playing other guys who don't get many minutes, and don't score often.

There's alot of psychology and ambition involved in playing defense. I think it's a rational argument to say Quentin, Stephon and Jamal have the capability to play good defense if they are put into a good defensive system. Chauncy was definitly not considered a great defender when going over to Detroit.

I think our backcourt can do very well to trap, and to cover the passing lanes. I mean they are athletes and sometimes all it takes is the right teacher to bring it out of them.
I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
VEEEEERY Interesting article on perimeter defense...

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