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We need a shooting guard who can shoot
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bobs3304
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8/1/2005  12:28 PM
Crawford, like Darius,is all flash and no substance.


He's good if you like exciting players, but I could care less. If we're not making the playoffs, we're getting worse, not better.

You don't rebuild without cap flexibility. It's pretty simple. So our goal then must be to win, and you don't win without substance. At least Isiah drafted NBA-ready players this year. I would've flipped if he had taken Bynum. Maybe if we were the friggin Hawks...but we're not.

I'll be fair though. I am def. willing to see what Brown can do with Jamal in training camp and up until the beginning of the season. But I'm sick of flirting with "Potential". It's stupid, and look what happened to the Cavs (Miles) and Wizards (Kwame).

Jamal is a bit more consistent scoring-wise than those 2, but then again, he was given nearly 40 MPG last season. So there's no telling what kind of player he REALLY is. Although just the humongous doubt about him doesn't sit well with me.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
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fishmike
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8/1/2005  12:30 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

I'll ****in tell you why. One word:

K-W-A-M-E.

"P" players always show flashes of brilliance, and then resort back to their old ways. It's a trend. Tim Thomas is yet another example, and I love how Knick fans on this board actually have the audacity to think TT will be anything other than his usual self. Come to think of it, didn't he ALSO "improve" late in the season?
TT didnt improve.. maybe staticially, but everyone wanted his minutes cut for Ariza. I think the TT people wanted was the one that played well at the end of 04. 15/4.5 on 48% give or take. Nobody is waiting for TT to get "better."
I could care less about Kwame. I'm letting some HS kid that doesnt know how to do laundry or use a microwave dictate how I evaluate talent or potenial. Kwame had 2-3 break out games. Crawford's had breakout months, and he's never been labeled as lazy.

What does TT have anything to do with this discussion, and show me one thread on this board where "people on this board" are looking for great things from TT this upcoming season.

Hey boobs... arent you the same guy that keeps saying Jerome JAmes will do more than he has in the past? MAybe I'm wrong on that last part... feel free to correct me. Foul language isnt needed
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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8/1/2005  12:38 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

Crawford, like Darius,is all flash and no substance.


You don't rebuild without cap flexibility. It's pretty simple. So our goal then must be to win, and you don't win without substance. At least Isiah drafted NBA-ready players this year. I would've flipped if he had taken Bynum. Maybe if we were the friggin Hawks...but we're not.

See, that argument is just ridiculous. You can't say that since you're over the cap you can't rebuild by adding youth. That's the cycle this team was on since the early 90s. It's a deteriorating cycle that eventually has to reach end game. You trade Spree for KVH because Spree's value is down because he's older. There's no way to keep a competitive base without adding new talent.

The Pacers are plenty over the cap, but they had no problem adding Tinsley and Granger through the draft. The Mavs have been over the cap for many years, but they still added three of the most important pieces (Marquis, Howard and Harris) through the draft. The Kings went from one of the elite teams in the league to just another struggling playoff team becasue they DIDNT rebuild through the draft. The Spurs have stayed on top ever since they got Duncan by adding two stars in the draft (Parker and Manu).

Cap flexibility is a buzz word. The Knicks have two expiring deals to use this trade deadline - how is that not flexibility? No matter what your cap situation is, going with youth is almost always smarter. And it's the only way to get out of this cycle that Grunfeld started, Layden turned into Defcon 5 and Zeke was guilty of playing into as well. The only way out is through the youth. Get some quality youth, let Houston's deal go away, let Mo T, JYD, Timmy and Penny leave (or trade Timmy and Penny for more talent) - and suddenly this team is down to about $50 million again - right at the cap. To say you can't rebuild when you're over the cap is insane. The situation is only going to keep getting worse if you DONT rebuild.
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bobs3304
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8/1/2005  2:07 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Hey boobs... arent you the same guy that keeps saying Jerome JAmes will do more than he has in the past? MAybe I'm wrong on that last part... feel free to correct me. Foul language isnt needed



No....
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
djsunyc
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8/1/2005  2:09 PM
Posted by bigpimpin:

not FOREVER like P diddy but always and FOREVER like the group Heatwave. but y'all wouldn't know nothing about that

always and forever...
(damn girl, you're so warm, like a buttermilk biscuit)

each moment with you...
(you're so comfy, like my hushpuppies)

it's like a dream to me...

the question is WHAT DO YOU KNOW 'BOUT THAT?!?!?
bobs3304
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8/1/2005  2:20 PM
Crzy -

I meant flexability in general. Part of that does involve the potential to have CAP flexability in the future. Crawford making upwards of 10 Million (in the last year of his contract), doesn't help.

Part of the problem is Isiah. He talks smooth, but he's just bad with money. Dallas has always drafted well and been able to bring in real talent. Tim Thomas is not what I consider real talent. Crawford has talent, no doubting that, but just like Al Harrington, he'd best be served not having to play second fiddle to a Stephon Marbury. He has the "potential" to put up even better numbers with a low-key team like Atlanta. Crawford needs freedom to do what he does best. Larry is one of the most strict coaches in the league, right after Jerry Sloan. Take away Jamal's crossover and incessant dribbling to break down the defense, and what do you have?

To say that he can just become a good defender and efficient shooter under Brown is wishful thinking. Not saying it def. WON'T happen, but there comes a time when potential alone just isn't enough. Crawford scores, sure, but that's the only thing we DON'T need.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
jaydh
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8/1/2005  2:20 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

we should load up on potential - Darius, Kwame, Curry, Crawford...

actually i would love to have all 4...
bobs3304
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8/1/2005  2:23 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by bobs3304:

we should load up on potential - Darius, Kwame, Curry, Crawford...

actually i would love to have all 4...


then you must be Billy Knight
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
jaydh
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8/1/2005  2:24 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by bobs3304:

we should load up on potential - Darius, Kwame, Curry, Crawford...

actually i would love to have all 4...


then you must be Billy Knight

any rebuilding team would love to have those 4 i'm sure.
fishmike
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8/1/2005  2:41 PM
To say that he can just become a good defender and efficient shooter under Brown is wishful thinking. Not saying it def. WON'T happen, but there comes a time when potential alone just isn't enough. Crawford scores, sure, but that's the only thing we DON'T need.
we have already seen him be an effecient shooter. I'm not talking 1 game in Feb against the Hawks, I'm talking solid 15-20 game stretchs. Also, he doesnt just score, he gets a fair amount of steals, he's shown he can pressure the ball and he's an excellent playmaker.

Let me write it again:
Jamal in April (12 games)
22 points, 4.5 assists on 42.5 FG%
The month before (13 games) he had a terrible month shooting 36% 12ppg but had 6 assists a game as he was clearly trying to create more.

Now if there is some reason I should just totally discard these games for whatever reason I will, just let me know what that reason is. I've seen him play enough quality BB to say he could be a very good player on a winning team, on both ends of the floor.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
bobs3304
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8/1/2005  2:46 PM
I'm gonna hold you to that
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
crzymdups
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8/1/2005  2:54 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

Crzy -

I meant flexability in general. Part of that does involve the potential to have CAP flexability in the future. Crawford making upwards of 10 Million (in the last year of his contract), doesn't help.

Part of the problem is Isiah. He talks smooth, but he's just bad with money. Dallas has always drafted well and been able to bring in real talent. Tim Thomas is not what I consider real talent. Crawford has talent, no doubting that, but just like Al Harrington, he'd best be served not having to play second fiddle to a Stephon Marbury. He has the "potential" to put up even better numbers with a low-key team like Atlanta. Crawford needs freedom to do what he does best. Larry is one of the most strict coaches in the league, right after Jerry Sloan. Take away Jamal's crossover and incessant dribbling to break down the defense, and what do you have?

To say that he can just become a good defender and efficient shooter under Brown is wishful thinking. Not saying it def. WON'T happen, but there comes a time when potential alone just isn't enough. Crawford scores, sure, but that's the only thing we DON'T need.

Crawford is also a fantastic playmaker - which I contend Marbury NEEDS next to him, remember the days when Marbs was double-teamed at half court? Didn't happen once last season, and surprise, surprise, Marbs had his best season - that was the MAIN reason I was begging for Craw last summer. For all the people saying Marbury and Craw had no chemistry, how do you explain Marbury's best season? Chemistry isn't born in a day, but certainly, Marbury putting up 22 and 8 on 47%(!!!) shooting is reason to believe that Craw helped his game.

Craw is also a decent ballhawk, and as 82games shows, he was a better defender last year than Hughes was two years ago. Does that mean that he can become a GREAT defender? No. But as Fish has said, no one thought Rip Hamilton could be a DECENT defender, and now he's above average. Craw is built EXACTLY like Hamilton. There's no reason he can't play a more structured game on D and offense. Craw has shown an ability to be coached, and again as Fish pointed out, he had a great April. The part of the season that told me the most about Craw was immediately after the all-star break after the two stupid-ass trades (okay, one decent, one awful) - Herb started posting TT and MoT a lot and asked Craw to reel in his shot selection and become more of a distributor. Craw did just that. He had several games where he had like 9pts and 8ast or 10pts and 11ast. That, to me, shows an ability to be coached and listen to ways to improve his game. Larry is a legendary teacher of defense. If anyone can get Craw to play D, it's Larry. Craw has the tools. Sure, he's shown flash, but he's also shown some amazing tools AND an ability to tailor those tools to those around him. And again, most importantly to me, he's freed Marbury from double teams at half court. This team needs another distributor for Marbury to be effective. I still say Craw can be that guy.

I've been saying for months now that Craw and Marbury have EXTREMELY similar games and builds to that of Chauncey and Rip. Chauncey and Rip were once thought of as flashy players who didn't "play the right way" - until they met a certain coach. Marbury and Craw are good guys, characterizing them as bad guy, selfish stars is wrong. They take losing hard and will be willing to try to learn. Whether they can learn is another question, but I think with their immense physical talents and their desire they stand a good chance.

Also, Crawford doesn't make $10 million until the final year of his deal, which is an option year. His contract is pretty much identical to Q, except for the option year. Cap flexibility to me means not being locked into crappy players long term. Obviously, Zeke is responsible for adding Penny, Tim, Rose, Taylor and JYD. They're somewhat useful. They're contracts are running out, and let's remember that the contracts of Eisley, Spoon, KVH, etc run just as long, if not longer. I give Zeke a pass on the cap stuff until this deadline. If he adds a stupid deal or somethign, I'll be right there with you proclaiming his idiocy. But, really, the only time he's added a huge amount of salary to the cap was the Marbury deal and where the hell would this team and it's fans be without Marbury? The Marbury move was necessary to get fans to care again. I'd do that move again.
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bobs3304
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8/1/2005  2:58 PM
good read, but like i said -- I'm personally holding you to it.


DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
crzymdups
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8/1/2005  3:01 PM
okay. I just think the big problems for this team are going to come in the front court. Can Sweetney stay on the floor? Can Frye get PT under Brown? Can James stay on the floor? Is Lee a 3 or a 4? Is Malik Rose going to play 35 minutes a game? (god, I hope not).
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bobs3304
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8/1/2005  3:05 PM
i think it's suffice to say, this team has ALOTTA question marks.




[Edited by - bobs3304 on 08/01/2005 15:05:16]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
crzymdups
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8/1/2005  3:09 PM
no doubt. Funny thing with Brown teams is that they have a habit of answering the questions though. I do think this team will see at least two trades by Feb, and hopefully the front court will make more sense by then. But, as for the back court, what's wrong with having four capable guys - one of whom can slide to the 3.
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fishmike
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8/1/2005  3:14 PM
crzymdups, that might be one of the most well thought out and written posts I have ever read. Nice job.

I think what it comes down to is this: we are a 33 win team. Its not just who goes and who stays, but who can get better and who cant. I dont think Nazr was going to get much better. He's athletic and could do some nice things but he had bad hands simply lacked BB IQ among other things. I mention Nazr because I think the flip side is Crawford, who's shown he can adapt, who's shown he's versatile and can do different things at different times. To me at 25 with a reasonable contract thats worth keeping and working on. Also like crzymdups mentioned the effect on Marbury's game and ability to take pressure off him is undeniable.

We couldnt close games and we never established anything down low, but clearly there were some things in the backcourt worth building on.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
franco12
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8/1/2005  3:17 PM
Posted by crzymdups:


Crawford is also a fantastic playmaker - which I contend Marbury NEEDS next to him, remember the days when Marbs was double-teamed at half court? Didn't happen once last season, and surprise, surprise, Marbs had his best season - that was the MAIN reason I was begging for Craw last summer. For all the people saying Marbury and Craw had no chemistry, how do you explain Marbury's best season? Chemistry isn't born in a day, but certainly, Marbury putting up 22 and 8 on 47%(!!!) shooting is reason to believe that Craw helped his game.

The reason Marbury got doubled was that as a team, the knicks have been pretty bad at knowing how to pass the ball- and its been this way for a while.

I was in agreement about adding Crawford to help break the pressure, but I think you could get by if you could get this team to learn how to dribble and when to pass.

Crawford is streaky. If he's not on from outside, he could be alone on the court and not be able to hit the rim.

When he's on, he could have all five guys draped over him, and he'll swish 3s all game long.

He's streaky. I think I want a legit outside presence- doesn't have to come from the 2. It could be a 3, or 4- I know we have too many 4s, but I would have loved to have gotten Donyell Marshall.

Just take a look at the top 3pt % shooters

http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersFG3PQuery.html?topic=0&stat=9

Out of 50 players, only Tim Thomas is there for the knicks- and I don't think anyone here wants to rely on TT for anything except maybe to be traded.

Now, if you look at most attempted or made, sure, Q & Craw show up.

That shooting a lot is not shooting well.
bobs3304
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8/1/2005  3:18 PM
Posted by fishmike:

crzymdups, that might be one of the most well thought out and written posts I have ever read. Nice job.

I think what it comes down to is this: we are a 33 win team. Its not just who goes and who stays, but who can get better and who cant. I dont think Nazr was going to get much better. He's athletic and could do some nice things but he had bad hands simply lacked BB IQ among other things. I mention Nazr because I think the flip side is Crawford, who's shown he can adapt, who's shown he's versatile and can do different things at different times. To me at 25 with a reasonable contract thats worth keeping and working on. Also like crzymdups mentioned the effect on Marbury's game and ability to take pressure off him is undeniable.

We couldnt close games and we never established anything down low, but clearly there were some things in the backcourt worth building on.

I'd say his post was well-though out, but let's not go overboard here. I've put in good time with some of my posts, and never get acilaides(SP?) b/c my point of view is differnt from 75 % of most of you.

You like Crawford so of course you'd agree with Crzy. I don't particularly care for him, so no matter how well-though out a post I write, why would you acknowledge it?

Again, Crawford's talent - undeniable. Potential - undeniable. The type of backcourt player you want on a playoff-bound (hopefully) team -- not so much.

If you're not taking a step forward, you're taking one backwards.

Some of you seem perfectly content going nowhere...

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 08/01/2005 15:20:17]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
rvhoss
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8/1/2005  3:42 PM
This is the best of them all.

I think Lee is going to establish himself as a solid second team option. Rose will end up starting with Frye coming off the bench.

Eventually, Rose's playing time will shrink as his demands to start grow (he did it under Brown's best man in San Antonio)...there have been numerous reports of TT playing some PF, with pretty much means, 2 pf's are gone by the trading deadline and lee will be the new LB favorite back up PF and Frye will be center eventually taking over for James as the starter (which will be no biggie).

The SF position, IMHO, is the most dicey of them all...while we have a boatload of PF's, I'm pretty sure Brown will have his two favs and move on from there.

At the 3 we have 3.5 players looking for time. TT (the starter IMHO), Ariza (the energetic incumbant off the bench) and Q who slides there when we need offense and TT just isn't cutting it.

I don't see lee playing ANY SF this first year with brown. He just doesn't like bigs playing the 3 (atleast, off the top of my head anyway).

The fun and gun team (no defense, just scoring, scoring, scoring) IMHO? Marbs, Craw, Q, TT, Frye. I know it sounds crazy, but it's been said time and time again, TT is 6 freakin 10 and does have a post up game (you have to admit it...he does).

The good thing about TT is that you pretty much know in the first 3 minutes if he's gonna go off on one of his games...the last two months of the season he posted 7 20 point games.

He averaged 14 points on 48% shooting to end the season.

I trust brown's short hook to keep him hovering ABOVE those averages (when he plays), though, do we even care if he gets the hook...that just means more Ariza and Q at the SF...so, win win in my mind.

I think MoT and Rose will rise to the occassion. I LOVE sweets, but he just doesn't seem to mesh with the team IMHO.

But, if he does step up, that's even MORE GRAVY!

I think Brown will rotate his PF's until one is effective, whether we are in need of scoring (MoT, Sweets) or Defense (JYD, Rose) or just some offensive aggressiveness (Lee), I think the 4 will most definitely be sorted out by January.
Posted by crzymdups:

okay. I just think the big problems for this team are going to come in the front court. Can Sweetney stay on the floor? Can Frye get PT under Brown? Can James stay on the floor? Is Lee a 3 or a 4? Is Malik Rose going to play 35 minutes a game? (god, I hope not).

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08/01/2005 15:42:51]
all kool aid all the time.
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