Posted by bobs3304:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

Why aren't Marbury & Crawford cappable of being good defenders???

I'm not even gonna justify that with an answer.

lol, i'll do it, well since skiles couldnt get through to crawford, how can larry... lol!!!

Posted by newyorknewyork:

Why aren't Marbury & Crawford cappable of being good defenders???

they are. Anyone will to work hard and be coached can become good defenders. I have used a couple of examples, so let me use the same ones again. Hughes, Rip Hamilton, Billups were all regarded as below average defenders their first few years in the league. All have become good or great defenders, two of them with Larry Brown, the other Hughes, was dumped by Larry B. You just dont know until the coach works with them. We saw drastic improvement in Crawford as the season went on.

Everyone is capable of playing defense. It's the one aspect of the game that everyone should be able to do. Jamal and Steph are plenty capable. They just haven't commited to defending consistently over their careers. It's possible that they could re-invent themselves. They wouldn't be the first players to make a commitment and improve defensively midway through their careers. It's been done before.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

Why aren't Marbury & Crawford cappable of being good defenders???

they are. Anyone will to work hard and be coached can become good defenders. I have used a couple of examples, so let me use the same ones again. Hughes, Rip Hamilton, Billups were all regarded as below average defenders their first few years in the league. All have become good or great defenders, two of them with Larry Brown, the other Hughes, was dumped by Larry B. You just dont know until the coach works with them. We saw drastic improvement in Crawford as the season went on.

What the **** are you talkin about?

Billups has ALWAYS been known as an average defender BEFORE Brown coached him.

Rip was a below average defender, but he was an EFFICIENT scorer and played without the ball.

Hughes never had the luxury of having a good coach like Skiles. And for all you that think Skiles is a less than stellar coach...he was one of the candidates for COY. You can't be that and NOT be good.

Oh, and for your information...Hughes has averaged close to 2 steals per game throughout most of his career. He's gotten BETTER every season. He's shown an ability to play D. When has Crawford ever done that? Crawford NEVER showed an affinity for being able to guard bigger SG's, and even against PG's, he's still a liability.

Please don't just throw around facts without backing them up.

Posted by bobs3304:

Oh, and for your information...Hughes has averaged close to 2 steals per game throughout most of his career. He's gotten BETTER every season. He's shown an ability to play D. When has Crawford ever done that? Crawford NEVER showed an affinity for being able to guard bigger SG's, and even against PG's, he's still a liability.

Please don't just throw around facts without backing them up.

Is it just me, or do high steals not necessarily equate to great defense? Getting a lot of steals has more to do with quickness and anticipation. It says nothing about your ability to play someone man to man or defend the post up. A lot of guys get beat going for steals and end up leaving their man wide open for easy shots. By the way, Steph and Jamal led the Knicks in steals last season. They were 9th and 16th amongst guards in the league respectively.

Posted by eViL:


Is it just me, or do high steals not necessarily equate to great defense? Getting a lot of steals has more to do with quickness and anticipation. It says nothing about your ability to play someone man to man or defend the post up. A lot of guys get beat going for steals and end up leaving their man wide open for easy shots. By the way, Steph and Jamal led the Knicks in steals last season. They were 9th and 16th amongst guards in the league respectively.

You're def. right about that. But I remember watching Hughes with GS, and always thought he played average man-to-man defense. He was at the very least more aggressive then I've ever seen Crawford be. While Jamal always struck me as having tons of offensive talent, he's lacking in other areas like his ability to adjust and adapt to the team.

Posted by gunsnewing:


Kwame is 23

He's played 4 whole seasons in the league.

Posted by bobs3304:

You know, there's a trend of players like Stevie Franchise, Jamal, Marbury, and others that are terrific talents but have only played 1 year of college ball and never really got around to the team concept.

It's sad too. B/c these guys have SO much talent, but they just don't know per say what to do to win. In a way, they are selfish, but that's what happens when you have all the talent in the world and no intangibles - which most players learn in college.

Marbury's gonna be a handful for Brown alone. And you want Crawford in the mix too??

Hey, we might as well trade for Kwame, Darius, Kandi-man, among others. There comes a time when you need a team of no-nonsense, low-liability players. Can we really keep relying on potential?

I don't think so. Brown didn't in Philly or Detroit (aka Darko not playing), and I don't think that's gonna stop in NY.

[Edited by - BOBS3304 on 07/31/2005 15:23:59]

exactly and you can add Tim Thomas, darius & Kwameto that list. Some guys like lebron, kobe, Amare don't need college to learn to play basketball the right way but these guys with low IQs who waste away their talents in high school by making their stats look good, dunking over everyone and shooting 3's instead of learning team ball and how to impact the entire team and win. Its a shame, some guys really need to go to school and work on the fundamentals

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/31/2005 15:30:18]

there are no facts, its your opinion vs. mine
steals, just like blocks are a poor measure of a player's ability to defend. Marcus Camby had 4 blocks in one of his first 2 years but he often got abused by whoever he was defending.

I say Larry Hughes was a lousy defender because when I watched him he didnt guard.

I say Billups was average at best because until his LAST year in Minn he didnt guard. He was an undersized SG that didnt run an offense and didnt look quick enough to defend opposing PGs.

If your hung up on stats that mean nothing (maybe you dont actually watch the players, I dont know) Crawford and Marbury had more steals than Billups and rip Hamilton last year. Now thats a fact. I thought we were talking about hoops, but if all you want is facts there's one for you

Posted by fishmike:

there are no facts, its your opinion vs. mine
steals, just like blocks are a poor measure of a player's ability to defend. Marcus Camby had 4 blocks in one of his first 2 years but he often got abused by whoever he was defending.

I say Larry Hughes was a lousy defender because when I watched him he didnt guard.

I say Billups was average at best because until his LAST year in Minn he didnt guard. He was an undersized SG that didnt run an offense and didnt look quick enough to defend opposing PGs.

If your hung up on stats that mean nothing (maybe you dont actually watch the players, I dont know) Crawford and Marbury had more steals than Billups and rip Hamilton last year. Now thats a fact. I thought we were talking about hoops, but if all you want is facts there's one for you

maybe you need glasses. i don't know. but if you scroll up buddy, I already said you were absolutely right about that. only problem is that no matter how you slice it, Hughes has always been and will continue to be a better defender than Crawford (by quite a margin).

you know what, I'm done with these Crawford arguements. I guess every Knick fan on this board with the exception of me and a few others would rather bank on talent and potential as opposed to pure substance.

In fact, I bet most of you would rather LOSE and pile up on talent and potential rather than bring in players that know how to win.

granted, Larry had AI in Philly and Billups in Detroit, but he surrounded them more or less with players from whom you KNOW what you're getting night in and night out. My guess is that he will continue to ask for players like that here.

The fact that he said Marbury can play the 2 "occasionally" means he'll be playing the point most of the time. And THAT means that Crawford, if he stays, would have to play the off-guard position. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

To make the playoffs, Larry will have to get Marbury to buy into his system, and surround him with players that know how to get the job done, pure and simple. Players that are encouragle and have shown that they can improve year after year will benefit from Brown. Sweets, Ariza, Lee, Nate...those are the players that will benefit the most.

To be able to shoot consistently is a skill, and it's not something a coach can really a fix. You have to fix that YOURSELF. Larry can tell Craw to stop shooting, to stop that crossover flashy bull****, but then what does Crawford offer to us? Without having the green light to do what he does best, he's useless. That's why he needs to be traded, and preferably for a guy like Eric Snow, or David Wesley, or Matt Harpring (along with a pick)...guys that make up in intangibles and a winning attitude what they lack in talent...