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Time to give I.T. Props
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djsunyc
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7/26/2005  10:47 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The plan didn't change; it just took some people a long time to figure it out.

I guess that's your story and you're sticking to it. Sure, let's just ignore all of the contradictory quotes from Isiah saying one thing and now doing another. Like when he said 18 months ago that you couldn't rebuild in NY (check my sig) and now he quoted saying that he's in rebuilding mode. But hey, why accept the truth when you can spin it into something else.

action speaks louder than words. so he can spin spin spin spin spin all he wants but at the end of the day, it's the players and the record. so, in your case, the anti-isiah camp has many things to fall back on b/c of the team's record and cap situation. BUT, the pro-isiah camp sees a future but can't really say jack UNTIL it happens. so isles, you can say what you usually do and nbbody can refute it. everyone laughs at it, but nobody can legitimately refute it. but at the end of the day, we won't know anything for another year or so.
AUTOADVERT
Rich
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7/26/2005  10:49 PM
Not yet.
Nalod
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7/26/2005  10:50 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by islesfan:

I guess it's never too early to give Isiah his props or his due like in last weeks thread. But it's always way too early to criticize him because 18 months, 4 head coaches and 2 drastically different plans just isn't enough for some people.

I have no problem with a GM who realizes he was wrong by giving into theimmediate playoff pressure of NY. I have a problem with Layden signing guys to millions and trying to rip other teams off and then settling for Spoon & KVH and talking about how much he likes the team and its character guys!

I think using Layden as your measuring stick serverly short changes ones expectations. The layden era sucked, but holding Isiah to that standard is way too easy. We must go far and above the brief Layden era.

Isiah is not above having critic just cus he is better than layden!

We expect more than that!
islesfan
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7/26/2005  10:59 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by islesfan:

I guess it's never too early to give Isiah his props or his due like in last weeks thread. But it's always way too early to criticize him because 18 months, 4 head coaches and 2 drastically different plans just isn't enough for some people.

I have no problem with a GM who realizes he was wrong by giving into theimmediate playoff pressure of NY. I have a problem with Layden signing guys to millions and trying to rip other teams off and then settling for Spoon & KVH and talking about how much he likes the team and its character guys!

I think using Layden as your measuring stick serverly short changes ones expectations. The layden era sucked, but holding Isiah to that standard is way too easy. We must go far and above the brief Layden era.

Isiah is not above having critic just cus he is better than layden!

We expect more than that!

Yeah, I don't understand what Layden has to do with this. I don't remember anybody saying that Layden did a great job, didn't deserve to lose his job or that they wished that he was still here. So why do people constantly bring him up whenever anybody deservedly criticizes Isiah?

It's a classic rationalization, trying to make one thing appear better than it really is because it's obviously better than something even worse. Having 1 year to live instead of 6 months is better but is it really a good thing on its own? Of course not but if you rationalize it that way then I guess it is better but that's not the point.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
gunsnewing
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7/26/2005  11:01 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by islesfan:

I guess it's never too early to give Isiah his props or his due like in last weeks thread. But it's always way too early to criticize him because 18 months, 4 head coaches and 2 drastically different plans just isn't enough for some people.

I have no problem with a GM who realizes he was wrong by giving into theimmediate playoff pressure of NY. I have a problem with Layden signing guys to millions and trying to rip other teams off and then settling for Spoon & KVH and talking about how much he likes the team and its character guys!

I think using Layden as your measuring stick serverly short changes ones expectations. The layden era sucked, but holding Isiah to that standard is way too easy. We must go far and above the brief Layden era.

Isiah is not above having critic just cus he is better than layden!

We expect more than that!

Yeah, I don't understand what Layden has to do with this. I don't remember anybody saying that Layden did a great job, didn't deserve to lose his job or that they wished that he was still here. So why do people constantly bring him up whenever anybody deservedly criticizes Isiah?

It's a classic rationalization, trying to make one thing appear better than it really is because it's obviously better than something even worse. Having 1 year to live instead of 6 months is better but is it really a good thing on its own? Of course not but if you rationalize it that way then I guess it is better but that's not the point.

so basically you're saying Isiah needs to turn the mess Layden created around in 1yr? not even 3yrs?
islesfan
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7/26/2005  11:08 PM
No, I'm saying he needs to have a plan and stick to it, otherwise you just keep digging yourself into an even deeper hole. And if he truly is "rebuilding" then he has to fix the cap situation because you can't just rebuild with draft picks and the MLE. You need the financial flexibility to make moves. It's not something that you can just ignore.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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7/26/2005  11:09 PM
Posted by islesfan:

And if he truly is "rebuilding" then he has to fix the cap situation because you can't just rebuild with draft picks and the MLE. You need the financial flexibility to make moves. It's not something that you can just ignore.

this i 100% agree with.
bobs3304
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7/26/2005  11:11 PM
isiah has done a good job improving the talent from the team he inherited. that said, he's also added even more salary, and instead of legitimately rebuilding like he should have in the first place, he went straight to a win-now mode.


he's done a good job stockpiling draft picks, but he also made an awful trade in acquiring Mo Taylor. That deal really hurt this team for a good 2 years b/c not only did it add to the cap, but it also tied up the PF rotation, which we are currently trying to address.

It often seems like Isiah is forced to clean up his own mess. I originally thought the Timmy, Nazr deal was a steal for us, but apparently Isiah didn't, b/c he ended up dealing Nazr only a year later, and Timmy has fallen out of favor (to say the least).

He's a good GM, but not a great one, and IMO, this city needs a great one, just as bad as we need a great coach...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
gunsnewing
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7/26/2005  11:11 PM
Posted by islesfan:

No, I'm saying he needs to have a plan and stick to it, otherwise you just keep digging yourself into an even deeper hole. And if he truly is "rebuilding" then he has to fix the cap situation because you can't just rebuild with draft picks and the MLE. You need the financial flexibility to make moves. It's not something that you can just ignore.

definitely agree with you there...hopefully thats mostly Dolan's fault and not Isiah's. If I was Isiah I'd push for the flexibility and not keep ibcreasing payroll and continue having a depleted frontline because of it.
BRIGGS
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7/26/2005  11:12 PM
isiah has gone in the right direction and has also hedged himself away from critiscm. he was smart with the way he handled frye, he drafted two other good players, for better or for worse he got the C he wanted in James, he was patient with brown and got him, he was patient with crawford and got him--

has he done some bad things? YES

what will be the final score--hopefully its good. he gets to pass the buck to brown here--isiah gets off the hot seat--i truly doubt isiah will be seen much from here--i dont see brown allowing isiah to hang out over his shoulder in the tunnell or anywhere else
RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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7/26/2005  11:14 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The plan didn't change; it just took some people a long time to figure it out.

I guess that's your story and you're sticking to it. Sure, let's just ignore all of the contradictory quotes from Isiah saying one thing and now doing another. Like when he said 18 months ago that you couldn't rebuild in NY (check my sig) and now he quoted saying that he's in rebuilding mode. But hey, why accept the truth when you can spin it into something else.
Oh I agree he's undoubtedly made contradictory quotes to the media. He also told the media that he would publicly lie if he felt it necessary (or something along those lines). I simply don't pay attention to what GMs tell the media. His plan all along has been to get young athletic players who can help the team both now and in the long-term. He hasn't changed from that. His moves over the past 2 years have been consistent with a win both now and long-term plan.
islesfan
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7/26/2005  11:18 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

isiah has gone in the right direction and has also hedged himself away from critiscm. he was smart with the way he handled frye, he drafted two other good players, for better or for worse he got the C he wanted in James, he was patient with brown and got him, he was patient with crawford and got him--

has he done some bad things? YES

what will be the final score--hopefully its good. he gets to pass the buck to brown here--isiah gets off the hot seat--i truly doubt isiah will be seen much from here--i dont see brown allowing isiah to hang out over his shoulder in the tunnell or anywhere else

How does this take Isiah off the hot seat? If anything it puts him squarely on it. There'll be no more blaming the head coach. No more Chaney's, Lenny's or Herb's to blame things on. And 2 1/2 to 3 years later, there won't be anymore blaming this on Layden. If they still can't get anywhere past mediocrity it'll be because of the roster that they have and the person who put that overpriced roster together will take the blame.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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7/26/2005  11:24 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The plan didn't change; it just took some people a long time to figure it out.

I guess that's your story and you're sticking to it. Sure, let's just ignore all of the contradictory quotes from Isiah saying one thing and now doing another. Like when he said 18 months ago that you couldn't rebuild in NY (check my sig) and now he quoted saying that he's in rebuilding mode. But hey, why accept the truth when you can spin it into something else.
Oh I agree he's undoubtedly made contradictory quotes to the media. He also told the media that he would publicly lie if he felt it necessary (or something along those lines). I simply don't pay attention to what GMs tell the media. His plan all along has been to get young athletic players who can help the team both now and in the long-term. He hasn't changed from that. His moves over the past 2 years have been consistent with a win both now and long-term plan.

LOL I knew that one was coming. When all else fails, use the excuse that Isiah's an admitted liar.

Young athetlic players like Vin Baker? Oh yeah, I forgot, Isiah is either a complete tool for letting an agent force him to give up an asset like the MLE in exchange for signing another client (even if nobody else was willing to offer that ridiculous contract to him) or he's just that stupid to sign an obviously washed up player like Vin Baker to the MLE. Which is it?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
bobs3304
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7/26/2005  11:26 PM
he signed baker as a favor so that he could guarantee Crawford's availability.


i agree. his goal is to bring in young players for the future that can contribute now as well.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
bobs3304
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7/26/2005  11:26 PM
^ similar to what Dallas is doing....only they had a head start
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/26/2005  11:28 PM
However, Baker is no longer our problem.

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 07/26/2005 23:28:50]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
BRIGGS
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7/26/2005  11:29 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BRIGGS:

isiah has gone in the right direction and has also hedged himself away from critiscm. he was smart with the way he handled frye, he drafted two other good players, for better or for worse he got the C he wanted in James, he was patient with brown and got him, he was patient with crawford and got him--

has he done some bad things? YES

what will be the final score--hopefully its good. he gets to pass the buck to brown here--isiah gets off the hot seat--i truly doubt isiah will be seen much from here--i dont see brown allowing isiah to hang out over his shoulder in the tunnell or anywhere else

How does this take Isiah off the hot seat? If anything it puts him squarely on it. There'll be no more blaming the head coach. No more Chaney's, Lenny's or Herb's to blame things on. And 2 1/2 to 3 years later, there won't be anymore blaming this on Layden. If they still can't get anywhere past mediocrity it'll be because of the roster that they have and the person who put that overpriced roster together will take the blame.


who is saying this is a championship roster? except for a couple of knucklebirds here,and maybe dolan, this is a reclimation/retooling project in action . Not a rebuilding one--hence they spent 40mm on the 30 YO underacheiving james etc.. but the drafting of three young players to go with ariza and sweetney gives them a big hedge in expectations. it would behoove them to bring in 2 more solid rookies next year in the draft, unless a deal that is to good to be true shows up--like a brand etc.. but this team can win and at the same time is being built back up.

I said the ONLy heat that isiah can take this year is Frye bombing[which i dont think will happen] or James being a waste of $, but especially frye. To me Isiah put HUGE stock in Frye--regardless of W-L if Frye doesnt live up to reasonable expectations--which to me are 14 points 7 reb--if he does something like 8 points 4 reb--then we have a problem.
RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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7/26/2005  11:29 PM
Young athetlic players like Vin Baker? Oh yeah, I forgot, Isiah is either a complete tool for letting an agent force him to give up an asset like the MLE in exchange for signing another client (even if nobody else was willing to offer that ridiculous contract to him) or he's just that stupid to sign an obviously washed up player like Vin Baker to the MLE. Which is it?
If you want to change the topic to that, then I don't know which it is. In retrospect, either way it was a mediocre move. I don't expect to get much with the MLE, and we obviously got nothing out of using part of the MLE on Baker. If it was part of the Crawford deal, then I could live with it, although I don't like it. If it wasn't part of the Crawford deal, then it was simply awful.
The bigger picture is that Isiah's gotten many young athletic players who can help in the short-term and long-term, but a small minority of his deals have been bad. I listed the four decisions he's made that I disliked on other threads; I'm not going to repeat them again

LOL I knew that one was coming. When all else fails, use the excuse that Isiah's an admitted liar.
I don't want a GM who feels obligated to always tell the media the full truth about his plans.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/26/2005 23:30:23]
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/26/2005  11:32 PM
Messiah Thomas shall deliver the Knicks a Championship!
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
islesfan
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7/26/2005  11:41 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

he signed baker as a favor so that he could guarantee Crawford's availability.


i agree. his goal is to bring in young players for the future that can contribute now as well.

As a freaking favor to guarantee a player's availability that no other team was willing to take for the price that we paid??? You're freaking kidding me right? I guess you think that Isiah really is that much of a tool.

That's great that Isiah is giving away assets as favors. Utterly moronic.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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