newyorknewyork wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Serious question. Is Irving even a PG? He can play PG if LeBron is on the team but he's kind of like a 6'3" SG.

He is as much of a pg as Isaiah Thomas is in boston, or Steph is in GS. Pure pgs are endangered species nowadays...

OK but those teams have front-court players with off-the-charts passing abilities.

Those teams have been building for yrs...who said once we trade for Kyrie we are a finished product? We would still need to build a team that can compete with the elite. Kyries presence would give us some direction...

Uptown-- we cannot do anything more than Carmelo Lee oquinn and a top 14 restricted pick. When you go beyond that were just doing what we did with Carmelo.

I never said mortgage the future...i never said trade KP or Hernangomez...but, it will take a draft pick and Frank or 2 draft picks and we keep Frank....just to give some perspective, when Chris Paul was traded to the Clips, he was 25yrs old as well. The Pelicans got 2 first rd picks for him. If it comes down to Trading two first for Kyrie, its definitely something to seriously consider...

I think 2 future picks one being protected and one not is reasonable. Irving is worth a high lotto pick and since the picks aren't proven it would cost a 2nd one. But the Knicks need to be smart and have a plan around bringing in Irving.

You look at what Irving and Hardaway bring. A player like Frank is perfect compliment to play alongside of either of them. And is a hard player to find to bring the things he does at the size he does being able to slide between 1-3. We should be looking to build a team not just add star players that get buckets.

Then fans complain when the defense sucks &/or we aren't balanced.

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TPercy wrote:I don't get why people keep citing kyrie before Lebron arrived. If anyone is paying attention to the finals he is a different player now and is clearly the most unstoppable guard in the league. We need to get this deal done.

Why do we need to get this deal done again?

Whats the alternative? Hope and pray that Frank can be three quarters of the player Kyrie is at this point? Odds are against us drafting a player of Kyries callibre...

Tell me why again Kyrie is a fit in a rebuild team? Oh, yeah, well let's chuck that rebuild in the trash can so that we can recreate the same scenario we've had for the last fifteen years.

We already drafted a player who will eclipse Kyrie's talent level in Nitty. We also have a Phil Jackson/Mills/Gaines designed team that will grow together and become next-generation contenders rather than this-generation wannabes.

Wish Kyrie well somewhere else.

Rebuild? We just overpaid for a 25 yr old FA. Does he fit the rebuild? If so, why wont Kyrie who is also 25 and is a champion and is one of the most electric scorers in the league. A player other teams have to gameplan for. Kyrie is the type of talent we can only hope and wish we can draft nxt yr or the yr after and the odds are against it.

Highly unlikely that Frank will turn out to be as good as Kyrie. If he turns out to be half the playet kyrie is we will celebrate...phil is in montana, thank god, so im not sure why you are still attaching hom to this franchise. We just hired a new GM...

During the press conference they said they want young, athletic players...Kyrie checks those boxes and then some...

Exactly it doesn't make any sense to me. People went on about how great each PG in this years draft will be and then you might possibly have a chance to trade for a 25yr old star PG, the day he played his first game in this league, and people still think Frank will be better. The 8th pick and what 4-5 PG's picked ahead of him?

It's not just about comparing those two players, you need to look at the bigger picture. If you keep Frank, he's locked into a rookie contract for 4 years (so we have more cap space to facilitate trades or sign free agents, if we moved Lee or O'Quinn), he also will take several years to develop which means we lose more, which means we end up with higher first round picks for 2 or 3 years. If you trade him or Irving, we won't have cap space and you win more over the next few years which means would end up with much poorer first round draft picks. How do you get from being a mediocre team with Irving to a contender with no cap space and only middle of the road draft picks? If you keep frank and don't get Irving, then you have a better shot at landing another 2 potential talents on rookie contracts, plus cap space.

This is madness. Kyrie was probably, at many times, the best player on the court in 2 NBA finals. Specially last year. The constant whining of being a crappy team and when presented with a game changer, people are talking about POSSIBLE picks that may develop? Ok let's say NO to every young All Star for a few chances at picking another Gallinari, Frye and Hill. F That!!

He also had plenty of games where he was the worst player on the court (something like 6 for 20 shooting with a -20 on/off differential). I like Kyrie. What matters is the cost of getting him.

Ok.whats the cost? Let's say we cant trade Melo. In a weak East we may get a 8th seed and mediocre pick. What does that cost? If we trade Melo for Anderson or another similar piece, does that guarantee a lottery pick? Dont think so. If we somehow find a way to tank for the next few years, does KP.stay or go to a better organization (29 of them) that are better positioned to win. Just look at our great history of picks. Who do we still have? Not counting the guy we just reclaimed for 71M.

The logic is flawed as all the stars in the league were all brought into the league by the draft process. The Knicks due to trading away draft picks held less attempts at a acquiring these stars. Which is why the misses on picks have been even more damaging. The 2 picks we traded away for Eddie Curry turned into Noah and LMA. While Irving is better then Curry that still wouldn't be the point. The final pick that we had to give away from the Marbury trade turned into Gordan Hayward who was also one pick before Paul George.

With that said I would trade Melo and 2 future picks. One unprotected and one lotto protected. Other things like Kuz & KOQ being included and maybe a swap of Lee for Shump if they are interested can also be included. I wouldn't give up any of Frank, KP, Willy in the deal. This way you have your core of 18-25yr olds in place of Irving, Frank, Hardaway, KP, Willy locked in and have 5 yrs to build on top of that before anyone turns 30. If Baker and Dotson become contributors then the Knicks mostly need to target experienced vets on the bench. Since you can't trade back to back picks. We would have a pick in between the 2 we gave up to target a natural SF.

I don't see Irving as a franchise player. Tony Parker also was Finals MVP as was Andre Igoudala and he is closer to those players then he is Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Thomas etc. Being in the best possible situation and scoring buckets in big moments in the finals isn't the same as being a franchise player having to carry at team though 82 games and playoffs.

I don't want to pay the price of a player who carried a team through 82 games into the playoffs as the best player when he hasn't proven to be capable of doing so yet.

We can go back and forth with examples of picks that made it and high picks that didnt. Point is, your leaving out simple probability. We have made 1 pick, in last 20 years, that MAY get to the level of Kyrie. So about a 5% chance at great player vs attaining one. But we dont have to worry because it will take more than Melo, a couple of future picks and Frank to get Kyrie.

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TPercy wrote:I don't get why people keep citing kyrie before Lebron arrived. If anyone is paying attention to the finals he is a different player now and is clearly the most unstoppable guard in the league. We need to get this deal done.

Why do we need to get this deal done again?

Whats the alternative? Hope and pray that Frank can be three quarters of the player Kyrie is at this point? Odds are against us drafting a player of Kyries callibre...

Tell me why again Kyrie is a fit in a rebuild team? Oh, yeah, well let's chuck that rebuild in the trash can so that we can recreate the same scenario we've had for the last fifteen years.

We already drafted a player who will eclipse Kyrie's talent level in Nitty. We also have a Phil Jackson/Mills/Gaines designed team that will grow together and become next-generation contenders rather than this-generation wannabes.

Wish Kyrie well somewhere else.

Rebuild? We just overpaid for a 25 yr old FA. Does he fit the rebuild? If so, why wont Kyrie who is also 25 and is a champion and is one of the most electric scorers in the league. A player other teams have to gameplan for. Kyrie is the type of talent we can only hope and wish we can draft nxt yr or the yr after and the odds are against it.

Highly unlikely that Frank will turn out to be as good as Kyrie. If he turns out to be half the playet kyrie is we will celebrate...phil is in montana, thank god, so im not sure why you are still attaching hom to this franchise. We just hired a new GM...

During the press conference they said they want young, athletic players...Kyrie checks those boxes and then some...

Exactly it doesn't make any sense to me. People went on about how great each PG in this years draft will be and then you might possibly have a chance to trade for a 25yr old star PG, the day he played his first game in this league, and people still think Frank will be better. The 8th pick and what 4-5 PG's picked ahead of him?

It's not just about comparing those two players, you need to look at the bigger picture. If you keep Frank, he's locked into a rookie contract for 4 years (so we have more cap space to facilitate trades or sign free agents, if we moved Lee or O'Quinn), he also will take several years to develop which means we lose more, which means we end up with higher first round picks for 2 or 3 years. If you trade him or Irving, we won't have cap space and you win more over the next few years which means would end up with much poorer first round draft picks. How do you get from being a mediocre team with Irving to a contender with no cap space and only middle of the road draft picks? If you keep frank and don't get Irving, then you have a better shot at landing another 2 potential talents on rookie contracts, plus cap space.

This is madness. Kyrie was probably, at many times, the best player on the court in 2 NBA finals. Specially last year. The constant whining of being a crappy team and when presented with a game changer, people are talking about POSSIBLE picks that may develop? Ok let's say NO to every young All Star for a few chances at picking another Gallinari, Frye and Hill. F That!!

He also had plenty of games where he was the worst player on the court (something like 6 for 20 shooting with a -20 on/off differential). I like Kyrie. What matters is the cost of getting him.

Ok.whats the cost? Let's say we cant trade Melo. In a weak East we may get a 8th seed and mediocre pick. What does that cost? If we trade Melo for Anderson or another similar piece, does that guarantee a lottery pick? Dont think so. If we somehow find a way to tank for the next few years, does KP.stay or go to a better organization (29 of them) that are better positioned to win. Just look at our great history of picks. Who do we still have? Not counting the guy we just reclaimed for 71M.

The logic is flawed as all the stars in the league were all brought into the league by the draft process. The Knicks due to trading away draft picks held less attempts at a acquiring these stars. Which is why the misses on picks have been even more damaging. The 2 picks we traded away for Eddie Curry turned into Noah and LMA. While Irving is better then Curry that still wouldn't be the point. The final pick that we had to give away from the Marbury trade turned into Gordan Hayward who was also one pick before Paul George.

With that said I would trade Melo and 2 future picks. One unprotected and one lotto protected. Other things like Kuz & KOQ being included and maybe a swap of Lee for Shump if they are interested can also be included. I wouldn't give up any of Frank, KP, Willy in the deal. This way you have your core of 18-25yr olds in place of Irving, Frank, Hardaway, KP, Willy locked in and have 5 yrs to build on top of that before anyone turns 30. If Baker and Dotson become contributors then the Knicks mostly need to target experienced vets on the bench. Since you can't trade back to back picks. We would have a pick in between the 2 we gave up to target a natural SF.

I don't see Irving as a franchise player. Tony Parker also was Finals MVP as was Andre Igoudala and he is closer to those players then he is Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Thomas etc. Being in the best possible situation and scoring buckets in big moments in the finals isn't the same as being a franchise player having to carry at team though 82 games and playoffs.

I don't want to pay the price of a player who carried a team through 82 games into the playoffs as the best player when he hasn't proven to be capable of doing so yet.

We can go back and forth with examples of picks that made it and high picks that didnt. Point is, your leaving out simple probability. We have made 1 pick, in last 20 years, that MAY get to the level of Kyrie. So about a 5% chance at great player vs attaining one. But we dont have to worry because it will take more than Melo, a couple of future picks and Frank to get Kyrie.

Kyrie will cost more then future draft picks when you add up those whole cost. Knicks risk locking themselves in mediocrity.

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TPercy wrote:I don't get why people keep citing kyrie before Lebron arrived. If anyone is paying attention to the finals he is a different player now and is clearly the most unstoppable guard in the league. We need to get this deal done.

Why do we need to get this deal done again?

Whats the alternative? Hope and pray that Frank can be three quarters of the player Kyrie is at this point? Odds are against us drafting a player of Kyries callibre...

Tell me why again Kyrie is a fit in a rebuild team? Oh, yeah, well let's chuck that rebuild in the trash can so that we can recreate the same scenario we've had for the last fifteen years.

We already drafted a player who will eclipse Kyrie's talent level in Nitty. We also have a Phil Jackson/Mills/Gaines designed team that will grow together and become next-generation contenders rather than this-generation wannabes.

Wish Kyrie well somewhere else.

Rebuild? We just overpaid for a 25 yr old FA. Does he fit the rebuild? If so, why wont Kyrie who is also 25 and is a champion and is one of the most electric scorers in the league. A player other teams have to gameplan for. Kyrie is the type of talent we can only hope and wish we can draft nxt yr or the yr after and the odds are against it.

Highly unlikely that Frank will turn out to be as good as Kyrie. If he turns out to be half the playet kyrie is we will celebrate...phil is in montana, thank god, so im not sure why you are still attaching hom to this franchise. We just hired a new GM...

During the press conference they said they want young, athletic players...Kyrie checks those boxes and then some...

Exactly it doesn't make any sense to me. People went on about how great each PG in this years draft will be and then you might possibly have a chance to trade for a 25yr old star PG, the day he played his first game in this league, and people still think Frank will be better. The 8th pick and what 4-5 PG's picked ahead of him?

It's not just about comparing those two players, you need to look at the bigger picture. If you keep Frank, he's locked into a rookie contract for 4 years (so we have more cap space to facilitate trades or sign free agents, if we moved Lee or O'Quinn), he also will take several years to develop which means we lose more, which means we end up with higher first round picks for 2 or 3 years. If you trade him or Irving, we won't have cap space and you win more over the next few years which means would end up with much poorer first round draft picks. How do you get from being a mediocre team with Irving to a contender with no cap space and only middle of the road draft picks? If you keep frank and don't get Irving, then you have a better shot at landing another 2 potential talents on rookie contracts, plus cap space.

This is madness. Kyrie was probably, at many times, the best player on the court in 2 NBA finals. Specially last year. The constant whining of being a crappy team and when presented with a game changer, people are talking about POSSIBLE picks that may develop? Ok let's say NO to every young All Star for a few chances at picking another Gallinari, Frye and Hill. F That!!

He also had plenty of games where he was the worst player on the court (something like 6 for 20 shooting with a -20 on/off differential). I like Kyrie. What matters is the cost of getting him.

Ok.whats the cost? Let's say we cant trade Melo. In a weak East we may get a 8th seed and mediocre pick. What does that cost? If we trade Melo for Anderson or another similar piece, does that guarantee a lottery pick? Dont think so. If we somehow find a way to tank for the next few years, does KP.stay or go to a better organization (29 of them) that are better positioned to win. Just look at our great history of picks. Who do we still have? Not counting the guy we just reclaimed for 71M.

The logic is flawed as all the stars in the league were all brought into the league by the draft process. The Knicks due to trading away draft picks held less attempts at a acquiring these stars. Which is why the misses on picks have been even more damaging. The 2 picks we traded away for Eddie Curry turned into Noah and LMA. While Irving is better then Curry that still wouldn't be the point. The final pick that we had to give away from the Marbury trade turned into Gordan Hayward who was also one pick before Paul George.

With that said I would trade Melo and 2 future picks. One unprotected and one lotto protected. Other things like Kuz & KOQ being included and maybe a swap of Lee for Shump if they are interested can also be included. I wouldn't give up any of Frank, KP, Willy in the deal. This way you have your core of 18-25yr olds in place of Irving, Frank, Hardaway, KP, Willy locked in and have 5 yrs to build on top of that before anyone turns 30. If Baker and Dotson become contributors then the Knicks mostly need to target experienced vets on the bench. Since you can't trade back to back picks. We would have a pick in between the 2 we gave up to target a natural SF.

I don't see Irving as a franchise player. Tony Parker also was Finals MVP as was Andre Igoudala and he is closer to those players then he is Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Thomas etc. Being in the best possible situation and scoring buckets in big moments in the finals isn't the same as being a franchise player having to carry at team though 82 games and playoffs.

I don't want to pay the price of a player who carried a team through 82 games into the playoffs as the best player when he hasn't proven to be capable of doing so yet.

We can go back and forth with examples of picks that made it and high picks that didnt. Point is, your leaving out simple probability. We have made 1 pick, in last 20 years, that MAY get to the level of Kyrie. So about a 5% chance at great player vs attaining one. But we dont have to worry because it will take more than Melo, a couple of future picks and Frank to get Kyrie.

There isn't a generic "we" doing the draft for us. There are real human beings - Mills and Perry. They have made zero first round picks for us so far.

nyknickzingis wrote:If we end up with

Hernangomez
Porzingis
Hardaway
Ntilikina
Irving

And the cost is one future first rounder, I am fine with that.
Why? Because unlikely we draft a player as good as Irving in 2018 or 19.

If Porzingis is better next year and there is no drama, there is teamwork, that team could win between 35 and 40 games, make the lower playoff seeded bracket.

How many shots do Hardaway and Irving take combined? KP blew an exit interview because he wasn't being involved in the offense. If you want to guarantee KP leaving them fine, go get that team.

Knixkik wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:If we end up with

Hernangomez
Porzingis
Hardaway
Ntilikina
Irving

And the cost is one future first rounder, I am fine with that.
Why? Because unlikely we draft a player as good as Irving in 2018 or 19.

If Porzingis is better next year and there is no drama, there is teamwork, that team could win between 35 and 40 games, make the lower playoff seeded bracket.

How many shots do Hardaway and Irving take combined? KP blew an exit interview because he wasn't being involved in the offense. If you want to guarantee KP leaving them fine, go get that team.

Disagree. He would obviously welcome kyrie because he wants to win. If you have kyrie and frank, that gives you 2 PGs on the floor which is ideal for KP. If you have kyrie and KP to build around, then the focus should be surrounding them with shooting and defense. Frank and hardaway fit. Willy ultimately becomes a 6th man and you add a strong defensive big man.

Say Kyrie approximately replaced Melo's scoring - how will that equate to winning? We will have Kyrie, Frank and Baker at PG, that would stunt Frank's growth. Neither Kyrie not THJR are playmakers, that means KP isn't getting a ton of help. Plus we now have a gaping home at SF which THJR is NOT going to fill. And we have a redundant 2G in Lee.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:If we end up with

Hernangomez
Porzingis
Hardaway
Ntilikina
Irving

And the cost is one future first rounder, I am fine with that.
Why? Because unlikely we draft a player as good as Irving in 2018 or 19.

If Porzingis is better next year and there is no drama, there is teamwork, that team could win between 35 and 40 games, make the lower playoff seeded bracket.

How many shots do Hardaway and Irving take combined? KP blew an exit interview because he wasn't being involved in the offense. If you want to guarantee KP leaving them fine, go get that team.

KP blew the exit interview because of the chaotic, unprofessional way the tam was being run. He wants to win. I think he would love playing with Kyrie. My concerns about acquiring Kyrie are that he is a candidate for the super max in (2)? Years, and also what the Knicks would give up. I like the idea of keeping and accumulating picks, allowing the core to grow together, and building the team around KP. I think a Kyrie trade means Willy and/or Frank and some picks are sent out. Kyrie is probably worth it but these things don't work out for the Knicks.

Keep pushing your Phil hate because it's kinda funny

Did he love playing with Rose? And Kyrie is going to be different because "you think" he will love playing with him. Got it.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:If we end up with

Hernangomez
Porzingis
Hardaway
Ntilikina
Irving

And the cost is one future first rounder, I am fine with that.
Why? Because unlikely we draft a player as good as Irving in 2018 or 19.

If Porzingis is better next year and there is no drama, there is teamwork, that team could win between 35 and 40 games, make the lower playoff seeded bracket.

How many shots do Hardaway and Irving take combined? KP blew an exit interview because he wasn't being involved in the offense. If you want to guarantee KP leaving them fine, go get that team.

KP blew the exit interview because of the chaotic, unprofessional way the tam was being run. He wants to win. I think he would love playing with Kyrie. My concerns about acquiring Kyrie are that he is a candidate for the super max in (2)? Years, and also what the Knicks would give up. I like the idea of keeping and accumulating picks, allowing the core to grow together, and building the team around KP. I think a Kyrie trade means Willy and/or Frank and some picks are sent out. Kyrie is probably worth it but these things don't work out for the Knicks.

Keep pushing your Phil hate because it's kinda funny

Did he love playing with Rose? And Kyrie is going to be different because "you think" he will love playing with him. Got it.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/IanBegley/status/853039574855016448/actions

Yes "team sources" and ESPN.