BasketballJones wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:listen to Van Gundy

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=oconnor_ian&id=6146150

Thanks for posting. When you get there, you have to click the "Van Gundy On How Good The Knicks Can Be" link to hear the extensive interview with JVG. His basic point seems to be that Carmelo Anthony is a unique talent; the guys we traded are replaceable. Then again, what does this guy know about basketball?

The other side is that Amar'e and Melo don't complement each other, unlike Wade and LeBron, who can both dish the rock, drop the buckets. Melo and Amar'e are not dishing anything, no dishes, and they'll just take turns chucking.

PG: Felton
SG: Fields
SF: Melo
PF: Amare
C: Mozgov/Turiaf

Bench: Gallo, TD, whoever…

PLUS we get to keep Anthony Randolph to see if he turns into something AND we still have our 2014 first rounder.

This year we switch 1st rounders with Houston..doesn’t really matter because a lot of the best players might stay in school for another year till they see what the new CBA looks like

Next year Houston gets our 2012 1st rounder outright…when a LOT of the guys from this season who stayed will come out.

2013 we finally get a pick. 2014 our pick is Denvers AND we traded the 2nd rounders we got from the warriors. When you have 2 max guys like Melo and Amare you need cheap rookies like Fields to fill up the rest of the roster. Our biggest need is center and we are now paying Renaldo Balkman for a while instead of seeing what progress Mozgov could have made.

Hollingers take:

New York: D+

You can't evaluate this as you would a normal trade. This deal was made at gunpoint, and that colors the entire assessment.
Anthony became the first player in memory to issue a trade demand and then list one team that he'd accept a trade to. And then somehow, the Knicks decided to start bidding against themselves and repeatedly agreed to up the ante in the final hours.
New York could have had Anthony this summer while losing only Chandler (a restricted free agent they would have had to renounce). Their primary risk to that outcome was a "franchise tag" in the new collective bargaining agreement that would have allowed Denver to keep Anthony. But even then plenty of alternatives were available for the Knicks, as three better players -- Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Dwight Howard -- all seemed anxious to get to the Big Apple via power plays of their own, and one of the three (or another marquee star) may have wriggled free regardless of what new restrictions the next CBA imposes.
This isn't Indiana or Memphis, and this saga laid that reality bare. Even with a franchise tag rule, New York had so many advantages that it was only a matter of time before a second star showed up, especially given the salary cap space the Knicks had carved out.

To get a player like Anthony in those circumstances, it was worth paying something above just Chandler to convert a likely outcome to a certainty.

But in this case the premium New York paid was as follows, beyond Chandler:

• Gallinari
• Mozgov
• Their 2014 first-round draft pick
• Golden State's second-round picks in 2012 and 2013 (owned by the Knicks)
• $6 million in cash ($3 million each to Minnesota and Denver)
• Swallowing two dead-money years at the end of Balkman's contract
• Trading Anthony Randolph for Corey Brewer
• Trading Felton for Billups, making New York eight years older at the point guard spot with a player who makes nearly twice in salary next season. Remind again why they needed to commit to all eight of these additional considerations for a player they were likely to get anyway?

The worst part, of course, is that this deal proves that no matter how many advantages New York gains from its magnetic appeal to potential free agents, owner James Dolan will screw them up. Leaning on the genius of Isiah Thomas -- because it worked out so well for the first time -- he fell hook, line and sinker for every bluff thrown his way by the Nuggets and Melo's people. (Yes, Melo's people participated -- Anthony needed to make sure he got a lucrative contract extension under the current salary rules before being traded.)

New York still gets its Melo-Stoudemire nucleus, but now lacks the supporting pieces to do anything important with that core. And by extending Melo now, they agree to lock him up at such an expensive price that, in concert with Stoudemire's deal, it likely precludes making a run at Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Dwight Howard in 2012.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:ESPN said that Melo has hit 18 Game winning shots. This is kind of what we always talked about. We have never had that guy who could consistently be the man at the and of the game. STAT does it pretty well, but Melo is even better and that has to help this team when it comes to winning games. We may not be great on D, but teams will have a tough time stopping us too. It was already hard, but now it's even tougher. That goes for Billups as well. How many times did Felton fail to come thru in the clutch? Now we have a PG known for coming thru.

I actually wonder if Amar'e and Melo will have trouble determining who is the alpha dog in that role, a little bit.

It was an adjustment for Wade and Bron... might be an adjustment period here, too.

Who sits to pee and who stands?

nyk4ever wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Markji wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I like Corey Brewer a lot, I hope we play him and I think he helps our bench a TON.

in Minnesota games this season, he's looked like a FANtastic defender and can hit the three.

Seriously - Brewer is good.

He can't shoot the 3.
This year he's shooting 26% 1.8 attempts/game
career 31% with 1.7 attempts/game

He is a good defensive player but not a good rebounder.
This year 2.7 reb/game
career 3.3 reb/game

Lets see him practice the corners and the elbow in the offense and see how many he can hit.

Brewer may definitely have Diaw potential here

This is a stretch. Diaw had only played 2 seasons in Atlanta before going to Phoenix. Brewer may still be young but he is also in his 4th season and has not improved at all since he came into the league. Not even a little bit.

the positive about brewer is that he's a very good defender. he's 24, 6'9 and did have a good year last year averaging 13pts a game. yes he's going to have to improve his outside shooting if he wants to really play here and hopefully the coaching staff will be able to help him with that. but he's nowhere near a useless player, let's see if a chance of scenery will do him good.

Brewer can't shoot, can't dribble, and is an average defender.. this guy is a non factor as far as i am concerned... really, he is not good..

crzymdups wrote:@GodSavetheKnicks - they would have had to let AR go, probably trade him for a #1 pick, to get cap room to sign Melo outright and every indication was that Melo wouldn't wait until free agency with the new CBA looming.

I think it's a fallacy to say that Melo was going to wait until free agency. I just don't think that is true. He said many times the most important thing to him was getting his extension - you can call that selfish, but I think what he was asking for is fair.

I hate losing Felton, but I concede that for the next two years Billups should be on the same level as Ray. Wilson was gone in free agency to get cap room for Melo. That means the only real losses are Gallo and Mozgov. Which, to be able to upgrade from Gallo to Melo, from an inconsistent 15ppg guy to a rock steady 25ppg guy who is unguardable even by the best defenses in the NBA... you have to do the trade.

I've said many times this season that the main thing this team lacked to get it to another level was an elite playmaker from the wing. There are only one or two guys in the entire world at creating their own shot from the wing than Carmelo Anthony. Paul Pierce and Bron killed us this season - we just got a guy who traditionally outplays those two.

also - we are almost certainly keeping our own pick in 2011. We have a better record than Houston right now and barring a disaster, we will finish with a better record than Houston.

This teams lacked someone who could create his own shot. Carmelo does that as good as anyone in this league - agreed.

Billups might actually be better than Felton over the next 2 seasons - also agreed. But Felton would have been a good backup option in case Deron Williams/CP3 decided not to come. Billups looks like he'll be willing to take a paycut after next season to go back to Denver and finish out his career at home.

If we waited till FA - Melo could have been annoyed we didn't get the deal done and changed his mind last minute and signed with who knows. Ok..agreed.

The thing that irks me most about this trade is that everything looks like James Dolan stuck his stupid face in and reduced all that leverage the Knicks had. Dolan could have told Donnie to get the deal done no matter what but at least allowed him to keep his poker face on and wait until Wednesday/Thursday to see if Denver would panic and call us back and accept a lesser offer. They could have certainly found a way to communicate to Melo's people - Look we're going to do what it takes to get you but let us try to give you a better supporting cast.

Then if it's the 10th or 11th hour and Denver isn't blinking..fine..give in and give em the deal.

This just reeks of a lot of bad deal in Knicks history where the Knicks bid against..NO ONE and give up way too much for something that would have been there's anyway.

Ex:

Eddy Curry...who else wanted the center known for being underachieving,overweight,soft and now a bad heart.
Jared Jefferies..who else was lining up to sign this guy? We all know that the cost of this signing was so much more than just what we paid him.
Jerome James

I could go on and on. I'm just hoping I stay healthy long enough to see James Dolan leave. If his successor has the same willingness to spend minus the idiocy and meddling that will be awesome.

In the meantime..I'm still rooting for this current squad and hope Walsh stays to finish the job. Lord knows we'll need someone with guile and experience to work with our now limited cap space and draft picks to get Melo/Amare/Billups some help.

NYKBocker wrote:If Denver keeps our players then they can roll out this starting 5.
C-Timo
PF-Nene
SF-Gallo
SG-Chandler
PG-Felton

with a bench of JR Smith, Harrington, Andersen and Forbes

not bad

You forgot about K-Mart and Lawson and Afflalo. Lawson is the future there and Felton, a legit starting PG for $7 M is too valuable to be a backup. It would make sense to trade him to somewhere like..Atlanta? They're starting Bibby.

PG: Lawson
SG: Afflalo
SF: Gallo
PF: Chandler
C: Nene

Bench: JR Smith, Gary Forbes (solid rook), K-Mart, Harrington, Birdman, Mozgov

AND

whoever they trade Felton for.

That's quality depth at pretty much every single position. The Nugs have been better this year with Lawson on the floor. The ball tends to move much better without Melo. They still have Lawson and JR Smith who can create their own shots. Gallo is getting better at drawing contact and getting to the line.

I actually think..despite losing Melo..they look pretty frikkin solid and young.

And with JR Smith/Nene coming off the books they have options on whether to resign Nene or use him to get a star type player to replace Melo either this season or next..

Panos wrote:
How about Mosgov? How about Chandler? You can't not include Chandler, because if we don't trade for Melo, we resign Chandler.
So its Gallo, Chandler, Mosgov + 2014 pick for Melo + lots of extra salary.

if we resign chandler then we don't sign melo. i did not like mozgov and actually liked that he was included so we can save mda from having to play him.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:You forgot about K-Mart and Lawson and Afflalo. Lawson is the future there and Felton, a legit starting PG for $7 M is too valuable to be a backup. It would make sense to trade him to somewhere like..Atlanta? They're starting Bibby.

PG: Lawson
SG: Afflalo
SF: Gallo
PF: Chandler
C: Nene

Bench: JR Smith, Gary Forbes (solid rook), K-Mart, Harrington, Birdman, Mozgov

AND

whoever they trade Felton for.

That's quality depth at pretty much every single position. The Nugs have been better this year with Lawson on the floor. The ball tends to move much better without Melo. They still have Lawson and JR Smith who can create their own shots. Gallo is getting better at drawing contact and getting to the line.

I actually think..despite losing Melo..they look pretty frikkin solid and young.

And with JR Smith/Nene coming off the books they have options on whether to resign Nene or use him to get a star type player to replace Melo either this season or next..

i think they'll be OK but i think they have a problem the blazers have without Roy. lot of good off the ball players who need someone to create space for them. they can't do it on their own, unless lawson becomes chris paul.

Chandler probably comes off the bench but it's not a horrendous team. i don't think they're better than the grizzlies though.

BasketballJones wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:listen to Van Gundy

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=oconnor_ian&id=6146150

Thanks for posting. When you get there, you have to click the "Van Gundy On How Good The Knicks Can Be" link to hear the extensive interview with JVG. His basic point seems to be that Carmelo Anthony is a unique talent; the guys we traded are replaceable. Then again, what does this guy know about basketball?

what the hell does JVG know about the Knicks or the NBA, anway?