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Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Take A Vacation?
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Bippity10
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8/1/2007  2:55 PM
The draft: has been great with what he has had, but it has been late round picks, of his own doing.

MLE: Completely wasted

Patience: Turning over the roster 3 times in 3 years. He has shown none.

Those were his three biggest assets. In the meantime he has been the lapdog of Dolan and possibly even LB. doing their bidding instead of being strong and sticking to his own plan. He is the GM, he is in charge, and yet all he has done is build in their vision. Thus the crazy rebuild.

It all goes away if Zach and Curry reach their true potential as a duo. If they do, everything we talked about is moot. IF they don't, it is all relevant.
I just hope that people will like me
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Bippity10
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8/1/2007  2:56 PM
Posted by misterearl:

bippity - you know i love you like a red-headed step child on my Aunt Sadie's side of the family, but honestly...
What does that mean? How come I can't understand 75% of what you are saying? I must be dumb
I just hope that people will like me
misterearl
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8/1/2007  3:00 PM
Bippity - work with me for a second. You have shown the maturity to hold an adult conversation, so why not understand one another?

"assets" in this sense refers to those players on the 2003 Knicks roster that might be considered of significant value or attractive to other teams to the point they would give up something of equal or greater value

I just want to understand your opinion of the starting point
once a knick always a knick
Bippity10
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8/1/2007  3:11 PM
I am trying to understand you, but often times you speak with so much hyperbole that I lose your point.

Assets to me means the "assets at your disposal". We all know that he didn't have great players to trade and bring in superstar talent. NOt many were expecting him too(saying that many wanted him too is a falsehood that somehow is allowed to be perpetuated on this site). Noone expected him to turn Shanvis Eisleyspoon into a championship roster. They also did not expect him to contending in 3 years. What fans expected was for him to find a way to target a franchise player. But with late draft picks, overpaid role players making trading difficult it is difficult to see how we are positioning ourselves to do so. Instead Isiah has targeted the castoffs of other teams and is now hoping they catch lightning in a bottle once they arrive.

I think many fans have no faith that Eddie Curry and Zach Randolph will lead us to the promised land. They may be incorrect but this is their opinion. They have no faith in players that have not given us reason to show faith so far in their careers. I can't blame anyone for that.

Isiah's plan was not to build a true team. His plan has been to hoard players and hope that he can turn those players someday into a superstar. It could happen. It may happen. But the way he has done things he has painted himself in a corner. Zach and Curry could be the beasts of the east. But if they aren't, once again for the fourth time, Isiah will be rebuilding the core, going in a new direction and collecting more assets.

At some point you have to start showing results for this.
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misterearl
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8/1/2007  3:33 PM
What's The Plan?

>>No one expected him to turn Shanvis Eisleyspoon into a championship roster. They also did not expect him to contending in 3 years.

So bipp, what you are forwarding is that "most people" simply don't like the way in which Isiah does his job because the Knicks don't have a "franchise player" on the immediate horizon or on the 2007 roster?

>>Isiah's plan was not to build a true team.

I would offer that a "true team" is one that is not based around one superstar or "franchise" player

Seven guys in double figures, for me, is a "true" team



once a knick always a knick
martin
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8/1/2007  3:43 PM
Posted by misterearl:

What's The Plan?

>>No one expected him to turn Shanvis Eisleyspoon into a championship roster. They also did not expect him to contending in 3 years.

So bipp, what you are forwarding is that "most people" simply don't like the way in which Isiah does his job because the Knicks don't have a "franchise player" on the immediate horizon or on the 2007 roster?

>>Isiah's plan was not to build a true team.

I would offer that a "true team" is one that is not based around one superstar or "franchise" player

Seven guys in double figures, for me, is a "true" team

So in the last 20 odd years, only one true team has one the championship? Something like that?

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Bippity10
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8/1/2007  3:47 PM
Posted by misterearl:

What's The Plan?

>>No one expected him to turn Shanvis Eisleyspoon into a championship roster. They also did not expect him to contending in 3 years.

So bipp, what you are forwarding is that "most people" simply don't like the way in which Isiah does his job because the Knicks don't have a "franchise player" on the immediate horizon or on the 2007 roster?

>>Isiah's plan was not to build a true team.

I would offer that a "true team" is one that is not based around one superstar or "franchise" player

Seven guys in double figures, for me, is a "true" team

NO I am not "forwarding" that most people expected him to have a franchise player. What I am "forwarding" is that most people expected him to acquire a franchise player or put the team in position to do so in the future. Why am I forwarding this? Because it is very difficult to go back in history and find a team that doesn't have a franchise guy or a group of all-around, all-star caliber players who have subjugated their games for the good of the team(Wallace, Billups, Hamilton, Dice).

We have the talent to win games like Detroit did. Their is no doubt that if committed to team ball, Jamal and Steph and Eddie and Zach have the talent to do some great things together. The problem is that none of them have shown a deep rooted commitment to being all-around players. We are now in position of hoping that our 4 core veteran players finally decide that being all-around team players is what win's games. Four key players learning this and erasing 20+ seasons of "simply offense" is difficult but not impossible. You have faith that this will happen and I don't kill you for that. I on the other hand do not have faith that it will happen and feel eventually we will be forced to once again try to find a new core to build around. I hope I'm wrong.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 01-08-2007 3:48 PM]
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misterearl
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8/1/2007  3:51 PM
Martin - I just want a definition of the terms that people tend to throw around without any explanation or illustration.

A "true team" is one of them.

That implies that what has been assembled is in some way inferior due to some fatal flaw in the philosophy or mission statement.

I just want to understand what that fatal flaw in the Knicks direction is.





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Bippity10
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8/1/2007  4:33 PM
7 guys in double figures is definitely a "true offensive team" But without a commitment to defense all you have is a "true offensive team". This is why we must demand that our players get the most out of our abilities instead of calling others haters should they ask for more than offense.
I just hope that people will like me
VDesai
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8/1/2007  5:02 PM
In honor of this thread somehow reaching 13 pages, it should be hearby re-entititled, "Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Man Up If You're An Idiot Who Liked The Mo Taylor Trade?"
arkrud
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8/1/2007  5:17 PM
"true team" is a group of players ready to give it all on the court, stay behind each other and dedicate themselfs complitely to the game and to the club.
This is not a guaranty to win a title but most of the time this is a guaranty to be a contender.
We have a couple of players who can develop into "true team" but they are young and have ways to go.
And we have a set of vets who cannot and if you watched the Knicks last 3 years you know what I am talking about.
Thats why this group has value close to "0" in NBA and nobody want any part of them.
Isiah was a big part of "true team" as a player and it is really disturbing to look at what he assembled as GM.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
loweyecue
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8/1/2007  6:28 PM
Why do people keep bringing up Layden when talking about Isiah??

1. We were in a mess.
2. We hired Isiah to get us out of the mess.
3. We paid mucho dollars to Isiah to get us out of the mess.
4. Isiah got a 25 win team
5. Isiah sold our future prospects to trade for career losers who "Contributed" to make us a 33 win team.(Yeah Beeeeeeg deal!!!)
6. Isiah made sure we would be over the cap with no prospects for another 4-5 years.
6. In any other industry professionals like thet don't get to see the light of the day.

Guys he was brought here to get us OUT of the whole not dig a deeper one. What is so hard to understand?
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
nixluva
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8/1/2007  6:45 PM
Posted by loweyecue:

Why do people keep bringing up Layden when talking about Isiah??

1. We were in a mess.
2. We hired Isiah to get us out of the mess.
3. We paid mucho dollars to Isiah to get us out of the mess.
4. Isiah got a 25 win team
5. Isiah sold our future prospects to trade for career losers who "Contributed" to make us a 33 win team.(Yeah Beeeeeeg deal!!!)
6. Isiah made sure we would be over the cap with no prospects for another 4-5 years.
6. In any other industry professionals like thet don't get to see the light of the day.

Guys he was brought here to get us OUT of the whole not dig a deeper one. What is so hard to understand?

So when he took over was there somehow now a magic pixie dust that he was supposed to spread over the team to make it instantly a winner? I remember the predictions were 3-5 years for him to fix the mess Layden left. How about the mandate from Dolan that he had to deal with for the 1st season and a half? He wasn't allowed to come in and just clean house. Even if he did there's no guarantee that this would've meant a shorter path to building a contender.

At some point we had to expect that this team was gonna have to go thru something drastic to fix the mess we had. Isiah has completed 3.5 seasons here and as of right now the team is better than it's been in a long time in terms of the personnel we have and the youth we've added. It's not perfect, but it's a good deal better than what we had at the start. You can win with this team and you can continue to build on this team. We had nothing before and now we at least have a team that can be in the mix.
misterearl
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8/1/2007  7:19 PM
arkrud - it wasn't all that disturbing to watch the yoots in Las Vegas

why not wait until December before throwing dirt on this revamped roster and burying them?

I respectfully disagree that the "value" of this roster is not close to zero as you claim

If you state they are "young and have a ways to go", what is the point of the "woe is us" nattering, naysaying, negativity before the maturation process even starts?

sheesh

oh yeah I almost forgot

Wilson Chandler rocks the house
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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8/1/2007  7:23 PM
>>"true team" is a group of players ready to give it all on the court, stay behind each other and dedicate themselfs complitely to the game and to the club.

Robinson: I'm working out at the practice facility still. I'm staying here in New York -- I'm not going home to see my friends and family. I told them that I am trying to do my best in the NBA now and go down in history, so nothing against my family, but right now I'm hungry. I want to win, I want to go to the playoffs, and I want to win a championship. That is my goal, so now I am not going to let anything get in my way. So I am just working out and conditioning. I am watching a lot of film. I'm watching a lot of Steve Nash and other great point guards in the NBA and am just trying to get it done.

Richardson: This season is all about winning. This summer is all about getting better. I might take some time to go chill for a bit somewhere right before camp starts, but I'm focusing on getting better.

Question: You've got another guy from DePaul on the team now that Wilson Chandler was drafted in the first round. How do you feel about having a fellow Blue Demon on the Knicks?

Richardson: It's cool! I'm thrilled to have a guy with the same background and history and pride as myself. I'm looking forward to working with him.

Question: What are your thoughts on the other draft pick, Demetris Nichols?

Richardson: I actually know Demetris. Last summer, he came and worked out in Chicago. A year before they come out for the draft, a lot of guys come to my gym and work out there to train. I knew the kid could play, and was thrilled when we got him.

Question: The Knicks went undefeated in NBA Summer League. What was it like watching Nate Robinson and Renaldo Balkman leading the club like that?

Richardson: I was happy, and was really proud of them. They should have gone undefeated because they played really well. They deserved it. I was really happy to see Renaldo shut down (Kevin) Durant with all the hype he has. He did a real good job.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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8/1/2007  7:26 PM
>>6. Isiah made sure we would be over the cap with no prospects for another 4-5 years.

loweyecue - No prospects?

Not one?

sheesh



[Edited by - misterearl on 08-01-2007 7:26 PM]
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Bippity10
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8/1/2007  7:28 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Martin - I just want a definition of the terms that people tend to throw around without any explanation or illustration.

A "true team" is one of them.

That implies that what has been assembled is in some way inferior due to some fatal flaw in the philosophy or mission statement.

I just want to understand what that fatal flaw in the Knicks direction is.


So now you have your definitions. To you a true team has seven guys in double figures and that's all they need to do to be a true team. To me a true team is a team that is assembled to have very few glaring weaknesses.

As for the "fatal flaw". Once again Mistereal you can have that fatal flaw argument with someone else. Because I criticize Isiah does not mean I think his roster is "fatally flawed". That thought is your own personal creation. What it means is Isiah is making it very tough on himself to compete for a title. It's very difficult to win doing things the way Isiah is doing them. 3 years in, and I defy you to determine what are absolute, untradeable core is. YOu don't know because we don't have one. Eventually for this to be considered a true core, that has to be the case. We will not win until that is the case. He has to commit to his players at some point and build around the core
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misterearl
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8/1/2007  7:34 PM
Bippity - the untradeable core?

Hey, that's a good one.

If I ruled the world, I would not trade:

Collins before he's advanced past his second NBA season

Chandler before he's 25 years old

Nichols before people see if his three point range is for real

Lee before he's played beside Randolph at center

Curry before he's played next to Randolph Morris at power forward

Morris until he's played two full seasons

Balkman before his dreads wilt and fall out

and Zach before he has played one full season in New York
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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8/1/2007  7:35 PM
That's an eight man core of yoots, all 27 and under

the fix is in
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Bippity10
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8/1/2007  7:37 PM
Okay, than what you are saying is that this is the core that Isiah is going to go to bat with for the next 3 or 4 years. We shall see.
I just hope that people will like me
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