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Choosing JYD to waive is dumb! (IT'S OFFICIAL)
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gunsnewing
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8/16/2005  1:26 AM
Posted by TMS:

this has been argued in countless previous posts on this thread so i'm not going to get into it again...i already stated my position on who i'd rather have seen waived based on their value to the team...i just want to say let's not make this out to be that anyone here thinks losing JYD is going to doom this franchise for years to come...i don't believe anyone who opposes this move has implied that in the least.


well said. thats what happens when you start labeling, grouping and stereotyping people
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joec32033
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8/16/2005  5:38 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by joec32033:

I know I am late for this whole JYD thing but I 100% agree with rvh. Where there better options to get rid of? Yes. is this the end all be all of the franchise like alot of guys are making it out to be? Not in the least.


who ever said it was the end all & be all of the franchise? are we not allowed to criticize a move & call out Isiah for stupidity when he makes nonsensical moves like this on this forum? no one has a problem when Isiah's praised as a God for making good decisions...it works both ways...consider each argument for what it's worth & let's avoid the overgeneralizations...no one thinks JYD's absence will make or break the franchise...the argument is that waiving JYD was nonsensical when you could have saved more money by going any 1 of a few alternate routes...obviously Isiah chose to waive JYD to save his own face over the Mo T trade, & because his options were limited by Dolan's decision to allow Allan to go out on his own terms.


With 13 pages of "Isiah is an idiot", one could very well draw the conclusion that this cut is going to be very hard for this team to swallow. But it isn't. That is my point.....I hate using sarcasm and hyperbole in posts because it never plays right so this time I'll be direct....There is absolutely no way that this hurts the Franchise in any way. Jerome is a nice player to have on a winning team, but let's look at it this way. When the Bulls were rebuilding, and he was on the bench, how many games did his towel waiving win them?

[Edited by - joec32033 on 08-16-2005 05:40 AM]

[Edited by - joec32033 on 08-16-2005 05:41 AM]
~You can't run from who you are.~
firefly
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8/16/2005  6:26 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by rojasmas:

I liked JYD like everyone but don't see how he was going to get minutes behind Rose and if they wanted Lee to see time. Taylor brings something different to the equation with a low post game.


thats the whole point. JYD was not going to take away minutes from Lee, Sweetney & Frye.... Malik Rose will

No offence Guns, and I agree with you on a lot of things, but that has to be one of the silliest arguements I've ever heard. Are you saying that we should have waived the vastly superior player so that our rookies should get some burn. Had we waived Rose, we would be starting with Sweetney and JJ, and no veteran presence behing them at all! Granted, we all HOPE that Frye will be alright from the getgo, but the chances are it will take him at least a few months to aclimatize to the NBA, and we need someone there when the team needs help.

To say that the team should have waived the younger, better and more necessary player is nosensical.

Oh and by the way, just cuz in touches a hidden rage in me when guys get the spelling wrong over and over again.... the word is stunt, not stun. Stun is when you hit someone with a heavy object, like Sweetney's ass

Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
diderotn
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8/16/2005  6:54 AM
Malik Rose should have been the one, but I guess that Brown needs a player with a ring to give our boys aspiration.
The true Knickabocker..........
Knicksfan
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8/16/2005  7:33 AM
OMG

I just found out today who the Knicks had waived and all I can say is "What tha??" Are they crazy!?!? JYD is more versatile than Rose, taller, more value in trades with shorter contract than Rose. What the..?? Rose should've been the one let go. The Knick always find a way to make you feel bad about them, right? Bah, this was a bad move.
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joec32033
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8/16/2005  7:38 AM
The only thing that concerns me is these rumours that JYD is considering retirement. I mean can you imagine if Allan and Jerome retired and we waived Mo?!?we would've gotten two trade exeptions AND rid of MO......I am really interested to see if Zeke has a plan of attack here. If Jerome was set on retiring and Zeke knew it, I would've released someone else and we would have 2 roster spots (and we could sign BOTH Diop and Jerome James!)
~You can't run from who you are.~
Bonn1997
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8/16/2005  7:58 AM
Posted by firefly:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by rojasmas:

I liked JYD like everyone but don't see how he was going to get minutes behind Rose and if they wanted Lee to see time. Taylor brings something different to the equation with a low post game.


thats the whole point. JYD was not going to take away minutes from Lee, Sweetney & Frye.... Malik Rose will

No offence Guns, and I agree with you on a lot of things, but that has to be one of the silliest arguements I've ever heard. Are you saying that we should have waived the vastly superior player so that our rookies should get some burn. Had we waived Rose, we would be starting with Sweetney and JJ, and no veteran presence behing them at all! Granted, we all HOPE that Frye will be alright from the getgo, but the chances are it will take him at least a few months to aclimatize to the NBA, and we need someone there when the team needs help.

To say that the team should have waived the younger, better and more necessary player is nosensical.

Oh and by the way, just cuz in touches a hidden rage in me when guys get the spelling wrong over and over again.... the word is stunt, not stun. Stun is when you hit someone with a heavy object, like Sweetney's ass
Agreed; Sweetney started AHEAD of Rose last year even though he wasn't a better player than Rose. Stating that Rose will play ahead of the young guys and stating that JYD wouldn't are two huge assumptions to make that I can't find much support for. If anything JYD would probably take more minutes away from Ariza and Lee than Rose would because JYD, Ariza, and Lee all can play SF.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-16-2005 07:59 AM]
GoNyGoNyGo
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8/16/2005  8:09 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by matt:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:

JYD is a PF right? This means that he could potentially take away time from Frye and Lee. NY has a glut at PF, so they waived the guy that helps them the least. Rose does exactly what JYD does but is a winner. Even with this cut NY still has too many PF's. I expect a deal in addition to this cut. Cuttin Houston was too much of a risk that he would come back and win a ring with another team. For Dolan that matters even though the Knicks are not in that realm yet.

HOuston if healthy can be a great weapon for this team. Ny could really spread the Defenses out with Q and H20 and let Frye, James and Sweetney work down low one on one.

Thanks, JYD, job well done. Knick fans always will always appreciate your hustle.



No. JYD plays 0-5mins per game. The guy who's going to take away sweetney, frye & lee's minutes is Malik Rose. At least Taylor is our most consistent scorer inside. Waiving JYD and not Rose will hurt the developement of the younger players but this is the Knicks why would anyone expect anything more!


Exactly, JYD never usually played more than 10 minutes anyway, and when he did it was a spark plug. Who on the team now is that player?
At SF, the sparks will probably be Ariza and Lee. Nate will be a nice spark at PG. That's already three good sparks off the bench. Most teams don't have that.


Again, Rose will get a HUGE chunk of Lee, Sweetney & Frye's numbers whereas JYD would only get 0-5 of their minutes. Waiving JYD and not Rose(who happens to have a longer/bigger contract) will come back to hunt Knick fans


Ok, so you are a Knicks fan and you would rather that the team waive the better player in Rose over JYD? To be blunt, Lee is not going to get much time this year. If he is even on the 12 man roster, he would be the 12th guy and play JYD minutes anyway. I think he will be NBDL. So, NY needs a VET like ROSE who will help the young guys to learn how to play the game the right way. He was a leader in SA and can become one here. Sweets is not ready to take on the PF role full time. Rose is the perfect backup. Frye will see some minutes there too but mostly will be the backup C. So you see Rose is needed more so than JYD. MoT is a specialty player and will be used accordingly.

If you read my post, I stated that there is still a glut at PF. I expect a deal to releive it some more.

The other thing you must realize is that Rose is a LB type player. Yes, it can hurt the development of Lee but honestly Lee is being groomed as a SF anyway.
simrud
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8/16/2005  9:09 AM
Sweetney is the defacto starter, and if he in any kind of shape he is light years ahead of Rose and Taylor in what he brings to the game.

Rose getting major minutes might win us a couple of games this year but it will cost dearly in the player development department. Lee was a selebrated pick by many and should at least get a chance to crack the rotation. He played vere well in the summer league, despite playin out of position.

Every time Taylor doesnt get a tough defensive rebound or gets eaten alive in the post, and each timr Rose is rejected by the rim or misses yet another poitn blank layup, just remember the day we chose to waive JYD over one of these two players.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
diderotn
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8/16/2005  9:17 AM
It is very sad to see how f..ked up the NBA is...When you are a hard worker, you don't normally get the recognition necessary. Example: TD is a hell of a player, he will quitely put up some excellent numbers and win multiple championships, but yet, he is always overlooked.

JYD is the hardest working man in the game, he leaves it all on the court every night, never complained about playing time, but yet, he is the first to get waived....That is sad.....very sad.
The true Knickabocker..........
Nalod
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8/16/2005  9:17 AM
If jerome retires, wth no injury cause, he forfiets his contract.

IJ don't think his injuries were career threatening for insurance purposes, but they add up. JYD would have to have surgery, rehab and make a go of it for a number of games.

I think he has been breaking down for a number of years and while talented, its his hustle that makes him. If your hurting, its not good for his game!

Thus, he gets his money, the team gets a roster spot, and all is well.

Malik and Mo. T have a lot of hoop in them. Remember, JYD was just a throw in! Love him, but lets be real!
MattSuspect
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8/16/2005  9:44 AM
Posted by Nalod:

If jerome retires, wth no injury cause, he forfiets his contract.

IJ don't think his injuries were career threatening for insurance purposes, but they add up. JYD would have to have surgery, rehab and make a go of it for a number of games.

I think he has been breaking down for a number of years and while talented, its his hustle that makes him. If your hurting, its not good for his game!

Thus, he gets his money, the team gets a roster spot, and all is well.

Malik and Mo. T have a lot of hoop in them. Remember, JYD was just a throw in! Love him, but lets be real!


END OF THREAD. NALOD Nailed it. Nothing more to discuss.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/16/2005  9:56 AM
Hopefully, as more moves are made while we get closer to the season, this will appear more justified.

Personally, I believed that JYD would've benefitted from Larry Brown's tutelage. He even mentioned how much he was looking forward to being coached by Brown.

No need to feel sorry for him, though. Dude will still get every cent of that contract.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
TMS
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8/16/2005  10:31 AM
Posted by MattSuspect:
Posted by Nalod:

If jerome retires, wth no injury cause, he forfiets his contract.

IJ don't think his injuries were career threatening for insurance purposes, but they add up. JYD would have to have surgery, rehab and make a go of it for a number of games.

I think he has been breaking down for a number of years and while talented, its his hustle that makes him. If your hurting, its not good for his game!

Thus, he gets his money, the team gets a roster spot, and all is well.

Malik and Mo. T have a lot of hoop in them. Remember, JYD was just a throw in! Love him, but lets be real!


END OF THREAD. NALOD Nailed it. Nothing more to discuss.


dude, you realize if JYD were to retire, it makes even LESS sense to waive the guy? they could have waived Shandon's contract, & saved even more money off their luxury tax AND reaped the benefits of the open roster spot after JYD retired...it's simply a moronic decision any way you look at it...not a single person on this thread has said this will make or break the franchise...it's not overreaction to call out Isiah for a boneheaded personnel decision...he's praised whenever he makes a good one by me & several other critics on this thread as well...things do work both ways sometimes, as hard a concept as that may be to grasp for some of you.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
joec32033
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8/16/2005  10:39 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by MattSuspect:
Posted by Nalod:

If jerome retires, wth no injury cause, he forfiets his contract.

IJ don't think his injuries were career threatening for insurance purposes, but they add up. JYD would have to have surgery, rehab and make a go of it for a number of games.

I think he has been breaking down for a number of years and while talented, its his hustle that makes him. If your hurting, its not good for his game!

Thus, he gets his money, the team gets a roster spot, and all is well.

Malik and Mo. T have a lot of hoop in them. Remember, JYD was just a throw in! Love him, but lets be real!


END OF THREAD. NALOD Nailed it. Nothing more to discuss.


dude, you realize if JYD were to retire, it makes even LESS sense to waive the guy? they could have waived Shandon's contract, & saved even more money off their luxury tax AND reaped the benefits of the open roster spot after JYD retired...it's simply a moronic decision any way you look at it...not a single person on this thread has said this will make or break the franchise...it's not overreaction to call out Isiah for a boneheaded personnel decision...he's praised whenever he makes a good one by me & several other critics on this thread as well...things do work both ways sometimes, as hard a concept as that may be to grasp for some of you.

TMS I agree that the move looks alot worse if JYD was gonna retire anyway, and I would've hoped that Mo wa the one who would get waived if JYD did retire, but from what I see, from an objective standpoint, Mo has more trade value than Malik and obviously Dolan for some reason wanted to keep Allan (be it he is healed, he didn't want him going off on us with another team, or he may very well retire...Hell maybe he learned from McDyess and is giving Allan all the time he needs to be a productive player)...At best we could've cleared 3 roster spots and saved by my account--$50 mil--if JYD and Allan retired (based on insurance covering their salary) and Mo's contract savings.

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crzymdups
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8/16/2005  10:48 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by MattSuspect:
Posted by Nalod:

If jerome retires, wth no injury cause, he forfiets his contract.

IJ don't think his injuries were career threatening for insurance purposes, but they add up. JYD would have to have surgery, rehab and make a go of it for a number of games.

I think he has been breaking down for a number of years and while talented, its his hustle that makes him. If your hurting, its not good for his game!

Thus, he gets his money, the team gets a roster spot, and all is well.

Malik and Mo. T have a lot of hoop in them. Remember, JYD was just a throw in! Love him, but lets be real!


END OF THREAD. NALOD Nailed it. Nothing more to discuss.


dude, you realize if JYD were to retire, it makes even LESS sense to waive the guy? they could have waived Shandon's contract, & saved even more money off their luxury tax AND reaped the benefits of the open roster spot after JYD retired...it's simply a moronic decision any way you look at it...not a single person on this thread has said this will make or break the franchise...it's not overreaction to call out Isiah for a boneheaded personnel decision...he's praised whenever he makes a good one by me & several other critics on this thread as well...things do work both ways sometimes, as hard a concept as that may be to grasp for some of you.

Actually, it's not moronic anyway you look at it. Maybe Jerome wouldn't have retired and he would have tried to keep rehabbing and tied up a roster spot. If Allan retires, waiving JYD makes the most sense - he had the second richest contract at $21 million. They needed the roster spot, so waiving Shandon made no sense. Malik Rose and Mo Taylor can still play and when you had two guys who were broken down in JYD and Houston it obviously had to be one of them. So how do the Knicks save the MOST money in that scenario: waive JYD and retire Houston before the season - do the math, the insurance wouldn't kick in for Allan if we waived him, so that's $32 million MORE we save. So, actually, it sounds like waiving Allan would've been pretty moronic.

Mainly this is about treating two players: Houston and JYD with respect. It allows Allan the time to come to terms with retiring (which will save them $32 million more than waiving him, you don't collect insurance money on a waived contract). It allows JYD to avoid continous hardwork and rehab over the next three years and offers him a position within the organization.

So actually, it makes a lot of sense. It saves plenty of money and allows them to save the most money possible WHEN Houston retires. It allows them to treat Houston and Williams with respect. Maybe that's moronic to you, but it matters to most people.

I can't believe some of the cats here who just want to b^tch like little babies for two straight days just because they don't know all the facts.
¿ △ ?
TMS
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8/16/2005  10:50 AM
Shandon's contract is just extra baggage on our payroll...he's not even tradeable...this was the perfect chance to get rid of the luxury tax figure attached to his salary, & still leave open the opportunity for 2 veteran players like Allan & JYD to go out on their own terms if they so choosed & open up 2 rosters spots that could be filled w/younger guys...seems to make the most sense to me.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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8/16/2005  10:53 AM
crzymdups, catch up on the conversation cuz i've already stated that i agreed w/not waiving Allan Houston...if you want to hear yourself talk, that's fine...just try not to put words into my mouth that represent inaccurate assumptions by you & tell others not to bitch about things w/o knowing the facts in the same breath.

[Edited by - TMS on 08-16-2005 10:57 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
crzymdups
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8/16/2005  11:04 AM
we don't know how much Shan's buyout was actually for, the same way we didn't really know the terms of JYD's deal.

my point about JYD is that maybe he wouldn't have wanted to retire, but once he was waived and faced with the reality of his injuries, he starts thinking about retiring. to my mind, it diffuses a potentially ugly situation and opens up a roster spot IMMEDIATELY, which Zeke apparently wants to sign James Jones or Diop (ugh on Diop).

so they used the amnesty clause to waive JYD and show him some respect and didn't do anything with Shandon, to whom they already paid a buyout and they're receiving money from any team Shandon plays for anyway.

my point is: there are clearly reasons. I wasn't speaking only about you, I'm just sick of the people looking to jump down thomas' throat before they know any of the facts. because bottom line: if we sign James Jones tomorrow and Allan Houston retires, this move looks just fine. The only way they could save more than that scenario is amnesty Shan, hope JYD actually retires, hope Houston retires. You can't force JYD to retire and you don't get a roster spot, unless you waive him, in which case you're still paying luxury tax on him.

¿ △ ?
TMS
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8/16/2005  11:20 AM
if a player retires you don't open up a roster spot? how does a team carry retired players on their active roster? i've never heard of such a thing. if a player retires due to injury you get an injury exception & insurance pays off most of the remaining salary on his deal, no? if i'm not straight on my facts here feel free to correct me...i don't ever pretend to be the know it all on this forum...i just voice my opinion when i have one & comment on others when i agree or disagree with theirs.

what i'm fearing is that this sets up yet another idiotic move if Isiah decides to sign Diop to the LLE imo...i've maintained that from the start & unless i see Diop put up some crazy #'s in exhibition games, my mind isn't changing anytime soon on that issue.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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