Vmart wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Vmart wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Man what is going to happen to this place when Trump wins Tuesday?

Normalcy, I can't wait for that. I come here for basketball I get political banter which I have come to the conclusion has divided like minds who care about Knicks. You know it doesn't really matter who wins anymore because we are getting screwed either way.

Hillary and Trump both can't be trusted. Trump is offering the moon and Hillary is offering absolutely nothing. Increased taxes and not much else. She playing the women and children card. Honestly when a politician does that it means they are offering nothing.

Re Political Banter - but it is in one thread and I don't see it spreading to other threads. It is a nice outlet in a place we frequent.

And what is more important? Understanding our political system/culture or Basketball? I see basketball as a fun distraction, it is not changing anything.
If we had more open debate regarding politics and things that matter (e.g. education), how could we be in our current situation?

On this site Basketball matters most. It is banter because we have very little control over what people feel and think. It's banter because fact are distorted and lies are distorted. By mental manipulation by mediums. Dividing people thinking they are right when in reality everyone is right about certain aspects. It's up to the person to come to the conclusion in the end of what is best for them not so much what is best for others.

For example if a Billionaire like Cuban goes against Trump. Why would that have an effect on the average citizens or Jay-Z and Beyoncé why should that influence anyone. These people have a disconnect with the average person. Why would they want change when they like the way things are. If your an middle class person it's not that great there is struggle not knowing when the job you have will be there. There is a lot going on that the elites have no clue about.

Yes it is political banter when it is said and done.

My post was in response to the question normalcy will once again return to the site and we will go on talking about the relevancy of the New York Knicks. That's what Americans do we respect the outcome and get back to our daily lives.

I see your point, I think, but I'm all for letting people decide. I don't partake in many threads, OT or not. I don't see how this can be such a problem (unless there are too many), it looks like any other thread, and so someone can just check in and see if they like it. Even though emotions are often hot here, I have a blast (most of the time.) A bit like a game where we are always learning, depending on our beliefs, with some banter thrown in. The presidential election is a pretty big deal, only once every four years, but unfortunately, as you alluded to, there is a lot of exageration and what not in the threads. But probably because it really matters (hits a nerve), in people.

Regarding your question - "For example if a Billionaire like Cuban goes against Trump. Why would that have an effect on the average citizens or Jay-Z and Beyoncé why should that influence anyone."
I think when people see Trump, they realize he is filthy rich and is going up against the political system. There is a huge story there. Normally, to run for president you have to be a politician or actor (preferably both). So, even though he is rich, he talks straight out at ya, like the person he is (not a politician), and that represents a lot of the anger people have been feeling. And he picks at those points, rightly or wrongly. Many of the things he's said, have been felt at one time or another by people but people rarely hear that from a politician and they connect. He comes across as a rich guy who is fed up so much with a system that even though he benefits from it, it may not be there in the future if the corruption continues. So he is going up against it. Speaking of which...

Trump is as close to Kurt Russell in Falling Down (1993) that I've ever seen in a presidential candidate, lol. He is hitting the nerve and hearts of many Americans, again, rightly or wrongly.
He is a natural result of a corrupt system, trying to right itself.

I don't see a lack of normalcy on the sight. Where? Just in this one thread? Probably why, in part, it is approaching 200 pages long.

And, I'm really not meaning this in a bad way, but please don't say what Americans do or don't do. That ain't right. I'm real weary of Patriotism and Nationalism, actually, most of the "ism's" I can think of. I'm an American and if I have evidence that something is corrupt and will affect the future lives of my fellow Earthlings, I risk what I have to right things (if it gets that bad). It is our duty to sacrifice sometimes, look at those who came before us. So, to respect an outcome to me, means a legitimate outcome. We already have 1,000's of false ballots being filled out. An affidavit was just filed, this is extremely worry some to be happening, especially in a key State.

actual affidavit: http://6889-presscdn-0-68.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Chelsey-Smith-SOE-Affidavit.pdf

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/794595151817543681

earthmansurfer wrote:

Vmart wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Vmart wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Man what is going to happen to this place when Trump wins Tuesday?

Normalcy, I can't wait for that. I come here for basketball I get political banter which I have come to the conclusion has divided like minds who care about Knicks. You know it doesn't really matter who wins anymore because we are getting screwed either way.

Hillary and Trump both can't be trusted. Trump is offering the moon and Hillary is offering absolutely nothing. Increased taxes and not much else. She playing the women and children card. Honestly when a politician does that it means they are offering nothing.

Re Political Banter - but it is in one thread and I don't see it spreading to other threads. It is a nice outlet in a place we frequent.

And what is more important? Understanding our political system/culture or Basketball? I see basketball as a fun distraction, it is not changing anything.
If we had more open debate regarding politics and things that matter (e.g. education), how could we be in our current situation?

On this site Basketball matters most. It is banter because we have very little control over what people feel and think. It's banter because fact are distorted and lies are distorted. By mental manipulation by mediums. Dividing people thinking they are right when in reality everyone is right about certain aspects. It's up to the person to come to the conclusion in the end of what is best for them not so much what is best for others.

For example if a Billionaire like Cuban goes against Trump. Why would that have an effect on the average citizens or Jay-Z and Beyoncé why should that influence anyone. These people have a disconnect with the average person. Why would they want change when they like the way things are. If your an middle class person it's not that great there is struggle not knowing when the job you have will be there. There is a lot going on that the elites have no clue about.

Yes it is political banter when it is said and done.

My post was in response to the question normalcy will once again return to the site and we will go on talking about the relevancy of the New York Knicks. That's what Americans do we respect the outcome and get back to our daily lives.

I see your point, I think, but I'm all for letting people decide. I don't partake in many threads, OT or not. I don't see how this can be such a problem (unless there are too many), it looks like any other thread, and so someone can just check in and see if they like it. Even though emotions are often hot here, I have a blast (most of the time.) A bit like a game where we are always learning, depending on our beliefs, with some banter thrown in. The presidential election is a pretty big deal, only once every four years, but unfortunately, as you alluded to, there is a lot of exageration and what not in the threads. But probably because it really matters (hits a nerve), in people.

Regarding your question - "For example if a Billionaire like Cuban goes against Trump. Why would that have an effect on the average citizens or Jay-Z and Beyoncé why should that influence anyone."
I think when people see Trump, they realize he is filthy rich and is going up against the political system. There is a huge story there. Normally, to run for president you have to be a politician or actor (preferably both). So, even though he is rich, he talks straight out at ya, like the person he is (not a politician), and that represents a lot of the anger people have been feeling. And he picks at those points, rightly or wrongly. Many of the things he's said, have been felt at one time or another by people but people rarely hear that from a politician and they connect. He comes across as a rich guy who is fed up so much with a system that even though he benefits from it, it may not be there in the future if the corruption continues. So he is going up against it. Speaking of which...

Trump is as close to Kurt Russell in Falling Down (1993) that I've ever seen in a presidential candidate, lol. He is hitting the nerve and hearts of many Americans, again, rightly or wrongly.
He is a natural result of a corrupt system, trying to right itself.

I don't see a lack of normalcy on the sight. Where? Just in this one thread? Probably why, in part, it is approaching 200 pages long.

And, I'm really not meaning this in a bad way, but please don't say what Americans do or don't do. That ain't right. I'm real weary of Patriotism and Nationalism, actually, most of the "ism's" I can think of. I'm an American and if I have evidence that something is corrupt and will affect the future lives of my fellow Earthlings, I risk what I have to right things (if it gets that bad). It is our duty to sacrifice sometimes, look at those who came before us. So, to respect an outcome to me, means a legitimate outcome. We already have 1,000's of false ballots being filled out. An affidavit was just filed, this is extremely worry some to be happening, especially in a key State.

actual affidavit: http://6889-presscdn-0-68.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Chelsey-Smith-SOE-Affidavit.pdf

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/794595151817543681

This...

DrAlphaeus wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:earthmansurfer, I'm interested in your take on the role of intelligence agencies and espionage in a democracy. Are they compatible? Moral compromise and shady ethics are in the job description there, no? Would you abolish our spy program if you could?

I personally couldn't ever be President because my moral compass would go haywire leading the CIA, FBI, NSA, and the armed forces. Espionage is fun and sexy to watch in the movies but the reality is much grimmer.

I guess what I'm saying is I empathize with your outrage at the machinations of the Clinton camp in general, even if I disagree with the accuracy of some of your specific accusations. And maybe I'm just trying to justify a vote for Clinton because like we discussed, I'm much more afraid of Trump's domestic policy and white Christian nationalist enabling than I am of Clinton's war hawk tendencies (which I hope are checked by her allies to her left).

A lot of these Washington people are all buddy buddy, no doubt. They pretend they are mortal enemies in public and then go to the bar together afterwards like WWF wrestlers after a match. I guess I'm wondering what your bigger point is. I know Hillary scares you yet you aren't going to vote. So what is your prescription? What do you see as your ideal way forward?

I just want to move away from the meme du jour and image macros and try to have some more constructive conversation. Thanks.

Preamble-
When I was a kid, I would lay in bed and think "What was here before God?" I would get visions of the Universe forming by this intelligent force (God if you will) and then ask "Ok, now before that what was there?" And my mind/soul couldn't register it. It felt like I was abruptly awoken from bliss. That is how your question feels to me. Really. I just am having problems finding the words, Englishing it.

We are living in a construct and to change some big variables like you are asking, boy, I just think we are past that point. I do think we can avoid all out destruction but without some crisis of survival, a worldwide religious experience, Aliens making themselves known, etc. - We are between a rock and a hard place. But what we are, is a part of life (We are big bang after all), so I think "we" can correct things. In a way, we are exactly where we need to be, so...

Amble-
"Would you abolish our spy program if you could? "
No, if we abolished them our "enemies" would probably take advantage as we have made a lot of enemies around the world. That would be an extreme, sort of like saying "We are decomissioning all nuclear weapons over the next 12 months." Considering what we have done around the world, it would be a suicide mission (at least given the current state of things. Under different circumstances, perhaps - see before mentioned crisis comments.) Would I like to though? Heaven yeah, I'd rather try to live in a man made Garden of Eden than a man made Hell.

Regarding your larger question - role of intelligence agencies and espionage in a democracy. Maybe, if we have trust within our governmental system. But we don't have that, not close. Maybe back in the 50's when things were rosy it could have been possible. But their best bet is to keep lying, I'm sure they see they are way past really changing the system. Where the system stands now, to update my answer, I'll plead the 5th, as we are so broken. I think it will organically work itself out.

Just to correct something - I really wouldn't say I feel outrage regarding the Clinton camp. As I said above - we are right where we need to be. We don't know what reality is, what life is, etc. so I am ok with where this story currently is. That said, having a family and feeling that everyone on this planet is a part of it, I feel like I'm just doing, what I feel/intuit/think is best for all of us. I can accept being wrong. Sometimes I can feel frustration with what is happening, but it is generally short lived as I have a faith about life.

Has it crossed your mind that no matter who gets in we destroy ourselves? or we rescue ourselves? Maybe the next actor isn't so important to life on Earth as the variables are a many. Maybe Hillary loses in a landslide and Trump gets in and then is pressured or lied into going into Saudi Arabia, or a civil war starts at home. I wouldn't be shocked. Maybe Hillary gets in and starts war with Russia and we get to experience what those who lived through WWI and WWII did. I wouldn't be shocked either, so to speak. The only saviour can be us, that I feel to be true, so I'm trying to be more me. (Living more from my heart, though my words at times in this thread, give me pause. :-( )

I guess, like you, I can't answer your question (fully). I don't want that responsibility. I have no desire for that kind of power (being president, etc.)
My pre-amble, amble and the rest were just a ramble. I'm ok with that. I hope those here who "scheme and plan" with leading questions don't hold it against me at a future date.

In a way my answer is rooted in one sentence from Krishnamurti: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

To be honest, I haven't had this much fun online, meaning the whole forum election process, since years back when I discovered Bitcoin and saw all it can do to try to help fix a corrupt money, financial, government system.

Earthmansurfer

I wanted to respond to your post here with more consideration, policy debate aside.

It does feel like we as a nation and a world are trapped by the choices of previous generations. Of course we can't dismantle our spy program or unilaterally disarm our nuclear weapons program, as much as my inner hippie wants. It's like the Hatfields laying down arms while still in a blood feud with the McCoys.

So with this great power comes great responsibility. But I guess much like Spider-Man, we often don't learn our lesson until we make a tragic mistake. But the world isn't a Marvel Comic book... we instead are distracted silly by Marvel movies eating popcorn to destruction for entertainment while people are dying in sieges in Syria and Iraq. And we don't even treat these sieges in the same way: the siege of Aleppo is a war crime while the siege of Mosul is the good fight.

This is why I'm inclined to support the Green Party because of their platform of peace and environmental justice. We are such a powerful nation because of the land and labor we stole and the abundant resources within, ever growing and expanding. We are trapped by our own success and keep wanting to hear the hits: growth, growth, growth! Build that big house! Yet there is that counter culture of people seeing the traps and wanting to avoid it. Build a tiny house, get back to nature, sustainability over unsustainable growth models.

It is incredibly strange that the most power I feel like I have politically is trying to persuade people I've never met in real life on an off-topic thread on a Knicks board. It feels like if I could just elevate the discourse here and at least get people seeing the way I think and trying to understand where they are coming from, it's more real than this lever I'm going to pull. In a way we are already the dinosaurs, the next generation is ready to supplant us and burn our remains for fuel. So we definitely need to leave something they can build on. I like the Green New Deal idea. Here we are on the Internet thanks to the defense department and government-academic-private collaboration. Holfresh's point on electric vehicle fueling stations on interstates is a great example. I don't want to return to a Gilded Age where we are relying solely on Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos as the new Vanderbilt and Carnegie, who used things like the Postal Service, interstates, NASA, and Internet — paid by the taxes and toil of our predecessors — to supplant those services and bring forth Gilded Age 2.0, turning us into the new urchins, except at least we have Netflix! lol

Anyway, it's been fun having this somewhat anonymous forum to vent these thoughts. So cheers to you.

PS — great Krishnamurti quote

The third industrial revolution is there. We want it or not the human race is entering the era of automation, robotics, and AI.
Millions of people are not needed any more as a workforce and it will turn into billions.
Most of the people will leave to consume and produce small amount of humans capable to create and design.
It actually was always the case but it was not so profoundly clear with not to many people living in the world and civilization was able to find new frontiers to keep most population busy or destroy the excess. This luxury is a thing of the past.
We will need less and less resources, land, and hands to produce what people essentially need.
The population will collapse and large swats of the Earth will became a wasteland.
We see this process rapidly unfolding in front of our eyes in Central and Northern Asia, Middle East, and Africa.
Hundreds of millions have no jobs and purpose. They are killing each other for renaming peaces of wealth and running for their life to places where they can survive.
The elites who are informed are scared and helpless. They are up to the greatest challenge they are not ready to face.
Surely we are on an Island but the problem which are facing the Humanity are to big.
We will not be able again to isolate and hide our heads in the sand.
The age of Hilaries and Trumps are over. We need leaders who are up to the challenges we are going to face.
This elections are a symptom of our terrible level of assertiveness of the reality.
Time for REAL leaders is coming and I have no doubt we will see one in near future.

arkrud wrote:
I am not Hillary fan but making a big deal of her being the possible reason for War with Russia is silly.
Putin does not need war. Russia has no need for new territories and even after gaining some in Ukraine and other proxy states like Prodnestria, Donbass, and North Osetia/Aphasia they did nothing to integrate this territories into Russian economy or social life.
Russia is rapidly depopulating and regressing as state and country. Best human resources are looking out so they are up to Norht Korean path now; until new revolution will collapse the ruling kleptocracy.
Putin and Co are only interesting in retaining power and wealth they draining from Russian people for as long as possible and to retain it when they will be kicked out from power by next Russian revolution.
I agree that Hillary may be more inclined to continue wasting US resources on useless fight for future wastelands.
And she may be not so savvy in providing a good filtering of human resources coming into the country as 3rd world get undone.
But this are pretty little worries.
Both of the candidates will be irrelevant as presidents. They just do not poses the leadership most of the country can accept.

Nah, her record speaks to the contrary. And her recent statements regarding Russia being behind the leaks speaks volumes about how she goes about solving problems.
Regardless of if I am wrong with Hillary and Russia, that is just the piece of the Hillary puzzle to me. I just don't trust her.
Obama was against going into Libya, but she was able to influence the bombing, so I really don't put anything past her.
You can't use your sanity and put it into a sociopath and expect them to react the same.

The economy does not look good and the banking system has been teetering since before 2008. Unfortunately, war often accompanies economic problems.

Regardless of who gets in, I do hope that checks and balances stop anything too extreme from happening. But we are between a rock and a hard place.

Did you vote for Bush 2 and McCain? One of them declared multiple wars under false pretext and the second wanted to do so if elected. The neocon wing in the GOP is what feeds the Military Industrial Complex this attempt to make Hillary responsible for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is amusing but won't get you anywhere.

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Trumps policies have largely not been spoken about here, well, at least not the pages I've been active on. I am more concerned with pointing out Hillary's problems because I want to avoid war. That is above all else. But I like what he said in his Gettysburg Address. It should be watched. I don't agree with everything though....

I am more afraid of Clinton getting in the White House and starting more wars than anything regarding Trump. I am more curious about bringing to the surface what Hillary has done that is illegal or makes us question her ability to serve as president.

Do you know which of the two candidates said this? "I'm really good at war. I love war....Including with nukes, yes, including with nukes"

Context is everything.
"So Trump was saying Japan might do well to defend itself with its own nuclear weapons, rather than talking about what he would do as president with the United States’ own nuclear arsenal."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/19/priorities-usa-action/super-pac-ad-says-trump-likes-war-even-nuclear-lac/

holfresh wrote:Trump rushed off stage by secret service..

I saw this. It was at the beginning of an event in Reno. There is no evidence to support that this was an assassination attempt. Let me say this, while I can't stand Trump at all, him being assassinated would be the worst thing imaginable. I feel that would completely open up Pandora's box as well. I'm glad he's protected and well.

earthmansurfer wrote:

arkrud wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

arkrud wrote:
I am not Hillary fan but making a big deal of her being the possible reason for War with Russia is silly.
Putin does not need war. Russia has no need for new territories and even after gaining some in Ukraine and other proxy states like Prodnestria, Donbass, and North Osetia/Aphasia they did nothing to integrate this territories into Russian economy or social life.
Russia is rapidly depopulating and regressing as state and country. Best human resources are looking out so they are up to Norht Korean path now; until new revolution will collapse the ruling kleptocracy.
Putin and Co are only interesting in retaining power and wealth they draining from Russian people for as long as possible and to retain it when they will be kicked out from power by next Russian revolution.
I agree that Hillary may be more inclined to continue wasting US resources on useless fight for future wastelands.
And she may be not so savvy in providing a good filtering of human resources coming into the country as 3rd world get undone.
But this are pretty little worries.
Both of the candidates will be irrelevant as presidents. They just do not poses the leadership most of the country can accept.

Nah, her record speaks to the contrary. And her recent statements regarding Russia being behind the leaks speaks volumes about how she goes about solving problems.
Regardless of if I am wrong with Hillary and Russia, that is just the piece of the Hillary puzzle to me. I just don't trust her.
Obama was against going into Libya, but she was able to influence the bombing, so I really don't put anything past her.
You can't use your sanity and put it into a sociopath and expect them to react the same.

The economy does not look good and the banking system has been teetering since before 2008. Unfortunately, war often accompanies economic problems.

Regardless of who gets in, I do hope that checks and balances stop anything too extreme from happening. But we are between a rock and a hard place.

Hard do disagree.
But do not discount the influence of US Army.
Generals want to put their skills to work.
The main power struggle is between Washington corrupted bureaucracy, secret services, and Generals.
President is just a proxy. When he takes independent position JFK happens.
International policy is a mess. The stability we enjoyed after Soviet Union was dissolved is long gone.
The house is burning all over. The coalitions are cracking and new are formed.
A lot of tough decisions are coming to the plate... and we have this crappy elections at very wrong time.

We can hope that those in positions of power, be they military, CIA, NSA, FBI, DOJ, etc. do step forward if they see a group of people getting to powerful.
It happens, at least in other countries. There is a guy who mentions an uprising happening now, at least one that doesn't sound crazy with a legit past.
"Steve R. Pieczenik, MD, PhD[1] (born December 7, 1943) is an American psychiatrist, former United States Department of State official, author, and publisher."
"Pieczenik was Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance and James Baker.[3] His expertise includes foreign policy, international crisis management and psychological warfare.[7] He served the presidential administrations of Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush in the capacity of deputy assistant secretary."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pieczenik

He says there is an ongoing (silent) Coup happening right now. I think stemming from the FBI but forget. I would view this skeptically of course, but it is interesting all things considered. I'm curious about it

2.5 million views, was near the top yesterday and Google didn't list it on their top views. I saw it go from 500k to 2.5million in a day.

This may not be the real thing but in general we have no idea of the powers that secret services have.
Believe me I know this for sure after leaving 33 year in USSR.
KGB/FSB is much more powerful that many states with all their armies.
And now they are ruling the nuclear and military power of Russia unchallenged.
CIA alone was always at the same level of power as KGB and it still is in US.
They can step in at any time and change the course of events.
They can lie deep and weather any political storm to come back again and control the society.
From serving the communist state in Russia and serving 1% wealthy in US they mutated to serve them-self.
The only force which can counter them is their antipod - military elite.
They always hated each other and balanced each other out.
Will see how it goes at this historical turn in both supper powers.
History not always repeat itself.