fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:But we dont want to listen directly to those who actually work on the front lines of the borders. We dont care what they have to say. We care more that Trump grabbed his crotch in 1997 then illegal drug cartels setting up shop in the US unabated.

Hillary has NEVER pledged open borders. Anything else you want to make up?

Im not making that up--go talk to the US border and customs --they said/wrote it today. Its just the agency that protects our borders--nothing special. Im sure you know much more than them You think that 15,000 US border patrolmen are lying to you?

Its their Union endorsing them. Do you know nothing about politics? Really? Trump has made them promises. More men. More benefits. More whatever. Therefore they throw their support behind him. That's how that works. 1+1=2. Is it really that hard to understand man?

More people have been deported under Obama then ANY other US president. Ever. Unabated? Seriously.. did you attend Trump university?

Making Amerika great again...eh BriggS?

Great points.

earthmansurfer wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:earthmansurfer, I'm interested in your take on the role of intelligence agencies and espionage in a democracy. Are they compatible? Moral compromise and shady ethics are in the job description there, no? Would you abolish our spy program if you could?

I personally couldn't ever be President because my moral compass would go haywire leading the CIA, FBI, NSA, and the armed forces. Espionage is fun and sexy to watch in the movies but the reality is much grimmer.

I guess what I'm saying is I empathize with your outrage at the machinations of the Clinton camp in general, even if I disagree with the accuracy of some of your specific accusations. And maybe I'm just trying to justify a vote for Clinton because like we discussed, I'm much more afraid of Trump's domestic policy and white Christian nationalist enabling than I am of Clinton's war hawk tendencies (which I hope are checked by her allies to her left).

A lot of these Washington people are all buddy buddy, no doubt. They pretend they are mortal enemies in public and then go to the bar together afterwards like WWF wrestlers after a match. I guess I'm wondering what your bigger point is. I know Hillary scares you yet you aren't going to vote. So what is your prescription? What do you see as your ideal way forward?

I just want to move away from the meme du jour and image macros and try to have some more constructive conversation. Thanks.

Preamble-
When I was a kid, I would lay in bed and think "What was here before God?" I would get visions of the Universe forming by this intelligent force (God if you will) and then ask "Ok, now before that what was there?" And my mind/soul couldn't register it. It felt like I was abruptly awoken from bliss. That is how your question feels to me. Really. I just am having problems finding the words, Englishing it.

We are living in a construct and to change some big variables like you are asking, boy, I just think we are past that point. I do think we can avoid all out destruction but without some crisis of survival, a worldwide religious experience, Aliens making themselves known, etc. - We are between a rock and a hard place. But what we are, is a part of life (We are big bang after all), so I think "we" can correct things. In a way, we are exactly where we need to be, so...

Amble-
"Would you abolish our spy program if you could? "
No, if we abolished them our "enemies" would probably take advantage as we have made a lot of enemies around the world. That would be an extreme, sort of like saying "We are decomissioning all nuclear weapons over the next 12 months." Considering what we have done around the world, it would be a suicide mission (at least given the current state of things. Under different circumstances, perhaps - see before mentioned crisis comments.) Would I like to though? Heaven yeah, I'd rather try to live in a man made Garden of Eden than a man made Hell.

Regarding your larger question - role of intelligence agencies and espionage in a democracy. Maybe, if we have trust within our governmental system. But we don't have that, not close. Maybe back in the 50's when things were rosy it could have been possible. But their best bet is to keep lying, I'm sure they see they are way past really changing the system. Where the system stands now, to update my answer, I'll plead the 5th, as we are so broken. I think it will organically work itself out.

Just to correct something - I really wouldn't say I feel outrage regarding the Clinton camp. As I said above - we are right where we need to be. We don't know what reality is, what life is, etc. so I am ok with where this story currently is. That said, having a family and feeling that everyone on this planet is a part of it, I feel like I'm just doing, what I feel/intuit/think is best for all of us. I can accept being wrong. Sometimes I can feel frustration with what is happening, but it is generally short lived as I have a faith about life.

Has it crossed your mind that no matter who gets in we destroy ourselves? or we rescue ourselves? Maybe the next actor isn't so important to life on Earth as the variables are a many. Maybe Hillary loses in a landslide and Trump gets in and then is pressured or lied into going into Saudi Arabia, or a civil war starts at home. I wouldn't be shocked. Maybe Hillary gets in and starts war with Russia and we get to experience what those who lived through WWI and WWII did. I wouldn't be shocked either, so to speak. The only saviour can be us, that I feel to be true, so I'm trying to be more me. (Living more from my heart, though my words at times in this thread, give me pause. :-( )

I guess, like you, I can't answer your question (fully). I don't want that responsibility. I have no desire for that kind of power (being president, etc.)
My pre-amble, amble and the rest were just a ramble. I'm ok with that. I hope those here who "scheme and plan" with leading questions don't hold it against me at a future date.

In a way my answer is rooted in one sentence from Krishnamurti: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

To be honest, I haven't had this much fun online, meaning the whole forum election process, since years back when I discovered Bitcoin and saw all it can do to try to help fix a corrupt money, financial, government system.

Earthmansurfer

I wanted to respond to your post here with more consideration, policy debate aside.

It does feel like we as a nation and a world are trapped by the choices of previous generations. Of course we can't dismantle our spy program or unilaterally disarm our nuclear weapons program, as much as my inner hippie wants. It's like the Hatfields laying down arms while still in a blood feud with the McCoys.

So with this great power comes great responsibility. But I guess much like Spider-Man, we often don't learn our lesson until we make a tragic mistake. But the world isn't a Marvel Comic book... we instead are distracted silly by Marvel movies eating popcorn to destruction for entertainment while people are dying in sieges in Syria and Iraq. And we don't even treat these sieges in the same way: the siege of Aleppo is a war crime while the siege of Mosul is the good fight.

This is why I'm inclined to support the Green Party because of their platform of peace and environmental justice. We are such a powerful nation because of the land and labor we stole and the abundant resources within, ever growing and expanding. We are trapped by our own success and keep wanting to hear the hits: growth, growth, growth! Build that big house! Yet there is that counter culture of people seeing the traps and wanting to avoid it. Build a tiny house, get back to nature, sustainability over unsustainable growth models.

It is incredibly strange that the most power I feel like I have politically is trying to persuade people I've never met in real life on an off-topic thread on a Knicks board. It feels like if I could just elevate the discourse here and at least get people seeing the way I think and trying to understand where they are coming from, it's more real than this lever I'm going to pull. In a way we are already the dinosaurs, the next generation is ready to supplant us and burn our remains for fuel. So we definitely need to leave something they can build on. I like the Green New Deal idea. Here we are on the Internet thanks to the defense department and government-academic-private collaboration. Holfresh's point on electric vehicle fueling stations on interstates is a great example. I don't want to return to a Gilded Age where we are relying solely on Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos as the new Vanderbilt and Carnegie, who used things like the Postal Service, interstates, NASA, and Internet — paid by the taxes and toil of our predecessors — to supplant those services and bring forth Gilded Age 2.0, turning us into the new urchins, except at least we have Netflix! lol

Anyway, it's been fun having this somewhat anonymous forum to vent these thoughts. So cheers to you.

PS — great Krishnamurti quote

gunsnewing wrote:Man what is going to happen to this place when Trump wins Tuesday?

There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth... but the Chinese get it.

gunsnewing wrote:Man what is going to happen to this place when Trump wins Tuesday?

It'll be like when we handed the bulls our two 1st rounders for eddy curry

gunsnewing wrote:Man what is going to happen to this place when Trump wins Tuesday?

I imagine there will be a lot of bitching and moaning at first, but that will die down after Trump restricts internet access and begins incarcerating the losers that speak ill of their Fuhrer.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

You talk about connections when it's more fair to talk about responsibility, especially when you are talking about people's lives. Yes, I hold every Congressperson who voted Yes for the Iraq War resolution responsible for being followers and not leaders, and for abdicating their Constitutional responsibility to the Executive. So she was one of what... 300+ legislators, and wasn't even a leader in the body she was a member of? Saying she should have known the real intelligence because of her "connections" is ridiculous. Bush/Cheney started the drumbeats, and showed Congress some BS that they said was their sheet music, and she tapped her foot to the beat... but I don't think she could read the music by herself to independently verify, to extend the metaphor to its breaking point.

Yes, call her on her judgement, that is fair. But I think your prayers for a Trump/Pence administration reveal you are wearing rose-colored glasses. You may see champagne there, I see sparkling water with food coloring. And he sure can rally the people, like white Christian nationalists. You know my position on what I fear from a Trump/Pence administration from a domestic perspective.

Hoping Trump meaning what he says? Building a wall and making Mexico pay for it? Let's start with that one. How do you think he can "make Mexico pay for it"? His supporters think they mean Mexico's getting a bill in the mail. What does Trump mean? Pay for it with pesos or will it suddenly switch to "paying for it" as a metaphor? Please honestly assess this for me. Why do you have any hope in Trump?

Sure, all those congressmen who voted should be "judged" as well. But they aren't running for president and there aren't books written about (most of) them.
Regarding connections, the Clintons might have more than just about any other politicians. Really, she has the chance to make perhaps some of the hugest changes our country has seen, good or bad, but I just don't see her talking about anything monumental.

Hopefully Trump will listen to his military advisors regarding war/invasions and such. If Trump didn't outright lie in his Gettysburg Address, then I love (most) of what he talked about. If he gets in, the first few months will tell.

The wall - lol - maybe don't pick what I think is his weakest point. This is an area where I am a bit tied. On the one hand having open borders with Mexico (which is what it often amounts to), while we are bombing many parts of the world, is asking for problems. On the other hand, asking Mexico to pay for it is crazy to me, unless he has a good argument for it. The global elite seem hell bent on having open borders and a war on terror - What a great combination - one insures the other when you drop enough bombs. We need secure borders though, so perhaps we direct a little bit of the military budget and build a better fence and enforce the existing border policies? I think a lot of the country (not to mention the border agents) are fed up with (too much) illegal immigration. Something needs to be done.

Haha... You have to start with the wall, it's his smash hit! It's how he rose to the top of the pops! So you are saying you don't agree with his mantra about the wall but you think he will do what he says? You don't agree and you think he can't do what he says? Or you don't agree and you don't think he'll do what he says anyway? What exactly is your position here beside embarrassment, haha

Please, don't make is a "this or that" logical fallacy. You seem to just be looking for holes in my argument here rather than even addressing what I said. Regardless of Hillary or Trump, it probably is getting to the point, that we really need to address illegal immigration.

I think he will try to do what he says. If people support a wall then build it and pay for it, that is a democracy. I am not for dividing countries with walls personally, but if you are bombing all over the world, you better put up a fence, so to speak. But Imagine there's no...

Well you are arguing that Trump is somehow trustworthy and you don't have rose-colored glasses on about this election. I'm arguing that Trump's rhetoric is problematic and unrealistic. It's an argumentative conversation we are having! And logic is important here. What fallacy am I guilty of here? Come on. I don't understand how you "make Mexico pay for it" so my conclusion is he must be pissing on my head and telling me it's raining. I'm just trying to figure out what your conclusion is. You think he will try to build this wall and try to make Mexico pay for it. I just don't understand what this means policy-wise! We send a bill to Mexico City or start a tariff war?

I hear your point on addressing illegal immigration and border security and don't have an argument against that. I'm talking about whether Trump is trustworthy on this position when he's not a "Made in USA" type of businessman. If he can question Clinton's judgement as a politician, and Trump has never been in public office, all I have is his words and his business record. There ARE businesses who make sacrifices to keep manufacturing here even if it costs initial profits. Actually, it's a powerful marketing tool: I have definitely chosen to purchase goods made in the USA over foreign made counterparts even if they were slightly more expensive.

The fallacy I was talking about (and I should have just called it what it was) is: False Dilemma - Giving two choices when in actuality there could be more choices possible.
And I'm not saying you did it intentionally, as we often simplify things or hold people to just their exact words. But clearly we have more choices, which is what I brought up.
We hold these candidates to their words but what often ends up happing is compromise. They're reaching for 10 but settle on 5. Sort of what I saw Trump doing with the wall.
Still was an extreme thing for Trump to say and I can't say I agree with it. But, he speaks his mind, Hillary doesn't, she stays politically correct. Anyway, I don't think he will
get Mexico to pay for the wall, I think taxpayers will pay. If immigration wasn't a huge huge concern, he never would have harped on the wall imo.

I don't hear Hillary talking about anything big, other than pointing the finger at Russia during the debates. Really, she is just another in a long line of corrupt politicians who are serving whomever behind the scenes. She is not here for the common person.

Re Rose colored glasses - I've said before, either can get in and the worst can happen. Nothing rosy there. I just think it is all but guaranteed with Hillary.

Let's Drain the Swamp.

gunsnewing wrote:Man what is going to happen to this place when Trump wins Tuesday?

Normalcy, I can't wait for that. I come here for basketball I get political banter which I have come to the conclusion has divided like minds who care about Knicks. You know it doesn't really matter who wins anymore because we are getting screwed either way.

Hillary and Trump both can't be trusted. Trump is offering the moon and Hillary is offering absolutely nothing. Increased taxes and not much else. She playing the women and children card. Honestly when a politician does that it means they are offering nothing.

earthmansurfer wrote:

Vmart wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Man what is going to happen to this place when Trump wins Tuesday?

Normalcy, I can't wait for that. I come here for basketball I get political banter which I have come to the conclusion has divided like minds who care about Knicks. You know it doesn't really matter who wins anymore because we are getting screwed either way.

Hillary and Trump both can't be trusted. Trump is offering the moon and Hillary is offering absolutely nothing. Increased taxes and not much else. She playing the women and children card. Honestly when a politician does that it means they are offering nothing.

Re Political Banter - but it is in one thread and I don't see it spreading to other threads. It is a nice outlet in a place we frequent.

And what is more important? Understanding our political system/culture or Basketball? I see basketball as a fun distraction, it is not changing anything.
If we had more open debate regarding politics and things that matter (e.g. education), how could we be in our current situation?

On this site Basketball matters most. It is banter because we have very little control over what people feel and think. It's banter because fact are distorted and lies are distorted. By mental manipulation by mediums. Dividing people thinking they are right when in reality everyone is right about certain aspects. It's up to the person to come to the conclusion in the end of what is best for them not so much what is best for others.

For example if a Billionaire like Cuban goes against Trump. Why would that have an effect on the average citizens or Jay-Z and Beyoncé why should that influence anyone. These people have a disconnect with the average person. Why would they want change when they like the way things are. If your an middle class person it's not that great there is struggle not knowing when the job you have will be there. There is a lot going on that the elites have no clue about.

Yes it is political banter when it is said and done.

My post was in response to the question normalcy will once again return to the site and we will go on talking about the relevancy of the New York Knicks. That's what Americans do we respect the outcome and get back to our daily lives.