DrAlphaeus wrote:This has been an interesting conversation. I invite people still interested or participating to review the whole thread, see where it twists and turns. arkrud has an interesting and valid perspective and I don't think he's necessarily a bad person. He has a certain logic that is different from mine, but I can see how it works. I personally like his proposed gun law revisions, they are way more liberal than I think the US can accept, but I'd vote for some of it.

It's all about getting at our base assumptions about how the world works and what part we can do individually and what part is bigger than us and therefore needs us to come together and figure out what we can do. I can both acknowledge the bootstrap mentality as an individual or as a motivational method but if I think that humans are best when we pull together like villagers and someone else thinks we are depraved greedy beings best kept in nuclear units... we just have different assumptions I guess, and the truth is likely somewhere in between.

I value logic but I also value emotions. Analysis must be coupled with empathy.

So I hope this discussion has caused us to reconsider some of our assumptions. There is too much generalization and not enough nuance in our body politic.

I am learning. I am not aware much about issues of African American community because of obvious reasons me being new immigrant.
I am not stereotyping black people.
I just share my personal experiences and values of my community in hope that it will help others get out of some dogmatic views.
Fresh voice should be always helpful especially if it is respectful.

Earl taking any positive fact about any other community as attack on blacks.
This is fascinating and strange. Looks like some kind of social paranoia.
Is it just him or it is widespread condition?

misterearl wrote:arkrud and gonygo - please stop with the stereotypical descriptions. Family is the most important thing to everyone.

Every single person.

This is not a stereotype, this is reality.
You cannot solve the issue if you are not accepting it.
There are many very serious reasons for this situation.
Historical, political, cultural but regardless it is an issue which needs attention.

Study: Average Israeli Family Has 3.72 Members; 13% Have a Single Parent

Single Parent family stands at 66% for African American:

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by#detailed/1/any/false/869,36,868,867,133/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/432,431

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

misterearl wrote:arkrud and gonygo - please stop with the stereotypical descriptions. Family is the most important thing to everyone.

Every single person.

When people refer to family structure, they are talking about the nuclear family, a couple and their dependent children, it is as a basic social unit. It takes two committed parents, working hard and sacrificing for their children with cultural norms establishing direction and guidance from birth. In all those other minorities mentioned, education is stressed and monitored. It is not a sterotype to say that there has been a degradation of nuclear familes in black communities where the out of wedlock birthrate among blacks is 72% resulting in a preponderance of single parent households with many reliance on welfare. Study after study show that people of all races with high rates of out of wedlock births suffer higher unemployment and higher crime rates and black author Tom Sowell has cited this in his studies as a prime driver for the disprpotinate crime rates and income levels of blacks. The cultural norm that accept bearing children without benefit of marriage-72%- and absent fathers is a major issue facing black America going forward and needs to recognized and addressed by the black community to change and escape a culture of poverty for so many

Cool, we'll just keep getting shot and suffer injustice until you feel like we've cleaned our act up enough for you to stop pertifogging the issue and actually giving a damn. Hope your age-old anecdotes about how we are the worst ethnic group gets you to sleep at night.

Childish response. I would not be surprised if I've volunteered more in poor black communities that you have, it's not to cleanse my soul but to simply help. Started in hs and the younger generation of family continues the tradition of volunteering to the less fortunate. Just last month my nephew collected alot of used lax equipment that is quite expensive to donate to Harlem Lacrosse in addition to teaching the sport. I cite a serious and pertinent issue backed by facts that undermine black communities and do so not to the exclusion or dismissal of other points. You should not limit the scope of contributing factors if you want to make true progress

Blakcs don't benifit from poor family structure, poor education, and division. So if these are the issues permitting blacks from advancing why do you believe that blacks choose to ignore these issues.

Your question gets to the crux of accountabilty. Do you think out of wedlock births is something within a person's control and can be reduced? Do you think it would be better for children to be raised in a nuclear family than by a single parent ?Do you think the learning environment can be improved by disciplining or removing unruly kids from the classroom ? Do you think that it is better to take a job that affords growth potential even if it may pay less than welfare?

Question wasn't answered.

There is no end game to blaming the white man. There is no reward for blacks at the end of it. In theory claiming there is no white privilege could be viewed as a hustle because the white man would actually benefit from white privilege. So to claim it doesn't exist would in fact benefit said white person.

I want to play with theory. Blacks as a whole don't benefit from poor education(which may lead to crime), single parent families(which may lead to crime), or crime. On the other hand government in theory could benefit from crime through profit. People can invest in prisons. If you invest in a prison your whole purpose in that investment is for people to go to jail in order to make profit. And in theory its possible for government to do everything in its power to maximize profit.

To say blacks aren't accountable would be inaccurate. We are accountable with our lives. Blacks who aren't educated usually end up in jail and or dead. And blacks who are educated have to be far superior then their peers in their fields in order to kill stereotypes and move up the ladder. So in theory blacks choose jail and death over education and family values. Even though it doesn't benefit us in any way. All so we could blame the white man at the end of the day and avoid accountability. Which we are held to regardless due to poverty, jail, death. And government would like nothing more then to not make profit over crime but are forced to due to blacks criminality. Then you see stats like blacks being put in jail at a higher rate for the same crimes. Which leads to accountability, but where is the accountability for the other races? Which leads to the possibility of white privilege and profit being made off of a race of people who have been thrown in jail at an alarming rate.

Since we are on about accountability though. Where was the accountability for the Stanford rapist? Which "jail will have a negative effect on his future"(Then think about the rate of blacks thrown in jail and thrown in jail for same crimes as other races or lesser crimes then rape). Or the accountability for Zimmerman who followed, engaged, and murdered an unarmed 17 yr old boy by his own instigation. Or the countless cases of police brutality going all the way back to 1960s before hip hop culture could be blamed. Or a accountability for a justice system which everyone admits has been messed up for YEARS. Or corrupt majority white politicians, judges, police forces etc etc etc for yrs upon yrs upon yrs.

Blacks need to hold themselves accountable. Yet a majority white, educated, and professional government sure are quick to point the finger and take no responsibility. If our leaders and people in position of power aren't willing to accept any real responsibility or hold themselves accountable even though they are more educated, dedicated professionals in there fields and in positions of power. How can we expect civilians to? How about using these positions of power to demonstrate what accountability is all about.

The only accountability which matter is to yourself.
In fact man has no other. All other accountability is a lie.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

misterearl wrote:arkrud and gonygo - please stop with the stereotypical descriptions. Family is the most important thing to everyone.

Every single person.

When people refer to family structure, they are talking about the nuclear family, a couple and their dependent children, it is as a basic social unit. It takes two committed parents, working hard and sacrificing for their children with cultural norms establishing direction and guidance from birth. In all those other minorities mentioned, education is stressed and monitored. It is not a sterotype to say that there has been a degradation of nuclear familes in black communities where the out of wedlock birthrate among blacks is 72% resulting in a preponderance of single parent households with many reliance on welfare. Study after study show that people of all races with high rates of out of wedlock births suffer higher unemployment and higher crime rates and black author Tom Sowell has cited this in his studies as a prime driver for the disprpotinate crime rates and income levels of blacks. The cultural norm that accept bearing children without benefit of marriage-72%- and absent fathers is a major issue facing black America going forward and needs to recognized and addressed by the black community to change and escape a culture of poverty for so many

Cool, we'll just keep getting shot and suffer injustice until you feel like we've cleaned our act up enough for you to stop pertifogging the issue and actually giving a damn. Hope your age-old anecdotes about how we are the worst ethnic group gets you to sleep at night.

Childish response. I would not be surprised if I've volunteered more in poor black communities that you have, it's not to cleanse my soul but to simply help. Started in hs and the younger generation of family continues the tradition of volunteering to the less fortunate. Just last month my nephew collected alot of used lax equipment that is quite expensive to donate to Harlem Lacrosse in addition to teaching the sport. I cite a serious and pertinent issue backed by facts that undermine black communities and do so not to the exclusion or dismissal of other points. You should not limit the scope of contributing factors if you want to make true progress

Blakcs don't benifit from poor family structure, poor education, and division. So if these are the issues permitting blacks from advancing why do you believe that blacks choose to ignore these issues.

Your question gets to the crux of accountability. Do you think out of wedlock births is something within a person's control and can be reduced? Do you think it would be better for children to be raised in a nuclear family than by a single parent ?Do you think the learning environment can be improved by disciplining or removing unruly kids from the classroom ? Do you think that it is better to take a job that affords growth potential even if it may pay less than welfare?

The supposed lack of traditional family value structure... do you think that may be tied to the issue that 1/3 of black men under 40 serve time in prison... for crimes that white men do not go to prison for when they commit the same crime? Read the New Jim Crow. It talks very well about how the supposed lack of nuclear families is tied inextricably to the institutional racism that fills up our for profit prisons. Seriously, read it. It addresses exactly what you are talking about, but deals with facts.

Also, this - every time a cop shoots first and kills a black man for no reason, guess what? That's another nuclear family down the drain.

If I could pick one thing that is biggest of the core issues its the bold. Its why I am so disgusted with our drug laws. There is no more racial and economic bias set of laws. Whites go to rehab and come out with praise. Minorities and poor go to jail and come out felons. Best part, is that now you can shoot em. White cop shoots colored man (turns out he was felon). See how that works?

When the playing field is even remotely level looking at family structure is a nice new set of data. There are such bigger obstacles that at this point we dont even know if thats an obstacle.

Great point Fish....most black inmates come home in worse shape than when they went in...i see it first hand.

on one of my trips to denmark (i am of scandinavian descent) the subject of world war two came up when i was staying with my danish host, and eventually the discussion turned to the jews. my friend explained to me that the reason why the jews of denmark were saved by their fellow danes, was because their fellow danes regarded those they saved as danes who happened to be jewish, as contrasted with the idea that those that were saved were jews who happened to be danish. put succinctly, theres a difference between being a "jewish dane" and a "danish jew."

the lesson there was that it really came down to perceptions, both self-perception and how others (fellow citizens) perceive you. obviously, the jews of germany had the conceit that they were germans first and foremost who happened to be jewish, but that perception became reversed in a radical shift (hitler and the demonization of jews) that caught them unawares, to the point that most of them perished by stubbornly refusing to see the new reality in which they were trapped.

i wonder if there isn't some sort of parallel in our country in terms of self-perceptions among the so-called "races." after all, racism is learned, not innate. i for one want to see a ****-ton of money put into primary care, pre-k, and grammar schools in every black community.

arkrud wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

misterearl wrote:arkrud and gonygo - please stop with the stereotypical descriptions. Family is the most important thing to everyone.

Every single person.

When people refer to family structure, they are talking about the nuclear family, a couple and their dependent children, it is as a basic social unit. It takes two committed parents, working hard and sacrificing for their children with cultural norms establishing direction and guidance from birth. In all those other minorities mentioned, education is stressed and monitored. It is not a sterotype to say that there has been a degradation of nuclear familes in black communities where the out of wedlock birthrate among blacks is 72% resulting in a preponderance of single parent households with many reliance on welfare. Study after study show that people of all races with high rates of out of wedlock births suffer higher unemployment and higher crime rates and black author Tom Sowell has cited this in his studies as a prime driver for the disprpotinate crime rates and income levels of blacks. The cultural norm that accept bearing children without benefit of marriage-72%- and absent fathers is a major issue facing black America going forward and needs to recognized and addressed by the black community to change and escape a culture of poverty for so many

Cool, we'll just keep getting shot and suffer injustice until you feel like we've cleaned our act up enough for you to stop pertifogging the issue and actually giving a damn. Hope your age-old anecdotes about how we are the worst ethnic group gets you to sleep at night.

Childish response. I would not be surprised if I've volunteered more in poor black communities that you have, it's not to cleanse my soul but to simply help. Started in hs and the younger generation of family continues the tradition of volunteering to the less fortunate. Just last month my nephew collected alot of used lax equipment that is quite expensive to donate to Harlem Lacrosse in addition to teaching the sport. I cite a serious and pertinent issue backed by facts that undermine black communities and do so not to the exclusion or dismissal of other points. You should not limit the scope of contributing factors if you want to make true progress

Blakcs don't benifit from poor family structure, poor education, and division. So if these are the issues permitting blacks from advancing why do you believe that blacks choose to ignore these issues.

Your question gets to the crux of accountability. Do you think out of wedlock births is something within a person's control and can be reduced? Do you think it would be better for children to be raised in a nuclear family than by a single parent ?Do you think the learning environment can be improved by disciplining or removing unruly kids from the classroom ? Do you think that it is better to take a job that affords growth potential even if it may pay less than welfare?

The supposed lack of traditional family value structure... do you think that may be tied to the issue that 1/3 of black men under 40 serve time in prison... for crimes that white men do not go to prison for when they commit the same crime? Read the New Jim Crow. It talks very well about how the supposed lack of nuclear families is tied inextricably to the institutional racism that fills up our for profit prisons. Seriously, read it. It addresses exactly what you are talking about, but deals with facts.

Also, this - every time a cop shoots first and kills a black man for no reason, guess what? That's another nuclear family down the drain.

If I could pick one thing that is biggest of the core issues its the bold. Its why I am so disgusted with our drug laws. There is no more racial and economic bias set of laws. Whites go to rehab and come out with praise. Minorities and poor go to jail and come out felons. Best part, is that now you can shoot em. White cop shoots colored man (turns out he was felon). See how that works?

When the playing field is even remotely level looking at family structure is a nice new set of data. There are such bigger obstacles that at this point we dont even know if thats an obstacle.

Great point Fish....most black inmates come home in worse shape than when they went in...i see it first hand.

Classic chicken and egg problem.
Blacks commit crime because they were put in prison and they were put in prison because they committed crime.
To get out of this logical dilemma the argument is that for the same crime blacks go to jail and whites go home or to rehab.
If this is correct Unites States are without the shadow of the doubt a racist state and instead on traffic stops? Mind-bugging...
Why our bellowed president, good friends of African Americans from democratic party, and even most of the people who claim to be activist for racial equality are not talking about this practice and not doing anything to stop it and focus instead on traffic stops? Mind-bugging...

Blacks do not commit more crime then whites. We are more likely to be arrested for the same crime. More likely to be convicted and more likely to be incarcerated for the same crime though.

newyorknewyork wrote:

arkrud wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

misterearl wrote:arkrud and gonygo - please stop with the stereotypical descriptions. Family is the most important thing to everyone.

Every single person.

When people refer to family structure, they are talking about the nuclear family, a couple and their dependent children, it is as a basic social unit. It takes two committed parents, working hard and sacrificing for their children with cultural norms establishing direction and guidance from birth. In all those other minorities mentioned, education is stressed and monitored. It is not a sterotype to say that there has been a degradation of nuclear familes in black communities where the out of wedlock birthrate among blacks is 72% resulting in a preponderance of single parent households with many reliance on welfare. Study after study show that people of all races with high rates of out of wedlock births suffer higher unemployment and higher crime rates and black author Tom Sowell has cited this in his studies as a prime driver for the disprpotinate crime rates and income levels of blacks. The cultural norm that accept bearing children without benefit of marriage-72%- and absent fathers is a major issue facing black America going forward and needs to recognized and addressed by the black community to change and escape a culture of poverty for so many

Cool, we'll just keep getting shot and suffer injustice until you feel like we've cleaned our act up enough for you to stop pertifogging the issue and actually giving a damn. Hope your age-old anecdotes about how we are the worst ethnic group gets you to sleep at night.

Childish response. I would not be surprised if I've volunteered more in poor black communities that you have, it's not to cleanse my soul but to simply help. Started in hs and the younger generation of family continues the tradition of volunteering to the less fortunate. Just last month my nephew collected alot of used lax equipment that is quite expensive to donate to Harlem Lacrosse in addition to teaching the sport. I cite a serious and pertinent issue backed by facts that undermine black communities and do so not to the exclusion or dismissal of other points. You should not limit the scope of contributing factors if you want to make true progress

Blakcs don't benifit from poor family structure, poor education, and division. So if these are the issues permitting blacks from advancing why do you believe that blacks choose to ignore these issues.

Your question gets to the crux of accountabilty. Do you think out of wedlock births is something within a person's control and can be reduced? Do you think it would be better for children to be raised in a nuclear family than by a single parent ?Do you think the learning environment can be improved by disciplining or removing unruly kids from the classroom ? Do you think that it is better to take a job that affords growth potential even if it may pay less than welfare?

Question wasn't answered.

There is no end game to blaming the white man. There is no reward for blacks at the end of it. In theory claiming there is no white privilege could be viewed as a hustle because the white man would actually benefit from white privilege. So to claim it doesn't exist would in fact benefit said white person.

I want to play with theory. Blacks as a whole don't benefit from poor education(which may lead to crime), single parent families(which may lead to crime), or crime. On the other hand government in theory could benefit from crime through profit. People can invest in prisons. If you invest in a prison your whole purpose in that investment is for people to go to jail in order to make profit. And in theory its possible for government to do everything in its power to maximize profit.

To say blacks aren't accountable would be inaccurate. We are accountable with our lives. Blacks who aren't educated usually end up in jail and or dead. And blacks who are educated have to be far superior then their peers in their fields in order to kill stereotypes and move up the ladder. So in theory blacks choose jail and death over education and family values. Even though it doesn't benefit us in any way. All so we could blame the white man at the end of the day and avoid accountability. Which we are held to regardless due to poverty, jail, death. And government would like nothing more then to not make profit over crime but are forced to due to blacks criminality. Then you see stats like blacks being put in jail at a higher rate for the same crimes. Which leads to accountability, but where is the accountability for the other races? Which leads to the possibility of white privilege and profit being made off of a race of people who have been thrown in jail at an alarming rate.

Since we are on about accountability though. Where was the accountability for the Stanford rapist? Which "jail will have a negative effect on his future"(Then think about the rate of blacks thrown in jail and thrown in jail for same crimes as other races or lesser crimes then rape). Or the accountability for Zimmerman who followed, engaged, and murdered an unarmed 17 yr old boy by his own instigation. Or the countless cases of police brutality going all the way back to 1960s before hip hop culture could be blamed. Or a accountability for a justice system which everyone admits has been messed up for YEARS. Or corrupt majority white politicians, judges, police forces etc etc etc for yrs upon yrs upon yrs.

Blacks need to hold themselves accountable. Yet a majority white, educated, and professional government sure are quick to point the finger and take no responsibility. If our leaders and people in position of power aren't willing to accept any real responsibility or hold themselves accountable even though they are more educated, dedicated professionals in there fields and in positions of power. How can we expect civilians to? How about using these positions of power to demonstrate what accountability is all about.

The only accountability which matter is to yourself.
In fact man has no other. All other accountability is a lie.

So Philando Castile who worked for public education, complied with the law when pulled over and murdered in his car by a scared police officer. Died because he didn't hold himself accountable enough.

If he did until the moment he died he is fine.
The people who lived watching him die are not.
Now we all accountable to our-self.

arkrud - you have no clue what the community of St Paul Minnesota is experiencing today. Visiting the 34th annual Rondo community festival, in STP Minnesota this afternoon, the anguish and emotion is real among all people. Philando Castile, a beloved member of the community, would have celebrated his 33rd birthday today.

He just completed a course in "how to comply with police officers."

meloanyk wrote:FYI Akrud, I have not read this 'The New JIm Crwo" yet but I will read since it is important book but what is not acknowledged here by certain posters is that Arican American activists and black political leaders wanted tougher crackdown on drugs and crime which were destroying black urban neighborhoods. Read Black Silent Majority written by Michael Javen Fortner. Black public opinion supported stricter crime policies and black caucuses stamped the policies of Rockefeller, Reagan and Hillary Clinton's husband who signed the crime bill of 1994 as there were 11 million violent crimes and 32 million thefts or burglaries in 1993. To charge there was a white conspiracy behind legislation without mentioning black support for it is faulty . So is saying prisons are profitable entities as every structure built, staffed and maintained involves contractors, administration, staff and ongoing operating costs which are normally offset by revenue streams. All there is with prisons are staggering expenses with no revenues that have strained federal and state budgets that are passed along to taxpayers. Sentencing did become harsher as intended and crime rates fell especially in black urban areas which improved daily lives and saved lives of blacks as well as whites. In areas like DC which were then run by black politicians sentencing was harsher than in other areas like Detroit that were dominated by white politicians . Over fifteen years , the crackdown on crime vastly expanded incarceration and blacks had disproportionate numbers to population though trends in the last six years are falling. It should be known that drug offenders accounted for only 20-25% of the prison population over the past twenty years and the vast majority of those were for hard drugs and trafficking rather than numbers of marijuana possesion only that were miniscule <1%. Another distinction, jail isnt prison but sometimes you see these stats commingled to distort. As a law abiding person, I have been in jail twice but never in prison. Is should not be taken as a racist statement to point out the factual reality that there has been a much higher propensity of blacks to commit violent crimes than whites or any group which is the bulk of prison sentences and that account for at least some of the observed racial disparities in prison populations. The biggest flaw imo was harsh sentencing coming out of the 94 crime bill for crimes like minor burglaries and sentences for non violent drug addicts rather than rehab programs. They also defunded education programs. My take is that class disparities are more important than racial disparities and it all relates to education. The war on crime starting with Rockefeller did not escalate incarceration rates for black men; with college education but actually decrease since the 1970s. Conversely, the incarceration rates for whites without college education have grown considerably since the 1960s. Lastly, my fear is given the present climate agaisnt police, there will be less policing in areas that need it the most and that crime will rise in the same urban areas that are now denser in populations than before.. The black middle class has grown over the years and changes should help it grow rather than stunt. Work out the flaws but dont let drugs and crime flourish again. This will be my last post on this thread. Good luck

Obviously the race is just a distraction.
Everybody knows that poverty is the root of the crime.
It is no German Americans or Italian Americans.
When it will be no African Americans and no White Americans we will all be better of.
But it will take long time to get there.
To many people on both side did not want to let go. To profitable and to convenient.

misterearl wrote:

arkrud wrote:

misterearl wrote:BS

mekoanyk - Higher propensity?

I have been in jail twice but never in prison. Is should not be taken as a racist statement to point out the factual reality that there has been a much higher propensity of blacks to commit violent crimes than whites or any group which is the bulk of prison sentences and that account for at least some of the observed racial disparities in prison populations.

Care to cite facts?

Higher "propensity" than the Charleston church butcher dylann roof, Aurora CO movie mass killer James E. Holmes, Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, and Sandy Hook elementary school (ELEMENTARY SCHOOL) mass killer Adam Lanza?

Educating people is tiring.

You did not like when black people are generalized but you like to generalize white people.
It is sad to see education in hate.

arkrud - no generalization. Those are the facts to refute meloannyk's "propensity" remark.

If you cannot comprehend the context, stay out of it.

Can you explain what "education in hate" is? The truth is a scary thing for a reason. It challenges privilege.

I agree that is it your fight.
But there are a lot of bystanders who hit with stray bullets.
You will not gain anything without dialog.
Talking to yourself is madness.
If you want another man death produce nothing but more hate you are on the right path.