meloshouldgo wrote:

smackeddog wrote:So, to summarise, Melo is waiting for Lebron to decide, who is waiting for Bosh, who is waiting for Lebron. Stalemate.

It's pretty obvious Melo doesn't really want to be back- we're probably his third choice at the moment.

Not true. Melo is waiting on Lebron, who is waiting on Bosh, who is waiting on Houston, who is waiting on the Sixes to accept Lin. Another OC season in NY Conrad down to what happens to Jeremy Lin. LOL

So by offering Amar'e and Shump to the Sixers, Phil is actually trying to block Lin being traded there, thus blocking Houstons attempts to sign Bosh, thus stopping Bosh leaving Miami, thus stopping Melo replacing Bosh?

smackeddog wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

smackeddog wrote:So, to summarise, Melo is waiting for Lebron to decide, who is waiting for Bosh, who is waiting for Lebron. Stalemate.

It's pretty obvious Melo doesn't really want to be back- we're probably his third choice at the moment.

Not true. Melo is waiting on Lebron, who is waiting on Bosh, who is waiting on Houston, who is waiting on the Sixes to accept Lin. Another OC season in NY Conrad down to what happens to Jeremy Lin. LOL

So by offering Amar'e and Shump to the Sixers, Phil is actually trying to block Lin being traded there, thus blocking Houstons attempts to sign Bosh, thus stopping Bosh leaving Miami, thus stopping Melo replacing Bosh?

Amare was great with our young guys. I thought he had a really positive impact on Chandler and Gallo and Lin as well for that matter. I could actually see Phili seeing that addition as a positive. Sure it will cost us something but I think they might see that as more then just aquiring assets.

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Rookie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Rookie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

smackeddog wrote:That Realgm poster who broke the Jason Kidd to Bucks thing 2 days before it happened, was claiming that Melo and Pau are going to the Knicks, and that they have trades lined up and will also sign Lebron- ha! Anyone actually believe that crap?!

Melo is definitely up to something- I think the rumour of him going to Miami IF Bosh goes to Houston makes the most sense- otherwise there's no reason for this long delay.

I hope so because just paying Melo $129m like most seem to want is an outright disaster. Its the worst possible scenario actually. I don't even think Melo is that dumb. Phil certainly isnt

guns... nobody *wants* that. Its simply the better alternative to having him walk for nothing. Even if you give him that you can still sign a max guy next offseason. You can still use the draft. You can still make good trades and aquire assets and young players.

Knicks front office was retarded BEFORE Melo got here. Dont blame him for their bad moves. Hell if we dont have Amare and his horrible deal we probably send Bargs and THrj to Phili and Lebron and MElo are Knicks next year. Who knows. The point is paying Melo isnt and shouldnt be the issue.

How good do you think this team is going to be and how attractive to FAs? I said it looks a little below a .500 team but I don't think you gave your prediction.

sorry I missed this.

I think as curently constructed about 50 wins. Much more like the team two years ago than last years team. There will be more changes but this is good team with Melo back. We needed better guard play and we really upgraded that area. Despite being a rookie I expect great things from Fisher and for Phil to put him in a position to succeed and back him up.

If the season started today I would start:
PG Calderon
SG JR
SF Shump
PF MElo
C Dalembert
bench: Larkin/Amare/THjr/Cole

upside:
contract years for Shump/Amare/Bargs (notice I didnt include Bargs in my rotation. If he contributes great)
We know Larkin is great in the P&R so I bring him and Amare off the bench and get that going. Defense will suck but they will score. Thats a nice bench pop.
JR isnt as good as he was two years ago, but not as bad as last year

Downside: health. Guys break down etc... but we saw two years ago after extablishing a style of play different guys can step in.

Thats what I see. Im sure the metrics hate us but I remember those metrics predictions you posted and they were a joke. Got the Knicks right, and that was about it.

Not sure how that line up wins 50 games. Three of those guys wouldn't be starting on a good team. I think 37-40 wins tops

and yet we won 54 games staring Melo/Chandler/Felton and a revolving door of Ronnie Brewer, Shump, Prigs, Kidd, Copeland, James White, KMart and Kurt Thomas. Go figure. Time will tell...

honestly, I don't think Melo resigns w/that line up. One of the few Melo quotes we have in the offseason is that he doesn't war to go through another 37 win season

you may be right. Time will tell.

the schoene prediction model will tell before time does, just like it did last season.

your lineup is not good at all. maybe 40 wins.

calderon is a sieve defensively and as a pass first point guard is squandered in the triangle.

alternatively is jackson going to have smith run the triangle?!? or melo?!? LOL.

shumpert is out of position and undersized at small forward. and is he going to guard the other team's pg? or is that on smith?

so in order to use calderon properly the triangle is not really ideal which means that whatever offense is run it will involve smith and melo getting the vast majority of the shots, and that has proven to be a bad idea come playoff time.

your lineup is garbage and no way gets 50 wins.

Im not going to debate any of your other points but IMO your assessment of Calderon is off. He is actually perfect for the triangle and not squandered at all. Take a look at his shot charts. He is one of the best mid range and three point shooting PG's in the entire league. Super, super efficient.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0712/grant_jose_calderon.jpg

maybe, but he is known for running the pick and roll which would be taken away. also, correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't the point guard quite often end up taking corner threes in the triangle? that has been my impression. his corner three percentages do not inspire.

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Rookie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Rookie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

smackeddog wrote:That Realgm poster who broke the Jason Kidd to Bucks thing 2 days before it happened, was claiming that Melo and Pau are going to the Knicks, and that they have trades lined up and will also sign Lebron- ha! Anyone actually believe that crap?!

Melo is definitely up to something- I think the rumour of him going to Miami IF Bosh goes to Houston makes the most sense- otherwise there's no reason for this long delay.

I hope so because just paying Melo $129m like most seem to want is an outright disaster. Its the worst possible scenario actually. I don't even think Melo is that dumb. Phil certainly isnt

guns... nobody *wants* that. Its simply the better alternative to having him walk for nothing. Even if you give him that you can still sign a max guy next offseason. You can still use the draft. You can still make good trades and aquire assets and young players.

Knicks front office was retarded BEFORE Melo got here. Dont blame him for their bad moves. Hell if we dont have Amare and his horrible deal we probably send Bargs and THrj to Phili and Lebron and MElo are Knicks next year. Who knows. The point is paying Melo isnt and shouldnt be the issue.

How good do you think this team is going to be and how attractive to FAs? I said it looks a little below a .500 team but I don't think you gave your prediction.

sorry I missed this.

I think as curently constructed about 50 wins. Much more like the team two years ago than last years team. There will be more changes but this is good team with Melo back. We needed better guard play and we really upgraded that area. Despite being a rookie I expect great things from Fisher and for Phil to put him in a position to succeed and back him up.

If the season started today I would start:
PG Calderon
SG JR
SF Shump
PF MElo
C Dalembert
bench: Larkin/Amare/THjr/Cole

upside:
contract years for Shump/Amare/Bargs (notice I didnt include Bargs in my rotation. If he contributes great)
We know Larkin is great in the P&R so I bring him and Amare off the bench and get that going. Defense will suck but they will score. Thats a nice bench pop.
JR isnt as good as he was two years ago, but not as bad as last year

Downside: health. Guys break down etc... but we saw two years ago after extablishing a style of play different guys can step in.

Thats what I see. Im sure the metrics hate us but I remember those metrics predictions you posted and they were a joke. Got the Knicks right, and that was about it.

Not sure how that line up wins 50 games. Three of those guys wouldn't be starting on a good team. I think 37-40 wins tops

and yet we won 54 games staring Melo/Chandler/Felton and a revolving door of Ronnie Brewer, Shump, Prigs, Kidd, Copeland, James White, KMart and Kurt Thomas. Go figure. Time will tell...

honestly, I don't think Melo resigns w/that line up. One of the few Melo quotes we have in the offseason is that he doesn't war to go through another 37 win season

you may be right. Time will tell.

the schoene prediction model will tell before time does, just like it did last season.

your lineup is not good at all. maybe 40 wins.

calderon is a sieve defensively and as a pass first point guard is squandered in the triangle.

alternatively is jackson going to have smith run the triangle?!? or melo?!? LOL.

shumpert is out of position and undersized at small forward. and is he going to guard the other team's pg? or is that on smith?

so in order to use calderon properly the triangle is not really ideal which means that whatever offense is run it will involve smith and melo getting the vast majority of the shots, and that has proven to be a bad idea come playoff time.

your lineup is garbage and no way gets 50 wins.

Im not going to debate any of your other points but IMO your assessment of Calderon is off. He is actually perfect for the triangle and not squandered at all. Take a look at his shot charts. He is one of the best mid range and three point shooting PG's in the entire league. Super, super efficient.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0712/grant_jose_calderon.jpg

Is it fair to say Felton's poor shooting derailed the Knicks season? Maybe not... but when you consider JR started the month suspended then followed it with a sub 40% shooting month, and all Shumpert's goose eggs, THjr being all over the place... the Knicks become very easy to defend from the year prior.. Pack the paint, force Melo into jumpers and let the Knicks shoot themselves out of the game. When Novak, Copeland, Kidd, JR, etc we hitting shots we were a different team. Calderon is a nice step towards fixing that problem.

Calderon does NOT miss his open jumpers. The guy is money. Hes a great floor spacer. I think his impact goes well beyond the dozen or so PPG you get from him.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

The problem with this though is that there will always be teams willing to outbid you. Frye and Meeks got hefty contracts in free agency. Only teams that are able to get guys under reasonable contracts are contenders.

Orlando Magic 23 wins last year, rebuilding: Channing Frye 32mil over 4yrs

LA Clippers 57 wins last year, contender: Spencer Hawes 23mil over 4yrs.

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Rookie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Rookie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

smackeddog wrote:That Realgm poster who broke the Jason Kidd to Bucks thing 2 days before it happened, was claiming that Melo and Pau are going to the Knicks, and that they have trades lined up and will also sign Lebron- ha! Anyone actually believe that crap?!

Melo is definitely up to something- I think the rumour of him going to Miami IF Bosh goes to Houston makes the most sense- otherwise there's no reason for this long delay.

I hope so because just paying Melo $129m like most seem to want is an outright disaster. Its the worst possible scenario actually. I don't even think Melo is that dumb. Phil certainly isnt

guns... nobody *wants* that. Its simply the better alternative to having him walk for nothing. Even if you give him that you can still sign a max guy next offseason. You can still use the draft. You can still make good trades and aquire assets and young players.

Knicks front office was retarded BEFORE Melo got here. Dont blame him for their bad moves. Hell if we dont have Amare and his horrible deal we probably send Bargs and THrj to Phili and Lebron and MElo are Knicks next year. Who knows. The point is paying Melo isnt and shouldnt be the issue.

How good do you think this team is going to be and how attractive to FAs? I said it looks a little below a .500 team but I don't think you gave your prediction.

sorry I missed this.

I think as curently constructed about 50 wins. Much more like the team two years ago than last years team. There will be more changes but this is good team with Melo back. We needed better guard play and we really upgraded that area. Despite being a rookie I expect great things from Fisher and for Phil to put him in a position to succeed and back him up.

If the season started today I would start:
PG Calderon
SG JR
SF Shump
PF MElo
C Dalembert
bench: Larkin/Amare/THjr/Cole

upside:
contract years for Shump/Amare/Bargs (notice I didnt include Bargs in my rotation. If he contributes great)
We know Larkin is great in the P&R so I bring him and Amare off the bench and get that going. Defense will suck but they will score. Thats a nice bench pop.
JR isnt as good as he was two years ago, but not as bad as last year

Downside: health. Guys break down etc... but we saw two years ago after extablishing a style of play different guys can step in.

Thats what I see. Im sure the metrics hate us but I remember those metrics predictions you posted and they were a joke. Got the Knicks right, and that was about it.

Not sure how that line up wins 50 games. Three of those guys wouldn't be starting on a good team. I think 37-40 wins tops

and yet we won 54 games staring Melo/Chandler/Felton and a revolving door of Ronnie Brewer, Shump, Prigs, Kidd, Copeland, James White, KMart and Kurt Thomas. Go figure. Time will tell...

honestly, I don't think Melo resigns w/that line up. One of the few Melo quotes we have in the offseason is that he doesn't war to go through another 37 win season

you may be right. Time will tell.

the schoene prediction model will tell before time does, just like it did last season.

your lineup is not good at all. maybe 40 wins.

calderon is a sieve defensively and as a pass first point guard is squandered in the triangle.

alternatively is jackson going to have smith run the triangle?!? or melo?!? LOL.

shumpert is out of position and undersized at small forward. and is he going to guard the other team's pg? or is that on smith?

so in order to use calderon properly the triangle is not really ideal which means that whatever offense is run it will involve smith and melo getting the vast majority of the shots, and that has proven to be a bad idea come playoff time.

your lineup is garbage and no way gets 50 wins.

Im not going to debate any of your other points but IMO your assessment of Calderon is off. He is actually perfect for the triangle and not squandered at all. Take a look at his shot charts. He is one of the best mid range and three point shooting PG's in the entire league. Super, super efficient.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0712/grant_jose_calderon.jpg

maybe, but he is known for running the pick and roll which would be taken away. also, correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't the point guard quite often end up taking corner threes in the triangle? that has been my impression. his corner three percentages do not inspire.

Just my opinion, but I think you're grasping for straws here a bit. Sure, Calderon is old and not a good defender but he is still indubitably a wonderfully efficient offensive player. Also, in the shot chart I posted he is hitting 39% and 41% in the corners...Those percentages from three are quite good in terms of eFG%. Also: Phil Jackson obviously thinks he can thrive in the triangle.

Anyway, you seem dead set on not conceding an inch on any of the points you made about the lineup that was posted being "garbage". I only took exception to one part of your argument. I actually agreed with the other assessments you made, more or less. Just not the part about Calderon. But we can agree to disagree about that!

we won't be disagreeing if he creates more on offense than he gives up on defense. my point is that jackson can't afford to bring in negative-sum players. we have had enough zero-sum and negative-sum players for a while now.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

The problem with this though is that there will always be teams willing to outbid you. Frye and Meeks got hefty contracts in free agency. Only teams that are able to get guys under reasonable contracts are contenders.

Orlando Magic 23 wins last year, rebuilding: Channing Frye 32mil over 4yrs

LA Clippers 57 wins last year, contender: Spencer Hawes 23mil over 4yrs.

not really. There are always guys everyone missed out on but the metrics didn't miss out on. I would have offered much more for Mills. I talked previously about giving much more than the 2 year contract to Paul Millsap. I kept saying we should accumulate our assets to trade for Harden.
And I just do this as a small hobby. There are far more examples that someone who does this for a living can spot.

agreed. you clearly have an eye for real value. but not infallible-- for that we have the pope.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

The problem with this though is that there will always be teams willing to outbid you. Frye and Meeks got hefty contracts in free agency. Only teams that are able to get guys under reasonable contracts are contenders.

Orlando Magic 23 wins last year, rebuilding: Channing Frye 32mil over 4yrs

LA Clippers 57 wins last year, contender: Spencer Hawes 23mil over 4yrs.

not really. There are always guys everyone missed out on but the metrics didn't miss out on. I would have offered much more for Mills. I talked previously about giving much more than the 2 year contract to Paul Millsap. I kept saying we should accumulate our assets to trade for Harden.
And I just do this as a small hobby. There are far more examples that someone who does this for a living can spot.

The guys that I really wanted over the last few years are Milsap, Lowry, West and of course Bargnanai :-)