gunsnewing wrote:He was one of the ones arguing on my side that although Melo was having a great year he was light years behind Lebron and Durant for MVP. When people were making Melo for MVP threads

Well everyone on the planet knows that. I think he was also calling the same "inefficient donkey" a solid 3rd place candidate even back then.

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:He used to call him an inefficient Donkee! lol

And that was when he shot .459 in Denver as opposed to .448 in NY?

No in NY. He changed his tune some point last year. Probably during the playoffs when everyone was dreadful including Melo

Although Felton and Shumpert actually played well

When Melo first got here I was kinda meh because I didnt like the trade. I always recognized him as a great scorer, but the face of a franchise? Maybe yours but not mine. Then I was instantly turned off by the flood of "Melo is a natural leader" threads declaring the sky is now the limit (I liked STAT better).

I really hated the MDA drama also. Im not going to say MDA was a great coach but I thought a seven seconds offensive attack around Amare and Melo could have been sick, but Melo quit on MDA and I really held that against him. My thought was OK Melo... you got the coach kicked out of town lets see what you do with the next guy.

and he did pretty damn good. I was not a Melo fan but had to begrudge his excellent play when Woodson took over.

I was trying to think of a turning point when I stopped disliking Melo and started to appreciate his game more, and I think it probably had to do with him playing PF. Him being there created more space and guys really started to thrive.

I really enjoyed last year. We had great veterans with nothing left in the tank give us some good moments (Kidd, Sheed, KT, etc) but when I watched mostly what I saw was Melo beasting and some old guys saavy enough to take advantage and make plays next to him. Guys like Novak and Copeland looked like studs because defenses were keying in on stopping the NBA's leading scorer.

Did I become a Melo fan? A Melo lover? No. Never have been.

Did I think he deserved 3rd in MVP votes? Hell yea
Did I think his play was the motor that drove that ship to 54 wins? I KNOW that.

Here's the thing though... Melo has gotten better since being here. He plays more defense. He may not always be a good defender, but he always stays with his man and doesnt lose his man.

His rebounding has improved. His shooting has improved. His passing is more often. Granted he may pass it, the ball swings around and Melo still eventually shoots it but others get touches.

He is a top 10 player in the league. He deserves his 6 all NBA 2nd and 3rd team elections. He's not Lebron or KD. They are better. But in the last 10 years Melo is has proven to be a top NBA player, and an elite forward. Look at who beat him out year after year for first team NBA: Lebron. KD. KG. Dirk. Duncan. Those are basically the 5 guys. Seems to be the biggest knock on Melo is he's a notch below 5-6 guys who are all first ballot HOFers. Thats the biggest knock?

I have always been objective with MElo.

I was the one (only last year?) who posted his playoff failures. I went through every one of his box scores. While I agree he has not had great help I held him accountable as his playoff losses have a direct corelation to games where he shoots poorly and my big knock on him has always been consistency.

I dont expect everyone to love Melo or even like him, but he's a star player. You dont combine for what? 6 all team NBA and 8 all star games if you suck. Does he have consistancy issues? Hell yea. Does his shot selection suck at times? Hell yea. Does he have an elite skill set? Yes. Can he take over NBA games and carry a team for long stretches? He has proven this.

I dont care that TKF hates Melo. Its fine. I dont understand that level of dedicated hate for someone you dont have any personal contact with but OK. That being said the Melo-loser, fat Melo, this guy is a joke in every every every thread is old, does nothing to create discussion and has no basis for reality.

Im fine with him being traded. I view Melo as a great player. His career playoff failures or not, he is on a HOF path, and thats not debatable. Advanced stats didnt keep nique out of the HOF and they wont keep Melo out either. Unless he gets hurt he will be in the HOF, and even if he does he still might make it. Scoring means something. But first and foremost he's an asset. He's playing at a very high level and this notion the Knicks would be better off if he walked for nothing is insulting to everyone's intelligence (which says alot as DK has exposed us as all pretty stupid).

Thats it. Im done with this thread. If they continue to do this I will continue to engage them when I need a laugh, work is slow, or Im just in the mood

I have never EVER blasted anyone for not loving Melo's game or not appreciating it or calling out his shortcomings. I have done the same. I WILL blast the "MElo cant defend because he has slow feet and is lazy (DK)" or "Melo is a career loser (TFK)" because these arent basketball comments. They are garbage comments by guys who have been thrown off other forums for spamming threads there in a similar fashion. Calling it what it is.

Thats all I have to say about that

I think those boys needs some ice cream

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough. I hope That with Phil here Melo elevates his game. Not sure he has it in him. His basketball IQ did not come as natural to him as Jordan and Kobe. He is not the same player physically to give 100% effort on both ends. His footwork isn't great. Good playoff teams know how to defend him. Unless he is HOT BALLS from outside the Knicks always lose. You don't know if he should play SF or PF especially in the players where guys are quicker and more physical.

I trust Phil going forward to either elevate Melo or replace him with high BASKETBALL IQ players with motors that run at 100% locking down on every possession. Playing D with their feet not getting lazy and reach with hands etc. Phil's presense alone should elevate the energy and focus

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough. I hope That with Phil here Melo elevates his game. Not sure he has it in him. His basketball IQ did not come as natural to him as Jordan and Kobe. He is not the same player physically to give 100% effort on both ends. His footwork isn't great. Good playoff teams know how to defend him. Unless he is HOT BALLS from outside the Knicks always lose. You don't know if he should play SF or PF especially in the players where guys are quicker and more physical.

I trust Phil going forward to either elevate Melo or replace him with high BASKETBALL IQ players with motors that run at 100% locking down on every possession. Playing D with their feet not getting lazy and reach with hands etc. Phil's presense alone should elevate the energy and focus

good post guns, and i would like to ask you, since you touched on it. How many players after 13 seasons not only elevate their games, but change their mentality drastically? I think phil would be looking to replace him. I hope he does..

gunsnewing wrote:Gun to my head I say yes to that

Phil is in it to win it not just make he playoffs

Phil is a competitor, I agree with your statement, lets just hope ole jimmy boy is truly hands off...

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:He used to call him an inefficient Donkee! lol

And that was when he shot .459 in Denver as opposed to .448 in NY?

No in NY. He changed his tune some point last year. Probably during the playoffs when everyone was dreadful including Melo

Although Felton and Shumpert actually played well

I did not like the trade. If for no other reason than Dolan stuck his nose into it and underminded Walsh. I thought we had a good young core playing well with STAT and we had big cap space so it didnt make sense to give up all those players.

When Melo first got here I was kinda meh because I didnt like the trade. I always recognized him as a great scorer, but the face of a franchise? Maybe yours but not mine. Then I was instantly turned off by the flood of "Melo is a natural leader" threads declaring the sky is now the limit (I liked STAT better).

I really hated the MDA drama also. Im not going to say MDA was a great coach but I thought a seven seconds offensive attack around Amare and Melo could have been sick, but Melo quit on MDA and I really held that against him. My thought was OK Melo... you got the coach kicked out of town lets see what you do with the next guy.

and he did pretty damn good. I was not a Melo fan but had to begrudge his excellent play when Woodson took over.

I was trying to think of a turning point when I stopped disliking Melo and started to appreciate his game more, and I think it probably had to do with him playing PF. Him being there created more space and guys really started to thrive.

I really enjoyed last year. We had great veterans with nothing left in the tank give us some good moments (Kidd, Sheed, KT, etc) but when I watched mostly what I saw was Melo beasting and some old guys saavy enough to take advantage and make plays next to him. Guys like Novak and Copeland looked like studs because defenses were keying in on stopping the NBA's leading scorer.

Did I become a Melo fan? A Melo lover? No. Never have been.

Did I think he deserved 3rd in MVP votes? Hell yea
Did I think his play was the motor that drove that ship to 54 wins? I KNOW that.

Here's the thing though... Melo has gotten better since being here. He plays more defense. He may not always be a good defender, but he always stays with his man and doesnt lose his man.

His rebounding has improved. His shooting has improved. His passing is more often. Granted he may pass it, the ball swings around and Melo still eventually shoots it but others get touches.

He is a top 10 player in the league. He deserves his 6 all NBA 2nd and 3rd team elections. He's not Lebron or KD. They are better. But in the last 10 years Melo is has proven to be a top NBA player, and an elite forward. Look at who beat him out year after year for first team NBA: Lebron. KD. KG. Dirk. Duncan. Those are basically the 5 guys. Seems to be the biggest knock on Melo is he's a notch below 5-6 guys who are all first ballot HOFers. Thats the biggest knock?

I have always been objective with MElo.

I was the one (only last year?) who posted his playoff failures. I went through every one of his box scores. While I agree he has not had great help I held him accountable as his playoff losses have a direct corelation to games where he shoots poorly and my big knock on him has always been consistency.

I dont expect everyone to love Melo or even like him, but he's a star player. You dont combine for what? 6 all team NBA and 8 all star games if you suck. Does he have consistancy issues? Hell yea. Does his shot selection suck at times? Hell yea. Does he have an elite skill set? Yes. Can he take over NBA games and carry a team for long stretches? He has proven this.

I dont care that TKF hates Melo. Its fine. I dont understand that level of dedicated hate for someone you dont have any personal contact with but OK. That being said the Melo-loser, fat Melo, this guy is a joke in every every every thread is old, does nothing to create discussion and has no basis for reality.

Im fine with him being traded. I view Melo as a great player. His career playoff failures or not, he is on a HOF path, and thats not debatable. Advanced stats didnt keep nique out of the HOF and they wont keep Melo out either. Unless he gets hurt he will be in the HOF, and even if he does he still might make it. Scoring means something. But first and foremost he's an asset. He's playing at a very high level and this notion the Knicks would be better off if he walked for nothing is insulting to everyone's intelligence (which says alot as DK has exposed us as all pretty stupid).

Thats it. Im done with this thread. If they continue to do this I will continue to engage them when I need a laugh, work is slow, or Im just in the mood

I have never EVER blasted anyone for not loving Melo's game or not appreciating it or calling out his shortcomings. I have done the same. I WILL blast the "MElo cant defend because he has slow feet and is lazy (DK)" or "Melo is a career loser (TFK)" because these arent basketball comments. They are garbage comments by guys who have been thrown off other forums for spamming threads there in a similar fashion. Calling it what it is.

Thats all I have to say about that

I think those boys needs some ice cream

This is not the post of a flip-flopper.....This is a post of open-minded realist who does not have an agenda and is not afraid to be objective, hence the realization that Melo was not the devil and in fact should be given the lion's share of credit for last seasons return to the top of the Atlantic. Fish didn't like the trade, so he could have easily lead a "Melo sucks no matter what he does" crusade despite the Knicks having their best season in a decade, Melo finishing 3rd in the MVP voting, winning the scoring title, winning the Atlantic, and doing all of this with Stat being a shell of himself, an average pg, a 38 year old former point guard at the 2 (who retired the second half of the season)and inconsistent and oft injured 2nd yr player playing out of position, and the second most reliable scorer is a 6th man name JR Smith. I repeat, JR Freakin' Smith! If you cannot admit that Melo balled-out last year, then its clear an agenda is involved.

The arguments get really silly and posters lose credibility when they want extinguish any ray of positive light shone on Melo. Or contradict themselves when they point out that Melo never made first team all NBA, but then want to piss on the process that placed Melo 3rd in the MVP voting. Or the typical black and white argument, "Melo is a loser because his teams in Denver didn't advance"....but wont acknowledge that most of his teams lost to the Spurs and Lakers while playing alongside Ruben Patterson and Voshon Lenard in some of those matchups.

Be objective in your arguments is all I'm sayin'.....Kudos Fish.....

His actions and other post speak differently.. sorry Johnny but the glove dont fit..

melo was not the devil and in fact should be given the lion's share of credit for last seasons return to the top of the Atlantic. Fish didn't like the trade, so he could have easily lead a "Melo sucks no matter what he does"

the problem with that post is that it is full of exaggerations... where did anyone, melo haters or not say any of those things.? where?

despite the Knicks having their best season in a decade, Melo finishing 3rd in the MVP voting, winning the scoring title, winning the Atlantic, and doing all of this with Stat being a shell of himself, an average pg, a 38 year old former point guard at the 2 (who retired the second half of the season)and inconsistent and oft injured 2nd yr player playing out of position, and the second most reliable scorer is a 6th man name JR Smith. I repeat, JR Freakin' Smith! If you cannot admit that Melo balled-out last year, then its clear an agenda is involved.

and this is why you get opposition to such post.. you talk about a 38 year old PG who was a critical to the knicks getting off the the fast start as any player on this team.... a fast start that was mainly responsible for them overachieving and winning 54 games... now that 38 PG isn't here and the team is a mess, yet according to some carmelo is having is best year.. so what gives? are you going to blame the other players now.. please give a reasonable explanation as to why this year was so bad.. one that doesn't include carmelo being great and the other guys being bad... This is the flaw in fish argument and your defense of his post... this is a typical straw man argument.. No one ever said he was the devil, or that he sucks, we simple pointed out his flaws, his lack of defense, passing, and his alarmingly bad playoff record.. if you choose to ignore these things, that is on you...

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough. I hope That with Phil here Melo elevates his game. Not sure he has it in him. His basketball IQ did not come as natural to him as Jordan and Kobe. He is not the same player physically to give 100% effort on both ends. His footwork isn't great. Good playoff teams know how to defend him. Unless he is HOT BALLS from outside the Knicks always lose. You don't know if he should play SF or PF especially in the playoffs where guys are quicker and more physical.

I trust Phil going forward to either elevate Melo or replace him with high BASKETBALL IQ players with motors that run at 100% locking down on every possession. Playing D with their feet not getting lazy and reach with hands etc. Phil's presense alone should elevate the energy and focus

Papabear Says

Phil only win championships with superstars lets get this straight.

Papabear wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Gun to my head I say yes to that

Phil is in it to win it not just make he playoffs

Papabear Says

Phil only won with the best player on the planet. Remember when Jordan left Chicago? He won no championship until Michael Jordan came back.

aside from a horrid hugh hollins foul call, the bulls probably win it all in 94 (without mj)

Uptown wrote:TKF,

No doubt, Kidd helped alot in the beginning of the season and helped the Knicks get off to a good start. But he faded, badly, the second half of the season. While he faded, Melo who was having a really good season up until that point, caught fire and won player of the month in April (not bad for a player who supposed to be fat to play his best ball down the stretch of a long season.) The thing is, whenever you talk about last season, you mention Kidd as MVP, you mention Sheed who played a handfull of games, and a few others, but its like pulling a wisdom tooth to get you to admit that Melo had a season worthy of being a top MVP candidate which he was voted to be. When you do this, it lacks objectivity and its hard to take you serious when debating anything Melo.

Now, you asked why the Knicks aren't playing as well as they did last year? First, I'm on record as saying the team overachieved a bit last year. They hit a remarkable amount of 3's last year, and we caught lightening in a bottle with JR (contract year?). Now, all of Melo's supporting players so to speak has had a major dip in play.

Felton is having his worse year as a pro, he's down 4pts from last year, fg% @ 39% and he, quite frankly has been dreadful.
JR has come crashing down to earth, down 5 pts from last year. JR was a presence on the court last year, now he vanishes for weeks at a time.
Stat was better last year, he's down 4 pts per,
I think we can al agree that Chandler had a much better impact on the game last year than this.
Shump seems to be regressing every season since his rookie year and added nothing to his game.

We were more consistant on the defensive end last year. This year, we have our moments, mainly during this recent streak but we've taken a step back defensively and I think thats on Woodson more than anything. We are easy to game plan for because the opposition knows we are going to switch all picks and they usually run rubs from the post or back picks to get mismatches.....With that said, Melo is the leader of the team, se he has to take a hit as well. I understand that and it comes with the territory. I'm not one of those posters that'll call Melo the 'best I've ever seen, etc' but he is the best Knicks we've had since Ewing. He's not in the class of Lebron or Durant, but I believe Melo is a top 10 player in this league.

To sum it up, the reason this team took a step backwards this year is because the supporting cast all took a step backwards this year, we aren't hitting 3's at the same extraordinary clip and I believe Woody leaves a lot to be desired.

with that said uptown. do you really think the supporting cast is the cause for a potential 20 game swing in the loss column? really?

Lets be realistic.. this team overachieved more than just a bit.. Kidd was HUGE at the beginning of the year and let me add in JR who played the best ball of his career.. I mean those two were responsible for 3 wins directly with game winning shots.. Kidd had that much of an impact...

what you are seeing this year with JR is pretty much the kind of player he has been for most of his career... Amare is just not someone you can count on with his health. Felton wasn't good in portland and hasn't been that good at all since he was traded from NY a few years ago...

chandler I think is getting older and worn down a bit.. this is signs of a team that needs a complete overhaul.. and carmelo is just not that good enough of a player or diverse enough to carry a team that has players who are not playing close to their best ball..

I'm not one of those posters that'll call Melo the 'best I've ever seen, etc' but he is the best Knicks we've had since Ewing. He's not in the class of Lebron or Durant, but I believe Melo is a top 10 player in this league.

thats fair and I know you didn't make that quote about the best youve ever seen, but I do dissagree with a couple of things.. I don't think he is the best knick since ewing... I personally think spree was, simply because his game was more diverse, more dynamic and we went to a finals with spree.. but that is just my opinion.. and yes I agree he is not in the class of lebron or durant, but i don't see him as a top 10 player as well.. ESPN had him ranked at 15 and i thought they were a bit generous...

but we will just agree to disagree here I guess..

mreinman wrote:TKF,

Take a look at how awfully inefficient Latrell Spreewell was. He certainly had heart and played hard but saying that he is a better player then Carmelo is just plain preposterous and irresponsible.

I am also sure that Bonn would not approve of his horrible .077 Win Shares for his career (.076 in the playoffs).

When you make these assertions, are you going with your heart? Memory? Eyes? Or are you actually doing some research?

When you take a look at his stats, please also take a quick look at his disastrous playoff stats.

If this is being "more dynamic" then I don't really know what "dynamic" is.

LOL you would have thought I opened a bag of anthrax in an elementary school..

please enough with the over the top comments...

first of all an inefficient player is inefficient.. pointing out that sprewell was ineficient when carmelo is inefficient does what? and for the record sprewell didn't shoot a great % at all, but he also didn't take 22 shots per game, he took around 15, he also dished out more assist, played with much more energy and was a hell of a defender...

Again I look at more than scoring... the knicks took on the personality and energy of guys like sprewell, camby and LJ..

When you make these assertions, are you going with your heart? Memory? Eyes? Or are you actually doing some research?

All of the above.. sprewell was a better defender.. do you not agree with that?

sprewell played with more energy? do you not agree with that?

Sprewell was a better intitiator of offense? do you not agree with that?

Sprewell was a key cog in getting the knicks to the finals even with an injured Ewing and LJ, is that not correct?

The only think carmelo did better than sprewell is shoot more... sprewell was a better two way player... and "dynamic" let me explain that for you.. or better yet let me get you a definition.

Dynamic: a force that stimulates change or progress within a system or process.

that is what sprewell did for the knicks.. he came here mid season in 1999 and guess what, he helped lead the knicks to a first round upset vs the heat, a series in which Ewing only played two games, and didn't play again in the playoffs.... and then helped lead the knicks to the finals vs the spurs...

No ewing, and injured LJ, no excuses, sprewell helped deliver... he stimulated change and progress within the NY knicks... he did so by playing with a high level of energy that became infectious , just ask marcus camby, Houston, LJ......

SO yes, I think he was a better knick than carmelo..

the fact that you think that is preposterous is mind boggling, at this point I don't even know if you are worth the keystrokes debating with you.. it is this type of posting that makes having a reasonable debate so hard....

I think you have a very hard time accurately assessing carmelo anthony, which is why I don't see any use debating this topic with you any more.... no offense...