ChuckBuck wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:Jesus Christ, are we still telling people who don't agree with the front office that they aren't fans? Yeah right, guys who have literally thousands of posts over years on a KNICKS message boards aren't fans. Give me a break

We've added Andrea Bargnani, Metta World Peace, Beno Udrih. Resigned Pablo Prigioni, JR Smith, and Kmart. Drafted/signed Tim Hardaway JR, CJ Leslie, Jeremy Tyler.

All added to the core of Raymond Felton, Iman Shumpert, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Tyson Chandler.

Are you saying we didn't even slightly improve over the roster last year on paper???

I actually liked our offseason for the most part. However i agree with azama. I mean we all love the knicks but certain fans seem to get on other fans who have any type of criticism of roster moves. I mean we love the knicks buts its more important to be objective and not too biased

Who did we lose of value besides Chris Copeland? Weren't we able to replace that and then some with the moves made?

I thought i was pretty clear in my first sentence. I think under the circumstances we had a good offseason. However lets be honets if we were perfect than we would be going to the finals every year lol. Look its ok to love the knicks and be critical of CERTAIN moves. Maybe Bargani turns out to be an all-star you never know. i hope he does

Never said all star. On paper did the Knicks improve or get worst? According to the Sabremetricians here, we got worse, mainly by adding Bargnani. We're not asking him to be 1st fiddle, maybe not even 2nd fiddle. Injuries aside, health permitting isn't it nice to have a 7 foot Novak that can actually dribble and post?

azamatbagatov wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:Jesus Christ, are we still telling people who don't agree with the front office that they aren't fans? Yeah right, guys who have literally thousands of posts over years on a KNICKS message boards aren't fans. Give me a break

We've added Andrea Bargnani, Metta World Peace, Beno Udrih. Resigned Pablo Prigioni, JR Smith, and Kmart. Drafted/signed Tim Hardaway JR, CJ Leslie, Jeremy Tyler.

All added to the core of Raymond Felton, Iman Shumpert, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Tyson Chandler.

Are you saying we didn't even slightly improve over the roster last year on paper???

I have no idea how you are deducing that from the words in my post.

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:Jesus Christ, are we still telling people who don't agree with the front office that they aren't fans? Yeah right, guys who have literally thousands of posts over years on a KNICKS message boards aren't fans. Give me a break

We've added Andrea Bargnani, Metta World Peace, Beno Udrih. Resigned Pablo Prigioni, JR Smith, and Kmart. Drafted/signed Tim Hardaway JR, CJ Leslie, Jeremy Tyler.

All added to the core of Raymond Felton, Iman Shumpert, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Tyson Chandler.

Are you saying we didn't even slightly improve over the roster last year on paper???

I actually liked our offseason for the most part. However i agree with azama. I mean we all love the knicks but certain fans seem to get on other fans who have any type of criticism of roster moves. I mean we love the knicks buts its more important to be objective and not too biased

Who did we lose of value besides Chris Copeland? Weren't we able to replace that and then some with the moves made?

I thought i was pretty clear in my first sentence. I think under the circumstances we had a good offseason. However lets be honets if we were perfect than we would be going to the finals every year lol. Look its ok to love the knicks and be critical of CERTAIN moves. Maybe Bargani turns out to be an all-star you never know. i hope he does

Never said all star. On paper did the Knicks improve or get worst? According to the Sabremetricians here, we got worse, mainly by adding Bargnani. We're not asking him to be 1st fiddle, maybe not even 2nd fiddle. Injuries aside, health permitting isn't it nice to have a 7 foot Novak that can actually dribble and post?

not really, because he isn't a 7 foot novak.. novak pretty much shoots 45% and higher from three. historically... bargs doesn't.. not the same weapon in that aspect.. and honestly, lets stop acting like this guy makes a living dribbling and posting... he has not displayed consistently that he can do these things, even to a point where he makes his team better.. had this been the case, I guarantee you he would still be a raptor and they would be a much better team... reality says otherwise..

He missed alot of games the last 2 years due to injury, it's well documented. Big reason we were able to land him.

If, no guarantees, but if he is completely healthy and playing the way he was in 09-11, then it could very well be a steal.

His 3 PT% those 3 seasons by the way he averaged 37.5% which is pretty good for someone that shoots quite a bit.

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

so what are you saying? Lets not use the he has this guy to help him excuse.. durant has been to an NBA final.. carmelo has the worst playoff record of any active player..

keep it real..

On a side note, how come CP3 never gets any criticism for his playoff record- it's pretty much the same as Melo's, yet he's considered the greatest PG in the league. But Melo gets blasted year in year out, and it's cited as proof that he sucks.

But CP3 is Cliff Paul! He will handle your insurance.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Ahh the whole chip or bust mentality!

What a way to live through life!

People rather be right through statistical analysis, True shooting percentages, and win shares.

Whatever happened to every season in a new beginning, a clean slate, not a foregone conclusion.

Just to jog the memories of all the cynics:

Fan is short for fanatic

Fanatic, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion

Then that's nothing to be proud of!

Nothing worst than a self hating fan. Unless you're a Mets or Jets fan, then you're excused!

huh?

Guessing you're not proud to be a Knicks fan.

You'd rather be right about TS% and WS than pledge allegiance to United State of Dolan!

No, you'd be better off not guessing other people's feelings.
I'm proud to root for the Knicks and to be a thinking person at the same time

You sure have a funny way of showing it sometimes!

No, you just don't understand the difference between "rooting for" and being an "unthinking fanatic." Rooting for, simply means when you watch the games you hope the Knicks win.

How about right now? There's no games to watch, it's the offseason, we've clearly upgraded the roster, yet in your esteemed opinion, the Knicks moves add up to a "C" grade.

Wow...

No, we haven't clearly upgraded the roster. You're ignoring that our veterans will be a 1 year older version of themselves, which will mean that nearly all of them will be downgraded a little from last year. None of the players we've added are anything special. They're just legit league min players. Are you just vaguely using the word upgrade or will you put your money where your mouth is a predict a better regular season win total and deeper playoff run?

LOL won't all of the other rosters in the NBA be 1 year older too?

How come other contending teams wanted the same players too? Guess they like doo doo minimum players also.

The team's clearly better than last year, roster and depth wise, as well as younger. Record wise, I'd say we're above 50 wins, but won't say we'll exceed 54 just due to the parity in the East now.

Yes, other teams are a year older but that doesn't matter for a player in the beginning or middle of their prime as much as for 10+ year veterans. Other teams wanted Udrih and Artest because they are legit min players like I said. Maybe you're just misunderstanding what a C means. Usually, A means excellent, B means good, C means average, D is poor, and F is failing.

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:No, we haven't clearly upgraded the roster. You're ignoring that our veterans will be a 1 year older version of themselves, which will mean that nearly all of them will be downgraded a little from last year. None of the players we've added are anything special. They're just legit league min players. Are you just vaguely using the word upgrade or will you put your money where your mouth is a predict a better regular season win total and deeper playoff run?

Artest and Beno signed for vet min but you really think those salary slots predicate talent and worth to team?

What does strict upgrade of roster have to do with regular season or playoff run?

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Ahh the whole chip or bust mentality!

What a way to live through life!

People rather be right through statistical analysis, True shooting percentages, and win shares.

Whatever happened to every season in a new beginning, a clean slate, not a foregone conclusion.

Just to jog the memories of all the cynics:

Fan is short for fanatic

Fanatic, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion

Then that's nothing to be proud of!

Nothing worst than a self hating fan. Unless you're a Mets or Jets fan, then you're excused!

huh?

Guessing you're not proud to be a Knicks fan.

You'd rather be right about TS% and WS than pledge allegiance to United State of Dolan!

No, you'd be better off not guessing other people's feelings.
I'm proud to root for the Knicks and to be a thinking person at the same time

You sure have a funny way of showing it sometimes!

No, you just don't understand the difference between "rooting for" and being an "unthinking fanatic." Rooting for, simply means when you watch the games you hope the Knicks win.

How about right now? There's no games to watch, it's the offseason, we've clearly upgraded the roster, yet in your esteemed opinion, the Knicks moves add up to a "C" grade.

Wow...

No, we haven't clearly upgraded the roster. You're ignoring that our veterans will be a 1 year older version of themselves, which will mean that nearly all of them will be downgraded a little from last year. None of the players we've added are anything special. They're just legit league min players. Are you just vaguely using the word upgrade or will you put your money where your mouth is a predict a better regular season win total and deeper playoff run?

LOL won't all of the other rosters in the NBA be 1 year older too?

How come other contending teams wanted the same players too? Guess they like doo doo minimum players also.

The team's clearly better than last year, roster and depth wise, as well as younger. Record wise, I'd say we're above 50 wins, but won't say we'll exceed 54 just due to the parity in the East now.

Yes, other teams are a year older but that doesn't matter for a player in the beginning or middle of their prime as much as for 10+ year veterans. Other teams wanted Udrih and Artest because they are legit min players like I said. Maybe you're just misunderstanding what a C means. Usually, A means excellent, B means good, C means average, D is poor, and F is failing.

So we didn't move the needle at all this offseason, we're just plain mediocre? We didn't improve depth and inject youth, we didn't add scoring, we didn't add toughness. All weaknesses last year.

So, our front office didn't address any of the weaknesses or needs this team had(even though it seems pretty clear they did), so it gets a "C". Is that what you're saying?

Maybe my subsequent reply clarified things but, by your own admission, we probably did not keep up with the rate of inflation in the east (to use a financial metaphor). If we were investors, that would be considered a bad performance.

Bonn1997 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:No, we haven't clearly upgraded the roster. You're ignoring that our veterans will be a 1 year older version of themselves, which will mean that nearly all of them will be downgraded a little from last year. None of the players we've added are anything special. They're just legit league min players. Are you just vaguely using the word upgrade or will you put your money where your mouth is a predict a better regular season win total and deeper playoff run?

Artest and Beno signed for vet min but you really think those salary slots predicate talent and worth to team?

What does strict upgrade of roster have to do with regular season or playoff run?

An upgraded roster will perform better or else you didn't really upgrade.
Or is this an upgrade that simply didn't keep up with the rate of "inflation" in the east? Kind of like earning 0.25% interest in the bank when inflation is 4%? I view that as a downgrade but you could call it a poor upgrade.

yes you can't simply assert we upgraded without comparing what our rivals did to upgrade. kind of goes back to the aldridge article that people were up in arms over. according to aldridge we were among the bottom ten teams in terms of improvement. meanwhile he puts the nets and pacers and hawks in the top ten.

knicks may well have lost ground so even giving them a C is a stretch.

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

toad wrote:

nixluva wrote:

toad wrote:I don't dislike Carmelo, but he's not a player to build around. And you certainly don't do it with guys who don't rebound or play very much defense. Everyone was saying we need that second guy because JR is not that guy. Bargnani is? More and more, I think we're really missing the #1 guy Melo can play off. 2015 can't come fast enough.

WHAT? Look Melo isn't perfect but you can certainly say he's a franchise player you can build around. I think it's insane to say otherwise. If the Knicks had gotten anything close to his regular season out of JR last year in the Pacer series they might've beaten them. If we look at the team now Melo has a MUCH improved supporting cast now. We can't all have Lebron James or Tim Duncan. However, Melo will have his best shot to win a title over the next 2 years. This is likely to be the best team he's played on in NY. The Beno signing helps to make the AB trade stand up even better. You have to have consistently good PG play to take advantage of AB on the floor. It's up to Woody and the Players now to put it all together.

The guy is an exceptional talent, but he's just not a player I trust to lead a team. When I say 'build around' I think there is a difference between finding players to complement and finding players to compensate. Melo is just not an exceptional 2-way player IMO, and there's a lot of 'filling in' that needs to happen so he can concentrate on what he excels at. Add to that his lack of leadership and I'm not sold. Sorry for this discussion being sidetracked.

More on topic, though I do like some of the offseason acquisitions, I think by the end of season, we'll be talking about how expecting Bargnani to be the #2 guy is expecting too much of him and how we still need a Robin to Melo's Batman. Essentially, where we were at the end of this past season. Bargnani was presumably our big acquisition this offseason and I can see him not even starting. Yeah, he didn't cost much, but there's a reason for that.

the core issue is we have a robin who steadfastly believes he is a batman and a franchise and fanbase that desperately wants that to be true.... knicks are not going to reach any significant goals such as an ECF appearance with this delusion.

There aren't many batman's in the NBA. Most teams that aren't rebuilding are having the same problem. Amare's franchise killing contract and limited production has been more of the cause for lack of ECF appearances. Replace that 20mil with at minimal 2 solid role players who contribute and we probably have an ECF appearance.

It's not only the Amare contract. It's using the amnesty clause on Billups too. The Knicks messed up signing Amare and then were given an unexpected gift that allowed them to get out of it (the amnesty clause) but they still couldn't get it right.

That's not realistic though. Can't expect Dolan to flat out give away 100mil. Also Amare was playing like an MVP candidate for the first half of the season. We messed up when we swapped Billups contract for Tyson Chandler. He has been a no show 2 yrs in a row in the playoffs. If that money went to a star player instead who knows.

We also messed up by thinking that Fields was a player to keep in the trade.

Many were calling Grunny "Exec of the year" for having Dolans money to amnesty Billups 14mm and pay Tyson 14mm!

Remember???

Many were calling Cube and idiot for letting tyson go.

He was DPOY.

Remember?

We won 54 games with his as our center!

Remember?

Again the comments are based off hindsight using only the end result. End result Chandler has been a no show in the playoffs 2 yrs in a row even though he was specifically signed to help us in the playoffs as a past NBA champ. Don't really have any comments about the things you posted. Seems like an I told you so type of post so I will say congratulations for being right I guess????

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

so what are you saying? Lets not use the he has this guy to help him excuse.. durant has been to an NBA final.. carmelo has the worst playoff record of any active player..

keep it real..

Keeping it real is what I do.

-My first reply was to Dk7th meaning exactly like I stated. There aren't many Batman type of players in the NBA. So without one either you rebuilding looking for one. Or you are trying to make the best team you can without one.

-The follow comment about Durant was showing that even a player that is better then Carmelo as well as having a better team around him got dominated in the 2nd rd of the playoffs and finished 3-6 once Westbrook went down.

-Yea Durant went to an NBA final he also had Westbrook and Harden on his team. Name me one time in Carmelo's career that he ever had the combination of talent like Ibaka, Westbrook & Harden to play along side of him to make that a relevant statement(Keep it real)? The next yr without them he finished 3-6.

-Yea Carmelo has the worst playoff record in the NBA. He also made the playoffs every yr of his career starting from his rookie yr. While Durant didn't make the playoffs his first 2 yrs in the league and lost in the first rd after going to the lottery 2 yrs in a row to land Westbrook and Harden. I'm sure Carmelo's playoff record would look a lot nicer if he wasn't making the playoffs and netting the team lottery picks like Igoudala '04 and Chris Paul'05 for the future. This is the definition of keeping it real. Not making statements bypassing the realness behind them.

-Knickscity then replied that his teammates didn't come thru for him. Which I explained to him that this reasoning (even though I agree with him actually) is only considered an excuse when it comes to Carmelo Anthony so it cannot be allowed when describing Durant's failure in the post season last yr. Which you then confirmed with this latest reply, "Lets not use the he has this guy to help him excuse ".

-Which leads me to my next question. Why did Batman/Mr Sabermetrics himself get dominated in the 2nd rd of the playoffs and go only 3-6 after Westbrook got injured? I would really like an explanation for this. And remember can't use "the he has or didn't have this guy to help him excuse". So if you can't blame his supporting cast, and he is a Superstar caliber player, Who excels in Saber metrics, how does he go from finals to getting dominated in the 2nd rd?

-Also I would like to know how the Denver Nuggets with the major cap space we gave them, multiple young veterans we gave them who excel in saber metrics, along with the draft picks we gave them. 3 yrs later still have not have gotten out of the first rd of the playoffs and don't look like they made any improvements to surpass that going into yr 4. I thought that was the blueprint to championships?

Worth framing and putting over the fireplace

Newyorknewyork quiets the crowd.