|
newyorknewyork
Posts: 30153
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
|
tkf wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:tkf wrote:Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:CrushAlot wrote:3G4G wrote:FoeDiddy wrote:3G4G wrote:FoeDiddy wrote:3G4G wrote:FoeDiddy wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:JamesLin wrote:This thread is just retarded. Not even a good question. Just a question trying to stir up the 'what if' situation. The writer is just too stupid to realize this thread is just a troll thread. The trade was made by Jim Dolan. Sacrificing too much? Hell yes. Just imagine if the trade didn't go through:1. We would have solid bench young players.
2. We would have enough cap space to get a legit starter/star like Howard.
3. Gallo is proven to be solid player
4. We would still be getting veteran players that will play here for minimum
5. Kidd would be training Lin instead of playing along side with Felton.
6. Amar'e would be awesome on being the main star
7. We would still be way under the cap to rebuild a dynasty
8. We might have been able to get Phil to coach. There's a lot of ifs. You're writing this thread to try to convince we're a championship team now? Stop sucking on your mama titties and grow up. This post is very incorrect. We would get a legit star other than Melo? Who? These guys aren't waiting until free agency anymore. Vets like Kidd may not have come here if they didn't feel this team had a legit chance to compete. And Lin would not be here because we would have Felton. We would also not be under the salary cap because players like Gallo and Chandler would have needed to be paid. Saying these things is like saying we would have won the lottery and drafted a instant star player. People here are living in the "best case scenario world" assuming these things would have happened if we never traded for Melo. Dolan has not been a good owner, but i won't hold this against him just because of a 5% chance of some of these things coming true if he didn't make the trade. Very high likelood we would be overpaying role players and being well over the cap if we never got Melo. We would not be 4-0 right now, we would just be a .500 ball club with a chance to get to the playoffs, but not do anything when we get there. But everyone would be happy because we have draft picks that can hopefully turn into decent players right? And cap space that can hopefully turn into another star player right? SMH.
Teams do trade for and sign superstars, you know? If we'd been building right from the start, there's no reason why we wouldn't have been able to pull off any trades or signings to get at least one of Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Howard, or Paul.
and to continue the list and/or
Deron/Harden/Bynum/Josh Smith/Iggy/K-Mart/Bogut/Mayo/Beasley/Lowry/Johnson/Pau/Jefferson/Milsap All of these guys were gettable or will be gettable in the very immediate future. I'm not saying all of these players would have been an attractive option but nevertheless look at all the potential combination of players. None of those players you just listed give us a better chance to win a championship over Melo. That's just ridiculous. Some of those names are even borderline insulting to say in the same breath as Melo. Beasley, K-Mart, Iggy??? wow. Pass what you smoking.
Via trade and/or cap space option it wouldn't be a 1 to 1 comparison. It would be a combination comparison to Melo such as....
Josh Smith and Mayo>>>>>>>>>Melo
Harden and Lowry>>>>>>>Melo Bynum and Beasley>>>>>>>Melo Iggy and Bogut>>>>>>>Melo
Not to mention whatever else is acquired or made available post transactions
If that's the case then you have to do that on Melo's end too. so isn't Melo & Chandler since the Melo trade included Billups which turned into chandler. Melo and Chandler >>>> Josh Smith/Mayo
Melo and Chandler >>> Harden/Lowry
Melo and Chandler >>Bynum/Beasley
Melo and Chandler >>> Iggy/Bogut Even if you argue that anyone of those combinations are better then Melo and Chandler it's not by enough to even warrant any backlash.
Only in one of your comparisons does it come close in a 2 for 2 comparison and even then there's financial flexibility left over in the very last
You don't want me to break down salary for the pairs I have listed. Really you don't. Either understand the full scope of basketball and structuring a team together or don't
LOL are you a undercover NBA GM or something. you a couch fan just like me. Don't insult my intelligence. At the end of the day it's all opinions. In my opinion I wouldn't be happy with any of those other combinations you listed. You started the comparisons not me. When I pointed out the flaw in your initial 2 to 1 comparison you want to break down salaries now. I'm a fan I don't care what they spend as long as the product is good on the floor. and right now it's a good product. Let the owners worry about salaries. You want to tell me after all the salary dumping and awful seasons we had to endure if we had a final product of Iggy & Bogut that would be a success?? Josh Smith & Mayo?? Bynum & BEASLEY?? BEASLEY??? come on man. don't preach to me about understanding the full scope of structuring a team when you actually would type out the name Beasley. My argument has been consistent centered around flexibility....financial flexibility is part of it. Sorry you can't grasp this. Its funny because you talk about fables and fairy tales and suggest that a gm shouldn't pursue a star because other stars might become available. The Melo trade turned into Melo and Tyson. Amare did break down and doctors have said 5 years for micro fracture surgery so maybe he doesn't injure his back while D'Ant is riding him like Secretariat but his knee had a time line and it did give out. Gallo is a china doll. He is prepetually injured. He also isn't as good as most of his young teammates. Gm's and coaches are supposed to win especially in a big market like NY. Passing up stars in hopes that an up and comer or under achiever will sign for less is fine for fans to speculate about but doesn't translate well if you are supposed to be doing a job. Jackie Paper stopped believing in Puff. Maybe, maybe there is more to this gm game then you are seeing. the point is who you pursue.. Knicks had no business going after carmelo.. not at that cost.. that is the problem.. You see him as a star, some of us don't, hence the reason for these types of arguments...no matter how much you try to down guys like gallo, it only weakens your argument.. It is a complete fail to try to justify a move by needlessly and unjustifiably trying to down another player... The Job of a GM in any market, large or small is to make the best move for his team, in every area, and that includes financial, and protecting the teams assets... here is the flaw in your argument.. He is prepetually injured. He also isn't as good as most of his young teammates. and carmelo isn't as good as most of the other max players in the league.... see how easy that is... the key is, it cost us nothing keeping gallo.. it cost us a lot acquiring carmelo.. This is where my whole issue has always been. At all costs. What does that mean? We didn't give away any future stars, no lottery picks, nothing outside of solid role players. This is just a classic case of people overrating that collection of assets because they were young players with reasonable upside. The league as a whole did not view that group of players as anything to write home about. Neither did Denver, thus the reason they kept working to complete a deal with the Nets prior to finally giving in, as well as anyone else who was willing to offer something without a promise from Anthony. There were teams out there putting out better packages than ours. Nets had better young players and lottery picks. We had neither. Anthony strong-armed his way here and that was the only reason we have him. I value Anthony the same way NBA teams do. The Knicks had one of the worst packages of players and assets to offer, and got it done because that's what Melo wanted.
first of all, I said at that cost.. not at all cost... but again, you felt we gave away solid role players.. well that is a broad label... is iggy a solid role player? is many? what is a solid role player? if you think we gave away a bunch of ronnie brewers and steve novaks, then I say you are wrong here....
I don't care what the nets had, and for the record how are the players the nets traded away doing? you see it is very evident you only intend to downplay what the knicks traded away.... favors is not starting for the jazz although he has upside, but so does gallo and chandler.... and devin harris is pretty much on his way to being a journeyman... The Knicks had one of the worst packages of players and assets to offer, and got it done because that's what Melo wanted.
keep telling yourself this.. you just might believe it one day.. Iggy is not a role player, he is an all-star. A role player is one who will start on some teams, come off the bench on others, have an impact on the game, but is not a game-changer. That is what Gallo and Chandler are. Utah views Favors as a huge piece to the point where Milsap and Jefferson probably won't be on this team after this season. Harris was a former all-star and impact player who declined dramatically. Plus there were a series of draft picks which trumps the Knicks package on its own. I liked the Knicks players very much at that point. I just believe we vastly overrated them, and it gets more evident by the day. you have to be kidding me with this.. first of all, there are few game changers, we call them superstars, guys like wade,lebron, durant, rose.... if you impact a game you are more than just a solid role player... so according to your definition, most players in the league are role players.. there are a lot of good players than can start for some teams, come off the bench on others... ginobili comes off the bench.. odom, crawford, even harden came off the bench... but that defines their role.. not their talent.. gallo was a starter for the knicks, and now he is s starter for the nuggets. .fact.. chandler as george karl put it, could start for most teams in the league.. But hey I see you made excuses for favors... and harris, played in one allstar game had a good season in 2009, but hardly do I use allstar games to define how good a player is, since most of those are popularity contest.... I just believe we vastly overrated them, and it gets more evident by the day. who overrated them? it is like anything else around here.. as soon as a player leaves, he all of a sudden is no longer good.. we didn't overrate the kids, what happened is carmelo was overrated, and it is evident from day one when he came here.. so the new excuse became.. We had to get him a better team.. rofl.. isn't that what we were saying about amare and the kids? to keep adding better pieces?
exactly. the level of hypocrisy here is stunning. and guess what the argument is that we needed a second star to pair with stoudemire, and apparently any second star will do even if it has proven six ways to sunday that they do not fit together at all! so you pair an overrated player with stoudemire and compound the problem because he doesn't fit in with what is going on here at all, displacing the gm, the coach, several rotation players, and the first big money free agent as it turns out as well.
What yr should we be expecting a championship in Denver? i don't know but they will be the equal of the knicks in their conference this season, 3-5 seed and their medium turn prospects for greater success exceeds ours. So like the Knicks they should be WCF or bust this season right? the average age of that team is probably 25 or so so their window is at least 4 or 5 years. why would they break up the team when they in fact have a clear plan in place, part of which acknowledges that other teams are going to be on downward cycle while they continue to grow together as a team? the knicks average age is closer to 33-34 i would guess and their plan is to win now, meaning if they don't make a strong-- and promising-- showing this season, ie a ECF appearance that pushes whomever to 7 games, they will have to consider moving some big contract and go shopping. there is no real plan in place other than pack the team with older players that can hopefully hold up and provide a steadying hand to a somewhat rudderless core. So when will they be held accountable to achieve some type of deep playoffs success after all the bragging about there team and the whining about ours. All that u stated sounds lovely, but yet I don't hear anything about expectations, deep playoff runs, and/or championships. Iggy is in his 9th season, Gallo & Randolph are in there 5th, Chandler and Brewer are in there 6th, Mcgee and Kosta are in there 5th, Ty Lawson is in his 4th and Andre Miller is in his 14th. They have a 68mil salary cap, this is before Lawson kicks in, they will also look to resign Iggy who will be 31-32 at this time and Faried. The flexibility that has been bragged about will be recycling 3rd option type of players. You also are discounting teams like Minny, Portland, Hornets who have a lot of young talent as well with higher ceilings. As well as Houston and GSW who can both can go either way in 2yrs. Anthony Davis, Eric Gordon, Aminu, Rivers, Vasquez, Lopez will be a problem in the west in 2 yrs. While Lakers, OKC, Clippers, Memphis, SAS, Dallas have at least 2yrs of being strong with all of them except Memphis actually having franchise talent. Howard allows Lakers to retool quickly even after Kobe and Nash reties. Dallas retooled there backcourt with Collison and Mayo and Mark Cuban will continue to reload that roster and land guys like he always does. Banking on Denver taking over when elite teams get old isn't a slam dunk. At the same time Grunwald has shown the ability to add quality pieces over the last 2 yrs with Chandler, Smith, Novak, Felton, Brewer, Kidd, Camby. In 2-3yrs we will have major cap flexibility with everyone comming off the books. Meaning Grunwald will be able to choose who to keep, who to trade, who to let walk, while also key in on quality free agents allowing us to maintain contention a good stretch of yrs. Banking on the Knicks failing and having to tear down and rebuild isn't a slam dunk either *as yrs past I should say*.
in order to retool, you also need picks.. Denver is young, they have moveable contracts and they also have picks... they have the right to swap with us in 2016, I think... if we are not a playoff team , denver walks away with a lottery pick.... Knicks are not adding young players now, nor do they have many means to do so in the near future, while other teams are stacking up..
You then go on to talk about minny, portlant, Hornets having a higher ceiling than denver? really? how is that? Eric gordon hasn't played in months and doesn't want to be in New orlenas, Austin rivers? are you kidding me? come on man.. now there are some young teams out there with potential as you mention, Houston being one of them, as well as GS, but that doesn't effect the Nuggets in the least... they are as young and they have the resources to keep adding to their young core.... It isn't a slam dunk for denver to take over as an elite team, but they are in pretty good shape and that is all you can ask for... nothing is promised, but you want to be in great position.. they are... Yet you shy away from holding them accountable to any type of playoff expectations even though most of there players have been in the league for 4-8yrs. Dwight Howard and Chris Paul both became available after Denver acquired all these assets and flexibility so why weren't they able to land either one of them or even be in the conversation? Who is trading anything of high quality for Gallo's 15pts 6rebs 10mil a yr? or Mcgee's 11pts 6rebs 2blks 10mil a yr? Like I stated there flexibility is recycled 3rd options as those rookie contracts and high potential days are over. Bang for buck Jr Smith and Brewer 5mil 28pts 10+rebs 4ast 3stls vs Gallo and Chandler's 15mil 21pts 12rebs 2.6ast, .5stls. Lets also see who gets more bang for there buck with Felton's 16mil vs Lawson's 50mil. No you don't need picks to retool though they help. We retooled our whole roster since the Melo trade and our only draft pick has been Shumpert. Knicks have there 2013 first rd pick, 2014 first rd pick, 2015 first rd pick, 2016 first rd pick(swap), 2017 first rd pick, etc etc so the talk about Knicks not having draft picks is false. Everyone on the Knicks is tradeable other then Amare, and besides Melo and Amare have some of the best value and friendly contracts in the NBA. 2013 draft a PF to groom for when Amare's contract is up
2014 draft a PG to groom for when Kidd's contract is up
2016 draft a C to groom for when Camby's contract is up
2016 major cap space! Ok now the thread can die. https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
|
