earthmansurfer wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

VCoug wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

VCoug wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Just as a side note about a point TKF made- the reason we gave 3 year deals to Camby and Felton is that that is the minimum length you can give a player acquired via a sign and trade. Why we gave 3 years to Kidd, I have absolutely no idea though- maybe he agreed to retire after 2 if he's ineffective.

Camby's deal is basically 2 years, with only a small amount guaranteed for the third- like I said it was just done that way because 3yrs is the least we could offer (plus it'll be a nice trade chip in the third year).

According to hoopshype Felton actually has a four year deal.

Yep, the 4th year is a player option, for his security in case he sucks. Basically if he plays as he has for most of his career he'll opt out after the 3rd year, because he'll have been way underpaid for 3 years.

His career averages are 13.4ppg, 6.7apg, 1.3spg, 41% fg, and 33% 3fg. I wouldn't call $4M+/year underpaid.

Your confusing what players are actually worth, with what players actually seem to get- in a world where Jameer Nelson can stink it up and still sign a 3 year deal paying $8mil per year, trust me $4mil for Felton is a bargain! You won't get a cheaper starting caliber point guard for that amount. Pretty much the same as our old favourite Chris Duhon!

I am not a bit Felton fan but that contract was far from over paying.

Overpaying per year? Maybe slightly - I think there are guys on the league min who can give close to what he does. But it's definitely overpaying in total pay - $18 mil is a ton of money to throw at a guy who is average to below average in all phases of the game.

That is arguable (below average). People were crying when he left and stating how great he was - did he get this bad in one year?

Who in the league is at his level making less? Is Jameer Nelson that good?

Was Lin worth 25 million + tax for a guy who played 25 games last year and had a miserable shooting pct when it counted? Who Miami exposed as a ...

I would have paid for Lin and wanted him back but it aint my money.

Felton at 4 per is a good deal. I think he will be good for team chemistry, plays defense and can pass the ball. He just needs to not shoot.

I think the point regarding letting Lin walk is the timing being incredibly bad. I mean we are pretty close to contending for a championship. To get past Miami and then OKC/LA, you are going to need all you can to have a chance. Letting Lin walk in this context makes no sense, especially since it is next to impossible to add talent with the new CBA when you are over the salary cap. Keeping Lin could have been the difference. You pay that tax and go all out. 90% probably won't cut it.

I think and up and coming player like Lin can make the difference and it is worth the risk. Getting a bunch of guys, albeit very good players still, who are near retirement, is probably not in itself, going to put us over the hump, not now anyways. We are one injury away from a nightmare of a season. Consider that and consider Stats health the last two years, not to mention Melo's last year.

While I wanted Lin back badly, he has not proven by any means that he is the difference maker that could have put us over the hump. He had a great stretch against horrible competition and played poorly against winning teams. Could he have gotten better and overcame this? Maybe. But what if he did not pan out? Got injured? What then?

It was a risk and they chose not to risk it. I wish they did risk it.

Reading the articles and financial blogs back then, most of them thought it was a bad idea to bring him back and none of them thought that Dolan had the discipline to refrain. His discipline in the Melo trade was awful.

Not proven? He did more than I have seen any pg in a Knicks uniform do, since I really can't remember (at least not a young cat - maybe as far back as Jackson or Strickland - and I take Lin now over what they showed then - that is saying a lot). You don't let young guys with his speed, skill and IQ walk. You don't. As TKF sad "I thought we were going all in?".

To appreciate Lin you don't look at his stats, though they were very good - you watch him play. It was a thing of beauty to see such a young guy play the most difficult position so well. My eyes, our eyes, didn't lie. With all due respect, if you saw him play and you said you wanted him back so badly - I don't get your post.

Forget about the articles, analysts, etc. Don't try to rationalize stupidity by the owner, analysts, etc. What does your heart say? I'm not going to break Lin down with my mind. He was the best thing to happen to this franchise and we let him walk. I saw it. I witnessed something for 7 games that I thought was impossible. Every game I said "This can't continue". It did. It even went on till the Dallas game when he got hurt, obviously. His play fell off after that and people didn't put 2 and 2 together regarding the slip and the injury, not to mention burn out from playing so many minutes after doing nothing.

Lin was and is special, has the it factor and he is more than likely going to make Dolan feel like a fool.

There is no point in speculating what kind of player he will be. We shall see very soon.

I have a big problem judging him with absolutes as you have since he shot < 35 pct from the field against > .500 competition (factoring in home vs away). That scares me a bit. Has he ever proven that he can break traps against good teams? How about playing good teams on the road?

Playing in the playoffs against Miami would have told us a lot. However, it could have cut his value by 30-60 pct had he failed so if it was his decision, it was a smart one. He was only in a position to lose by playing. I am sure that his people knew this, and if one ignores this glaring fact then they are not being honest with themselves.

As I said, if he does turn out to be a very good PG, I will be very sad that he is not in NY.

I would have been extremely nervous going into the season with him as our only starting caliber PG.

Defense was a big problem too but thats another story.

muhaha wrote:Let's look at it from finacial perspective last year:

- Lin helped Knicks making playoff, 179K (edit: NBA playoff pool for Knicks)
- Two playoff games, attendance: 19,763 x 2 = 39,526 @ $250 (conservative estimation of average price)
MSG raked in 9.8 million for Game 3+4
- MSG shops Linsanity jersey sales ??k
- MSG stocks up 12% during Linsanity, Feb 4-Feb 17, 100 mils for Dolan as majority share (conservative estimation).

Here is something else to consider:
- Knicks FO knew the extent of Lin's injury but didnt reveal until AFTER playoff ticket were mostly sold. With advance of medical technology, any decent hospital could easily diagosed a meniscus tear.
- They annouced, 'Knicks will match any offer up to a billion dollar when sales of 2012-2013 season tickets were in full swing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For all the money he made from above, Dolan only dished out $762,000.

Was Lin worth 25 million + tax for a guy who played 25 games last year and had a miserable shooting pct when it counted? Who Miami exposed as a ...

a
By saying 25 games is not enough of a sample size...but that one game in Miami....you really made yourself look like an a**!

gunsnewing wrote:So Lin went 1-11 against miami. How many times did melo do that last year. He was 0-11 one game prob against the Bobcats

I will say this one last time - Lin shot very poorly against > .500 competition. You can harp on Miami if you choose to.

Melo shot 46 pct against > .500 competition while Lin shot 34 pct.

That does not mean that Lin can't learn to play better against these teams, he just has not done it yet.

mrKnickShot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:So Lin went 1-11 against miami. How many times did melo do that last year. He was 0-11 one game prob against the Bobcats

I will say this one last time - Lin shot very poorly against > .500 competition. You can harp on Miami if you choose to.

Melo shot 46 pct against > .500 competition while Lin shot 34 pct.

That does not mean that Lin can't learn to play better against these teams, he just has not done it yet.

Jeremy Lin: 2nd year player, possibly league average starting PG, possibly very good backup, $8.33M average salary. Role: POINT GUARD

Carmelo Anthony: One of the best scorers in the league, possibly one of the best of this era of the NBA, 7th highest paid player in the entire league at an average of 21.49M. ROLE: BUCKET GETTER/FRANCHISE PLAYER/SUPERSTAR

Why are we comparing these two players again?

This doesn't apply to you specifically mrKS and it's already been said in this thread but you can NOT use the small sample size argument to diminish the numbers Lin was putting up and then use 1 game in Miami to make any kind of point about his game.

One could then turn right around and use only his games against Dallas and the Lakers to project him as the best thing since sliced bread.

earthmansurfer wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

VCoug wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

VCoug wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Just as a side note about a point TKF made- the reason we gave 3 year deals to Camby and Felton is that that is the minimum length you can give a player acquired via a sign and trade. Why we gave 3 years to Kidd, I have absolutely no idea though- maybe he agreed to retire after 2 if he's ineffective.

Camby's deal is basically 2 years, with only a small amount guaranteed for the third- like I said it was just done that way because 3yrs is the least we could offer (plus it'll be a nice trade chip in the third year).

According to hoopshype Felton actually has a four year deal.

Yep, the 4th year is a player option, for his security in case he sucks. Basically if he plays as he has for most of his career he'll opt out after the 3rd year, because he'll have been way underpaid for 3 years.

His career averages are 13.4ppg, 6.7apg, 1.3spg, 41% fg, and 33% 3fg. I wouldn't call $4M+/year underpaid.

Your confusing what players are actually worth, with what players actually seem to get- in a world where Jameer Nelson can stink it up and still sign a 3 year deal paying $8mil per year, trust me $4mil for Felton is a bargain! You won't get a cheaper starting caliber point guard for that amount. Pretty much the same as our old favourite Chris Duhon!

I am not a bit Felton fan but that contract was far from over paying.

Overpaying per year? Maybe slightly - I think there are guys on the league min who can give close to what he does. But it's definitely overpaying in total pay - $18 mil is a ton of money to throw at a guy who is average to below average in all phases of the game.

That is arguable (below average). People were crying when he left and stating how great he was - did he get this bad in one year?

Who in the league is at his level making less? Is Jameer Nelson that good?

Was Lin worth 25 million + tax for a guy who played 25 games last year and had a miserable shooting pct when it counted? Who Miami exposed as a ...

I would have paid for Lin and wanted him back but it aint my money.

Felton at 4 per is a good deal. I think he will be good for team chemistry, plays defense and can pass the ball. He just needs to not shoot.

I think the point regarding letting Lin walk is the timing being incredibly bad. I mean we are pretty close to contending for a championship. To get past Miami and then OKC/LA, you are going to need all you can to have a chance. Letting Lin walk in this context makes no sense, especially since it is next to impossible to add talent with the new CBA when you are over the salary cap. Keeping Lin could have been the difference. You pay that tax and go all out. 90% probably won't cut it.

I think and up and coming player like Lin can make the difference and it is worth the risk. Getting a bunch of guys, albeit very good players still, who are near retirement, is probably not in itself, going to put us over the hump, not now anyways. We are one injury away from a nightmare of a season. Consider that and consider Stats health the last two years, not to mention Melo's last year.

While I wanted Lin back badly, he has not proven by any means that he is the difference maker that could have put us over the hump. He had a great stretch against horrible competition and played poorly against winning teams. Could he have gotten better and overcame this? Maybe. But what if he did not pan out? Got injured? What then?

It was a risk and they chose not to risk it. I wish they did risk it.

Reading the articles and financial blogs back then, most of them thought it was a bad idea to bring him back and none of them thought that Dolan had the discipline to refrain. His discipline in the Melo trade was awful.

Not proven? He did more than I have seen any pg in a Knicks uniform do, since I really can't remember (at least not a young cat - maybe as far back as Jackson or Strickland - and I take Lin now over what they showed then - that is saying a lot). You don't let young guys with his speed, skill and IQ walk. You don't. As TKF sad "I thought we were going all in?".

To appreciate Lin you don't look at his stats, though they were very good - you watch him play. It was a thing of beauty to see such a young guy play the most difficult position so well. My eyes, our eyes, didn't lie. With all due respect, if you saw him play and you said you wanted him back so badly - I don't get your post.

Forget about the articles, analysts, etc. Don't try to rationalize stupidity by the owner, analysts, etc. What does your heart say? I'm not going to break Lin down with my mind. He was the best thing to happen to this franchise and we let him walk. I saw it. I witnessed something for 7 games that I thought was impossible. Every game I said "This can't continue". It did. It even went on till the Dallas game when he got hurt, obviously. His play fell off after that and people didn't put 2 and 2 together regarding the slip and the injury, not to mention burn out from playing so many minutes after doing nothing.

Lin was and is special, has the it factor and he is more than likely going to make Dolan feel like a fool.

/quote]

Why is it that when cry babies don't get their way they wish the worst for the Knicks?

Caseloads wrote:houston didn't want him that badly and will likely trade him for something.

don't know why we didn't match him and trade him to a team under the cap other than knicks called around and no one wanted him.

Houston thought the Knicks was going to match. They know that he's not worth that type of money.

Nalod wrote:No, the Little man is growing up!

Nalod did you just gave Dolan credit? Someone's using Nalod's account. This is an imposter!

Mray20 wrote:A large expiring contract to trade for what? A player who's making 14 mil plus who probably has a bad contract a team is willing to dump on the Knicks, the Isiah era is over that day is dead.

MS wrote:Should also be taken into account, that the Knicks sucked last season and were on the verge of imploding until Lin infused life back into a fan base that was about to explode, ended the cable dispute and got the team back on track. Melo may have carried the team for the final month, but Lin brought them back fromn the dead. With that came leverage from the biggest joke franchise out there to justify a second straight raise of season tickets for 1 playoff win. Business decision or not. You just spent 10 years winning less games then the New Jersey Nets, put your fan base through, Scott Layden, Isiah Thomas, Stephon Marbury and Eddy Curry. Pay the tax. The organization was quoted saying they would match anything up to a billion was an extra 15MM.

Again Lin's fluke-like 20 plus games were played against some way below .500 teams...