blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:tristan thompson is a max money player and he has zero offensive game.

stein is all world offense compared to tristan

TT has less than zero game....it's terrible to watch him air ball a 2 foot hook shot. But thats another case where stats may not always show his value. And he's terrible guarding PnR.....His only true skill is offensive rebounds. I wouldn't say he's a max guy, but more power to him! I hope he gets his money, just not from us.

tristan brings so much to the game and he is gonna get paid

the point is, Stein can be miles better than tristan thompson

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:tristan thompson is a max money player and he has zero offensive game.

stein is all world offense compared to tristan

TT has less than zero game....it's terrible to watch him air ball a 2 foot hook shot. But thats another case where stats may not always show his value. And he's terrible guarding PnR.....His only true skill is offensive rebounds. I wouldn't say he's a max guy, but more power to him! I hope he gets his money, just not from us.

tristan brings so much to the game and he is gonna get paid

the point is, Stein can be miles better than tristan thompson

agree....WCS can be and should be better than TT.

I disagree that TT is a max player. But thats my own issue with maxing out guys. I don't think Melo should be maxed out....Same with Bosh. But thats not the point.

I agree with you on WCS....and if TT is a high value player, then WCS should have the same high value.

Will WCS rebound like Tristan Thompson? TT is very strong on the block, and knows how to use his strength to create space. I'm not sure if WCS will do that kind of rebounding, but he does so much more than TT (or thats my predictions when he enters the NBA).

So if anybody likes TT's game....they should also respect WCS game......Both add value without adding much to the offensive end, as far as scoring buckets. Both are offensive rebounders. WCS is younger and already ahead of TT with his guard like defense. But we will see. The NBA is different from college.

BRIGGS wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Given Stein's age compared to the younger prospects, and his lack of significant improvement over 3 years at the most consistently successful team in college, you have to be careful when talking about "potential."

Bonn1997 is right about Towns- if he had stayed in college for 3 years, his stat line showed no improvement, and his coach did not expand his role on the team, he would not be the probable #1 pick in this draft.

You can hide behind the "potential" curtain if you are a one and done player, but how do you do that with someone in Stein's situation.

Kaminsky wouldn't be a late 2nd, or undrafted FA, if he had come out after his first season.

Nobody finds little known prospects like Briggs, and Kaminsky was at a major school. Anyone remember Briggs threads touting Kaminsky when he was a freshman? A sophomore? Probably not...because he only played 8MPG as a freshman, and about 10MPG as a sophomore. He improved his game each year, though, and his college success needs no description here.

If Stein had showed the same kind of improvement as Kaminsky, he would be an easy pick at 4, and maybe a top 1-3 pick, but he did not, so all you have to do is go by that old stand-by, "potential."

There are seniors I never hear of until the end of their careers. There is 375 teams in div 1 and 4000+ players. I didnt know who Kaminsky was until the 4th game of his junior year. I imagine when he is lost in the NBA by defenders he will have a few games like that--but will add the rebounds and assist.

I know its hard- hell, I depend on guys like you to give me people to look at.

No criticism...just trying to make a point that Kaminsky did nothing special that would cause a guy searching for talent like you are to notice him, yet he continued to improve his body and game to the point where you could not help but notice him.

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:tristan thompson is a max money player and he has zero offensive game.

stein is all world offense compared to tristan

TT has less than zero game....it's terrible to watch him air ball a 2 foot hook shot. But thats another case where stats may not always show his value. And he's terrible guarding PnR.....His only true skill is offensive rebounds. I wouldn't say he's a max guy, but more power to him! I hope he gets his money, just not from us.

Small for a PF, not a great shot blocker, no game in the post, no jump shot, worthy of a hack a TT foul, and a poor passer.

His contract negotiations should be interesting- It will be fascinating to see if anyone offers him a max contract.

crzymdups wrote:Someone in another thread just mentioned that Stein is repped by CAA. We know Melo and NYK love their CAA.

WCS agent is Rich Kleiman of RocNation. I don't know if they're connected to CAA.

http://rocnation.com/sports/willie-cauley-stein/

Ilovestarks wrote:Have you noticrd that all our potential #4s have a shooting issue?

Of course, thats what happens when you fall out of the top 3. You have to pick the best of the rest...

earthmansurfer wrote:If he can shoot like in the video (and we all know he is a world class defender), then you have to look at him. Other teams in workouts are going to see the same thing so he will move up.
My question though, is can he score around the basket without dunking it. Can he shoot in that short zone, cause he will be there a lot and not be able to dunk.

He showed a decent hook shot in some post ups in game action for Kentucky this season - at least until Towns overtook him as KU's number one post option.

I think WCS was probably held back or held into a smaller role at KU because Cal was sort of beholden to feature Noel, Randle and Towns. He gets those top top top recruits because he promises to develop and showcase them. So a guy like Stein, who wasn't the biggest blue chip prospect gets put into a role. Like Lyles did, like the Harrison boys, etc. All those guys scored about 10ppg at Kentucky - if they went to smaller programs they maybe could've put up 20ppg with more touches

crzymdups wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:If he can shoot like in the video (and we all know he is a world class defender), then you have to look at him. Other teams in workouts are going to see the same thing so he will move up.
My question though, is can he score around the basket without dunking it. Can he shoot in that short zone, cause he will be there a lot and not be able to dunk.

He showed a decent hook shot in some post ups in game action for Kentucky this season - at least until Towns overtook him as KU's number one post option.

I think WCS was probably held back or held into a smaller role at KU because Cal was sort of beholden to feature Noel, Randle and Towns. He gets those top top top recruits because he promises to develop and showcase them. So a guy like Stein, who wasn't the biggest blue chip prospect gets put into a role. Like Lyles did, like the Harrison boys, etc. All those guys scored about 10ppg at Kentucky - if they went to smaller programs they maybe could've put up 20ppg with more touches

Why has his name never come up as being a potential top 3 pick over the last months? With the way he is being described by people here, he should be a top 2 pick, for goodness sake.

Towns, OK4, Russell, Mudiay, Winslow, and Porzingis have all been thrown out as potential top 3 picks, but WCS is never mentioned. Hey, he's an elite defender who some of you are now saying will make 3s and other shots in the NBA...even though he never made a 3 in his entire college career.

This is the most frustrating thread to write on, because it is hard to argue against taking a player who is being guaranteed by some to be able to do things he never did in games over a 3 year college career.

Still amazed that Wisconsin had the guts to even show up vs KU. Might have been the reason Stein was so underwhelming that game- perhaps he was expecting Wisconsin to forfeit and wasn't ready for actual competition.

Once again- show me the bigs drafted 1-10 with his kind of limited offense who have morphed into solid and dependable players on offense...please.

Can Stein be the exception? Maybe...but that is not what history tells us, and unlike many of the kids being drafted, Stein is a physically mature 3 year college player who has played with, and against, the best competition college has to offer, without his game showing any appreciable alteration from his freshman year.

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:The isolated plus/minus stats that were displayed earlier in the thread depend heavily on the methodology. For example, a 4-man constant lineup normalization followed by a weighted utility (by minutes or position or otherwise) can actually skew the data further, accentuating style, coaching, sample size (as mentioned before) and mathematic modeling artifacts. Acquiring the above data for all team players in tandem to create "a plus-minus space" with iterative player assessment modulation is another way to do it. The lineups used are usually starter/bench stratified though and the value of going to these lengths is tough to say; it may not add too much. Regardless, its pretty dumb to get overly excited about these things without knowing the degree of uncertainty in the measurement, far be it the predictive value.

The "eye" test plus the stats on Stein leave me not very impressed at all as a #4 pick. Lower down 9-14ish, he would a decent pick-up from a probability standpoint, whether bust or stud.

Dude you can come up with all the counter arguments you like but in the end WCS comes up as a big time Prospect. A legit 7'er with ELITE length, quickness and athletic ability is no small thing. What he does for your defense is exactly what teams need now. He's a big who can defend PnR and still get back to the rim. He's so quick and big that he's never really too far from the basket and he's a willing help defender. The man just understands how to play TEAM DEFENSE at a high level.

You can't underestimate the impact that has on a team. We need to be looking to build a championship level defense. The best way to do that is to bring in a defensive anchor and build out from there. Let's remember that we still have a team to build and if you draft WCS then all your other decisions are easier to make. He's like bringing in Joakim Noah. You know you'll have a solid D and every additional quality defender you add will only make your defense stronger from there.

I'm talking about how you build a title contender. You do that with a core of great defense. You can always add scorers. Finding elite defenders who can lead to a championship level defense is much more difficult. I find it sad that I have to be the one trying to make the case for that on a Knicks forum of all places. Knicks fans that understand the importance of defense. Draft WCS and the search is over. you can add a few quality free agents to provide scoring and defense on the perimeter. Another big to rebound and score inside. It's a much simpler process if you draft WCS.

nixluva you keep saying hes an elite level player

Can you tell me about his passing ability? His ballhandling ability? Why he seems to be very indecisive with the ball in his hands? Why his in game jumpshot form changes on nearly every attempt? In his 3 year career he has 127 turnovers and 90 assists--for a negative ratio--for a guy who does not score or even touch the ball that much.

Lets get one thing straight, the reason you draft WCS is to build your team based on defense. If you want a great offensive player then you aren't going to be looking at WCS. I don't think the Knicks biggest need is another offensive weapon. Phil should build this team with a great defensive player at the core. Offense will come, but you must build a team based on defense.

Very few players if any would come to the Knicks knowing all the fundamentals needed to execute in the Triangle. Teams at the lower levels don't teach these things anymore. This is understood going into the draft. You seem to have a problem realizing that all of these flaws are things you can fix with coaching and a system where his role is more clearly defined. We won't be in any rush and WCS will be allowed time to master the fundamentals.

The Triangle is all about teaching your players the fundamentals of spacing, footwork and passing. WCS would learn how to make the proper pass and where to look for his teammates who are cutting and moving into his sight lines. It's the very core of the offense. WCS has never been that involved in an offensive game plan. It may take time for him to master these things but he will learn and grow as a player. They didn't run an offense like the Triangle at UK.

Ilovestarks wrote:Have you noticrd that all our potential #4s have a shooting issue?

Yes, depressingly we have the 4th pick in a 3 man draft