holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:felton for his career:

FG% 41.2
3PT% 33.0
eFG% 45.5
TS% 49.8
FT% 78.6
AST/TO ratio 2.57

he lacks court vision
he runs a sub-par pick and roll
he can't maintain his dribble
his off hand is very weak, if not non-existent
he lacks craft and savvy
the game has not slowed down for him
he is a below average defender
he stunk in denver
he stunk in portland
he is incapable of orchestrating
he is okay in the alley-oop... so what

he was given a two-year contract by walsh with good reason

And he is better than Lin at this very moment..What does that say about Lin...

bottom line we are not going to beat the heat with this guy at the point guard position and we may not make it out of the second round.

again: he has no court vision, can't maintain his dribble, and is a terrible shooter. you need to have at least one if these skills if you are going to start in the backcourt on a genuine contender.

felton is yet another zero-sum player.

look it's bad enough that you have two sub-par decision makers in melo and smith, and lets add stoudemire. but a point guard as a bad decision-maker spells doom for a team. and i don't see that changing, so if you can see what i am talking about i must ask you: how will the knicks compensate?

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:felton for his career:

FG% 41.2
3PT% 33.0
eFG% 45.5
TS% 49.8
FT% 78.6
AST/TO ratio 2.57

he lacks court vision
he runs a sub-par pick and roll
he can't maintain his dribble
his off hand is very weak, if not non-existent
he lacks craft and savvy
the game has not slowed down for him
he is a below average defender
he stunk in denver
he stunk in portland
he is incapable of orchestrating
he is okay in the alley-oop... so what

he was given a two-year contract by walsh with good reason

And he is better than Lin at this very moment..What does that say about Lin...

bottom line we are not going to beat the heat with this guy at the point guard position and we may not make it out of the second round.

again: he has no court vision, can't maintain his dribble, and is a terrible shooter. you need to have at least one if these skills if you are going to start in the backcourt on a genuine contender.

felton is yet another zero-sum player.

look it's bad enough that you have two sub-par decision makers in melo and smith, and lets add stoudemire. but a point guard as a bad decision-maker spells doom for a team. and i don't see that changing, so if you can see what i am talking about i must ask you: how will the knicks compensate?

I don't even want to comment on the court vision, can't maintain dribble thing because it's silly...We are 5-0 and beat the Heat already with Felton...Felton is better than Charlmers and he has a ring...How does Charlmers work as a PG ingredient to a ring recipe...This team still needs lots of work and time together on the court...We need Amare to be a beast again to contend...But these players can grow to compete...But they all still need to improve, no doubt...

In case you need a reminder about Lin being better than Felton....Below is a quote I copied from the Houston Rockers forum, about the Great Linsanity.

"I haven't seen Lin run the pick and roll effectively since he put on a rockets uniform. Which is weird too because thats supposed to be his big strength.

Not in preseason. Not in the regular season.

He's not even putting the ball on the floor anymore. He's playing like Chris Duhon."

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:felton for his career:

FG% 41.2
3PT% 33.0
eFG% 45.5
TS% 49.8
FT% 78.6
AST/TO ratio 2.57

he lacks court vision
he runs a sub-par pick and roll
he can't maintain his dribble
his off hand is very weak, if not non-existent
he lacks craft and savvy
the game has not slowed down for him
he is a below average defender
he stunk in denver
he stunk in portland
he is incapable of orchestrating
he is okay in the alley-oop... so what

he was given a two-year contract by walsh with good reason

And he is better than Lin at this very moment..What does that say about Lin...

bottom line we are not going to beat the heat with this guy at the point guard position and we may not make it out of the second round.

again: he has no court vision, can't maintain his dribble, and is a terrible shooter. you need to have at least one if these skills if you are going to start in the backcourt on a genuine contender.

felton is yet another zero-sum player.

look it's bad enough that you have two sub-par decision makers in melo and smith, and lets add stoudemire. but a point guard as a bad decision-maker spells doom for a team. and i don't see that changing, so if you can see what i am talking about i must ask you: how will the knicks compensate?

I don't even want to comment on the court vision, can't maintain dribble thing because it's silly...We are 5-0 and beat the Heat already with Felton...Felton is better than Charlmers and he has a ring...How does Charlmers work as a PG ingredient to a ring recipe...This team still needs lots of work and time together on the court...We need Amare to be a beast again to contend...But these players can grow to compete...But they all still need to improve, no doubt...

are you saying it's silly because you see it differently or because it's true but just not that important? he does not see the floor. does he?he picks up his dribble and commits to passing from the air or shooting crappy teardrops. yes or no? i do not see him getting better in these aspects of the game and we don't have a lebron to take up the slack. we have kidd which ain't bad but it ain't enough.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:felton for his career:

FG% 41.2
3PT% 33.0
eFG% 45.5
TS% 49.8
FT% 78.6
AST/TO ratio 2.57

he lacks court vision
he runs a sub-par pick and roll
he can't maintain his dribble
his off hand is very weak, if not non-existent
he lacks craft and savvy
the game has not slowed down for him
he is a below average defender
he stunk in denver
he stunk in portland
he is incapable of orchestrating
he is okay in the alley-oop... so what

he was given a two-year contract by walsh with good reason

And he is better than Lin at this very moment..What does that say about Lin...

bottom line we are not going to beat the heat with this guy at the point guard position and we may not make it out of the second round.

again: he has no court vision, can't maintain his dribble, and is a terrible shooter. you need to have at least one if these skills if you are going to start in the backcourt on a genuine contender.

felton is yet another zero-sum player.

look it's bad enough that you have two sub-par decision makers in melo and smith, and lets add stoudemire. but a point guard as a bad decision-maker spells doom for a team. and i don't see that changing, so if you can see what i am talking about i must ask you: how will the knicks compensate?

I don't even want to comment on the court vision, can't maintain dribble thing because it's silly...We are 5-0 and beat the Heat already with Felton...Felton is better than Charlmers and he has a ring...How does Charlmers work as a PG ingredient to a ring recipe...This team still needs lots of work and time together on the court...We need Amare to be a beast again to contend...But these players can grow to compete...But they all still need to improve, no doubt...

The difference between Felton and Chalmers is that Chalmers understands that he's not one of the main guys on the team. Last year he was fourth on the team taking only 7.8 shots/game and hitting 44% of them. This year Felton is taking 14 attempts/game and hitting only 40%. And he's not going to suddenly reinvent himself at 28 and his 8th in the league as a good shooter, he just needs to stop shooting. If Woodson can get him to shoot around 10 shots/game we'll be much better off.

holfresh wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

holfresh wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:maybe 1 or 2 layups which is not a big deal. He also made 2 layups i remember on drives. He went 3-7 from 3. Thats about 11 shots right thereso the other 12 misses came in that midrange 10-20ft area he has been historically inefficient at. Why I see this and nor he or his coaches see this in trying to make him a more complete PG is beyond me

20 feet isn't midrange..10-15 is midrange...

However you wanna define it
10-15ft
10-18ft

I rarely see Felton hit those shots stockton, nash, kevin johnson, made a living off of. Even Iverson and Marbury hit those midrange shots at a better rate than Felton

No one is arguing that Felton is a superstar...You are comparing him to HOF players...If Felton could hit those shots consistently he wouldn't be a Knick right now...Felton is a very capable PG for what we need..We don't need him to score...We need him to run the offense and maintain a certain pace and flow...He is doing a great job of that..I can't wait until Amare gets back so he can further expand this offense...No one here thought Felton would be this good this early...U are the only Lin supporter who has anything positive to say of Felton...And we are 5-0...

Felton is apart of a team that is playing a high level of basketball AGAIN dude is doing something right.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

3G4G wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

3G4G wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

JamesLin wrote:This thread is just retarded. Not even a good question. Just a question trying to stir up the 'what if' situation. The writer is just too stupid to realize this thread is just a troll thread. The trade was made by Jim Dolan. Sacrificing too much? Hell yes. Just imagine if the trade didn't go through:

1. We would have solid bench young players.
2. We would have enough cap space to get a legit starter/star like Howard.
3. Gallo is proven to be solid player
4. We would still be getting veteran players that will play here for minimum
5. Kidd would be training Lin instead of playing along side with Felton.
6. Amar'e would be awesome on being the main star
7. We would still be way under the cap to rebuild a dynasty
8. We might have been able to get Phil to coach.

There's a lot of ifs. You're writing this thread to try to convince we're a championship team now? Stop sucking on your mama titties and grow up.

This post is very incorrect. We would get a legit star other than Melo? Who? These guys aren't waiting until free agency anymore. Vets like Kidd may not have come here if they didn't feel this team had a legit chance to compete. And Lin would not be here because we would have Felton. We would also not be under the salary cap because players like Gallo and Chandler would have needed to be paid. Saying these things is like saying we would have won the lottery and drafted a instant star player. People here are living in the "best case scenario world" assuming these things would have happened if we never traded for Melo. Dolan has not been a good owner, but i won't hold this against him just because of a 5% chance of some of these things coming true if he didn't make the trade. Very high likelood we would be overpaying role players and being well over the cap if we never got Melo. We would not be 4-0 right now, we would just be a .500 ball club with a chance to get to the playoffs, but not do anything when we get there. But everyone would be happy because we have draft picks that can hopefully turn into decent players right? And cap space that can hopefully turn into another star player right? SMH.

Teams do trade for and sign superstars, you know? If we'd been building right from the start, there's no reason why we wouldn't have been able to pull off any trades or signings to get at least one of Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Howard, or Paul.

and to continue the list and/or

Deron/Harden/Bynum/Josh Smith/Iggy/K-Mart/Bogut/Mayo/Beasley/Lowry/Johnson/Pau/Jefferson/Milsap

All of these guys were gettable or will be gettable in the very immediate future. I'm not saying all of these players would have been an attractive option but nevertheless look at all the potential combination of players.

None of those players you just listed give us a better chance to win a championship over Melo. That's just ridiculous. Some of those names are even borderline insulting to say in the same breath as Melo. Beasley, K-Mart, Iggy??? wow. Pass what you smoking.

Via trade and/or cap space option it wouldn't be a 1 to 1 comparison. It would be a combination comparison to Melo such as....

Josh Smith and Mayo>>>>>>>>>Melo

Harden and Lowry>>>>>>>Melo

Bynum and Beasley>>>>>>>Melo

Iggy and Bogut>>>>>>>Melo

Not to mention whatever else is acquired or made available post transactions

If that's the case then you have to do that on Melo's end too. so isn't Melo & Chandler since the Melo trade included Billups which turned into chandler.

Melo and Chandler >>>> Josh Smith/Mayo
Melo and Chandler >>> Harden/Lowry
Melo and Chandler >>Bynum/Beasley
Melo and Chandler >>> Iggy/Bogut

Even if you argue that anyone of those combinations are better then Melo and Chandler it's not by enough to even warrant any backlash.

Only in one of your comparisons does it come close in a 2 for 2 comparison and even then there's financial flexibility left over in the very last

You don't want me to break down salary for the pairs I have listed. Really you don't. Either understand the full scope of basketball and structuring a team together or don't

LOL are you a undercover NBA GM or something. you a couch fan just like me. Don't insult my intelligence. At the end of the day it's all opinions. In my opinion I wouldn't be happy with any of those other combinations you listed. You started the comparisons not me. When I pointed out the flaw in your initial 2 to 1 comparison you want to break down salaries now.

I'm a fan I don't care what they spend as long as the product is good on the floor. and right now it's a good product. Let the owners worry about salaries.

You want to tell me after all the salary dumping and awful seasons we had to endure if we had a final product of Iggy & Bogut that would be a success?? Josh Smith & Mayo?? Bynum & BEASLEY?? BEASLEY??? come on man. don't preach to me about understanding the full scope of structuring a team when you actually would type out the name Beasley.

My argument has been consistent centered around flexibility....financial flexibility is part of it. Sorry you can't grasp this.

Its funny because you talk about fables and fairy tales and suggest that a gm shouldn't pursue a star because other stars might become available. The Melo trade turned into Melo and Tyson. Amare did break down and doctors have said 5 years for micro fracture surgery so maybe he doesn't injure his back while D'Ant is riding him like Secretariat but his knee had a time line and it did give out. Gallo is a china doll. He is prepetually injured. He also isn't as good as most of his young teammates. Gm's and coaches are supposed to win especially in a big market like NY. Passing up stars in hopes that an up and comer or under achiever will sign for less is fine for fans to speculate about but doesn't translate well if you are supposed to be doing a job. Jackie Paper stopped believing in Puff. Maybe, maybe there is more to this gm game then you are seeing.

the point is who you pursue.. Knicks had no business going after carmelo.. not at that cost.. that is the problem.. You see him as a star, some of us don't, hence the reason for these types of arguments...no matter how much you try to down guys like gallo, it only weakens your argument.. It is a complete fail to try to justify a move by needlessly and unjustifiably trying to down another player...

The Job of a GM in any market, large or small is to make the best move for his team, in every area, and that includes financial, and protecting the teams assets...

here is the flaw in your argument..

He is prepetually injured. He also isn't as good as most of his young teammates.

and carmelo isn't as good as most of the other max players in the league....

see how easy that is...

the key is, it cost us nothing keeping gallo.. it cost us a lot acquiring carmelo..

This is where my whole issue has always been. At all costs. What does that mean? We didn't give away any future stars, no lottery picks, nothing outside of solid role players. This is just a classic case of people overrating that collection of assets because they were young players with reasonable upside. The league as a whole did not view that group of players as anything to write home about. Neither did Denver, thus the reason they kept working to complete a deal with the Nets prior to finally giving in, as well as anyone else who was willing to offer something without a promise from Anthony. There were teams out there putting out better packages than ours. Nets had better young players and lottery picks. We had neither. Anthony strong-armed his way here and that was the only reason we have him. I value Anthony the same way NBA teams do. The Knicks had one of the worst packages of players and assets to offer, and got it done because that's what Melo wanted.

first of all, I said at that cost.. not at all cost... but again, you felt we gave away solid role players.. well that is a broad label... is iggy a solid role player? is many? what is a solid role player? if you think we gave away a bunch of ronnie brewers and steve novaks, then I say you are wrong here....

I don't care what the nets had, and for the record how are the players the nets traded away doing? you see it is very evident you only intend to downplay what the knicks traded away.... favors is not starting for the jazz although he has upside, but so does gallo and chandler.... and devin harris is pretty much on his way to being a journeyman...

The Knicks had one of the worst packages of players and assets to offer, and got it done because that's what Melo wanted.

keep telling yourself this.. you just might believe it one day..

Iggy is not a role player, he is an all-star. A role player is one who will start on some teams, come off the bench on others, have an impact on the game, but is not a game-changer. That is what Gallo and Chandler are. Utah views Favors as a huge piece to the point where Milsap and Jefferson probably won't be on this team after this season. Harris was a former all-star and impact player who declined dramatically. Plus there were a series of draft picks which trumps the Knicks package on its own. I liked the Knicks players very much at that point. I just believe we vastly overrated them, and it gets more evident by the day.

you have to be kidding me with this.. first of all, there are few game changers, we call them superstars, guys like wade,lebron, durant, rose.... if you impact a game you are more than just a solid role player... so according to your definition, most players in the league are role players.. there are a lot of good players than can start for some teams, come off the bench on others... ginobili comes off the bench.. odom, crawford, even harden came off the bench... but that defines their role.. not their talent.. gallo was a starter for the knicks, and now he is s starter for the nuggets. .fact.. chandler as george karl put it, could start for most teams in the league..

But hey I see you made excuses for favors... and harris, played in one allstar game had a good season in 2009, but hardly do I use allstar games to define how good a player is, since most of those are popularity contest....

I just believe we vastly overrated them, and it gets more evident by the day.

who overrated them? it is like anything else around here.. as soon as a player leaves, he all of a sudden is no longer good.. we didn't overrate the kids, what happened is carmelo was overrated, and it is evident from day one when he came here.. so the new excuse became.. We had to get him a better team.. rofl.. isn't that what we were saying about amare and the kids? to keep adding better pieces?

exactly. the level of hypocrisy here is stunning. and guess what the argument is that we needed a second star to pair with stoudemire, and apparently any second star will do even if it has proven six ways to sunday that they do not fit together at all! so you pair an overrated player with stoudemire and compound the problem because he doesn't fit in with what is going on here at all, displacing the gm, the coach, several rotation players, and the first big money free agent as it turns out as well.

What yr should we be expecting a championship in Denver?

i don't know but they will be the equal of the knicks in their conference this season, 3-5 seed and their medium turn prospects for greater success exceeds ours.

So like the Knicks they should be WCF or bust this season right?

the average age of that team is probably 25 or so so their window is at least 4 or 5 years. why would they break up the team when they in fact have a clear plan in place, part of which acknowledges that other teams are going to be on downward cycle while they continue to grow together as a team?

the knicks average age is closer to 33-34 i would guess and their plan is to win now, meaning if they don't make a strong-- and promising-- showing this season, ie a ECF appearance that pushes whomever to 7 games, they will have to consider moving some big contract and go shopping. there is no real plan in place other than pack the team with older players that can hopefully hold up and provide a steadying hand to a somewhat rudderless core.

TheloniusMonk wrote:Knicks average age is 31. Average of their starters is 27.

okay 31. that is still a maximum two-year window with this year as a litmus of their ceiling.