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[GameThread] PAYBACK TIME AND NO MORE SCREWING AROUND: NYK @ IND, 3/15/11, 7PM
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mreinman
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3/16/2011  1:33 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:Funny that people defend a guy who got fired ("resigned") from Phoenix after being told to hire Tom Thibodeau as his assistant coach.

Yes, THE Tom Thibodeau. The same one who went to the Celtics and transformed their defense and now has the Bulls as the #1 defensive team in the NBA.

I did not know/remember that they tried to hire Thibs. What a joke MDAss is.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
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y2zipper
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3/16/2011  1:51 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
y2zipper wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:D'Antoni has to go. Its a given now. And if that means Walsh leaves with him, I'll be sad but I won't care.

Any other coach would have this team playing AVERAGE defense, which would've won us the last two games and many more. D'Antoni amazingly has them playing ZIP!

Really? MDA leaves and Melo and Amare becomes beasts on D too?

Does MDA leaving find us a guy to guard Roy Hibbert and stop Hansborough from looking like Kevin F-in Mchale out there?

I really do hope it's that easy. Fire MDA and we go from 25th in FG % allowed to what?

Let's assume you're right..MDA tells the players "Hey the plan is we're going to outscore the other team and not play D"

Does that mean all the vets and our "superstars" just all fall in line and say okay..let's not play D?

I'm not saying MDA is blame free in the lack of defense but just find it's a bit odd to think that the players..the guys actually on the court don't have as much or MORE blame that should be falling on their shoulders.

The guys on the court should take the blame just as well as D'Antoni does, but I don't understand why everyone's looking at this like it's a new problem. The Knicks had no height and no defense before Carmelo got here, and became a better team with no height and no defense now that Melo is here. The trade wasn't for this year, and Walsh summed it up perfectly when he said that it's his job to find the roleplayers again. It's not happenging this season, though.


I think the lack of height issue is on D'Antoni. Walsh has brought in guys with height that he was high on and thought would help the team but the coach wouldn't play them.

Nah, it's on Walsh. He needs to do better than Anthony Randolph and Mozgov, but Mozgov got playing time when he showed potential.

Paladin55
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3/16/2011  2:24 AM
If MDA is fired or leaves, it's because you can't reverse a trade which got us a non-defending star and an over-the-hill star (Billups looked very old out there at times yesterday- I like him as a player and as a man, but he clearly has some defensive issues against quicker PGs), for a 7'1" center, a 6'10+" SF, a 6'8" swingman who can block shots, and a PG who can penetrate and play some D... who combined have an average age under 25.

And hell, we not only have defensive issues, but there are times when I'm bored with our offense.

Terrible game, with little good you can take away, but who cares when we have our own version of a "big 3" we can brag about.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
mreinman
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3/16/2011  2:35 AM
Paladin55 wrote:If MDA is fired or leaves, it's because you can't reverse a trade which got us a non-defending star and an over-the-hill star (Billups looked very old out there at times yesterday- I like him as a player and as a man, but he clearly has some defensive issues against quicker PGs), for a 7'1" center, a 6'10+" SF, a 6'8" swingman who can block shots, and a PG who can penetrate and play some D... who combined have an average age under 25.

And hell, we not only have defensive issues, but there are times when I'm bored with our offense.

Terrible game, with little good you can take away, but who cares when we have our own version of a "big 3" we can brag about.

It really does not matter who's fault it is. The coach always takes the blame. Should our current team go 0-4 against Indiana and Cleveland? That's on the coach. Because it is always on the coach. Accountability.

It's not like they were tearing it up for MDA before the trade.

When Kurt Rambis and Del Harris were coaching the Lakers everyone said "the players are not trying, they don't care blah blah blah". Then along comes Phil Jackson and BADABING! They CARE!

so here is what phil is thinking ....
TMS
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3/16/2011  7:58 AM
NYKBocker wrote:We lost this game because we are just too damn small. We will continue to have problems with teams that have quality centers. Teams that can bother Amare with their length.

Defense is bad but that is what we should expect from Amare and Melo. They are just not very good defenders. They need a defensive, rebounding tall center.

so when the coach refuses to play our only guys with some size & heft in the paint that might be able to box out Roy Hibbert & prevent him from grabbing 6 offensive boards, the coach bears no accountability?

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
NYKBocker
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3/16/2011  8:08 AM
TMS wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:We lost this game because we are just too damn small. We will continue to have problems with teams that have quality centers. Teams that can bother Amare with their length.

Defense is bad but that is what we should expect from Amare and Melo. They are just not very good defenders. They need a defensive, rebounding tall center.

so when the coach refuses to play our only guys with some size & heft in the paint that might be able to box out Roy Hibbert & prevent him from grabbing 6 offensive boards, the coach bears no accountability?

I don't know man. I am numb as hell. I find myself disinterested even while watching the game. It was hard to watch Amare and Melo not hustle for the ball.

misterearl
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3/16/2011  8:47 AM
Paladin55 wrote:If MDA is fired or leaves, it's because you can't reverse a trade which got us a non-defending star and an over-the-hill star (Billups looked very old out there at times yesterday- I like him as a player and as a man, but he clearly has some defensive issues against quicker PGs), for a 7'1" center, a 6'10+" SF, a 6'8" swingman who can block shots, and a PG who can penetrate and play some D... who combined have an average age under 25.

And hell, we not only have defensive issues, but there are times when I'm bored with our offense.

Terrible game, with little good you can take away, but who cares when we have our own version of a "big 3" we can brag about.

The trade gutted the Knicks of more than talent. We lost too much heart and soul.

once a knick always a knick
mreinman
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3/16/2011  9:10 AM
misterearl wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:If MDA is fired or leaves, it's because you can't reverse a trade which got us a non-defending star and an over-the-hill star (Billups looked very old out there at times yesterday- I like him as a player and as a man, but he clearly has some defensive issues against quicker PGs), for a 7'1" center, a 6'10+" SF, a 6'8" swingman who can block shots, and a PG who can penetrate and play some D... who combined have an average age under 25.

And hell, we not only have defensive issues, but there are times when I'm bored with our offense.

Terrible game, with little good you can take away, but who cares when we have our own version of a "big 3" we can brag about.

The trade gutted the Knicks of more than talent. We lost too much heart and soul.

Well, Chandler was/is to be a free agent and we were not going to resign him. And, though I really liked him, he lacked heart and soul.

Gallo, huge heart - tough loss - lacked consistency

Felton, the biggest heart - but I think Billups is the better player especially in the playoffs

Moz - Just a STUPID DUMB throw in. I loved the kid and this to me, is the most painful part of the trade. Lack of self control by a psycho owner

At the end of the day, it was Gallo and Moz for Carmelo. Do we not make that trade if we had no other option? Tough Call!

so here is what phil is thinking ....
fishmike
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3/16/2011  9:30 AM
mreinman wrote:
misterearl wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:If MDA is fired or leaves, it's because you can't reverse a trade which got us a non-defending star and an over-the-hill star (Billups looked very old out there at times yesterday- I like him as a player and as a man, but he clearly has some defensive issues against quicker PGs), for a 7'1" center, a 6'10+" SF, a 6'8" swingman who can block shots, and a PG who can penetrate and play some D... who combined have an average age under 25.

And hell, we not only have defensive issues, but there are times when I'm bored with our offense.

Terrible game, with little good you can take away, but who cares when we have our own version of a "big 3" we can brag about.

The trade gutted the Knicks of more than talent. We lost too much heart and soul.

Well, Chandler was/is to be a free agent and we were not going to resign him. And, though I really liked him, he lacked heart and soul.

Gallo, huge heart - tough loss - lacked consistency

Felton, the biggest heart - but I think Billups is the better player especially in the playoffs

Moz - Just a STUPID DUMB throw in. I loved the kid and this to me, is the most painful part of the trade. Lack of self control by a psycho owner

At the end of the day, it was Gallo and Moz for Carmelo. Do we not make that trade if we had no other option? Tough Call!

Chandler, AR, Felton and a draft pick count for something. Chandler is a good player and has played VERY well for Denver. He was also great at rotating on defense and could guard a lot of guys.

Please.. we traded 4 rotation players, a pick and a prospect for Melo and a 34 year old PG on his last legs. At least call it what it was instead of trying to make yourself feel better about a trade thats looking worse and worse every game

Mark Cuban: "Denver made a great trade."
Felton: "Denver is better than the Knicks"
Karl: "its easier to get guys to play defense now"

To bad as Knick fan we cant put reality on ignore!

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
mreinman
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3/16/2011  9:42 AM
fishmike wrote:
mreinman wrote:
misterearl wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:If MDA is fired or leaves, it's because you can't reverse a trade which got us a non-defending star and an over-the-hill star (Billups looked very old out there at times yesterday- I like him as a player and as a man, but he clearly has some defensive issues against quicker PGs), for a 7'1" center, a 6'10+" SF, a 6'8" swingman who can block shots, and a PG who can penetrate and play some D... who combined have an average age under 25.

And hell, we not only have defensive issues, but there are times when I'm bored with our offense.

Terrible game, with little good you can take away, but who cares when we have our own version of a "big 3" we can brag about.

The trade gutted the Knicks of more than talent. We lost too much heart and soul.

Well, Chandler was/is to be a free agent and we were not going to resign him. And, though I really liked him, he lacked heart and soul.

Gallo, huge heart - tough loss - lacked consistency

Felton, the biggest heart - but I think Billups is the better player especially in the playoffs

Moz - Just a STUPID DUMB throw in. I loved the kid and this to me, is the most painful part of the trade. Lack of self control by a psycho owner

At the end of the day, it was Gallo and Moz for Carmelo. Do we not make that trade if we had no other option? Tough Call!

Chandler, AR, Felton and a draft pick count for something. Chandler is a good player and has played VERY well for Denver. He was also great at rotating on defense and could guard a lot of guys.

Please.. we traded 4 rotation players, a pick and a prospect for Melo and a 34 year old PG on his last legs. At least call it what it was instead of trying to make yourself feel better about a trade thats looking worse and worse every game

Mark Cuban: "Denver made a great trade."
Felton: "Denver is better than the Knicks"
Karl: "its easier to get guys to play defense now"

To bad as Knick fan we cant put reality on ignore!

Yes AR was great - I loved seeing him play! MMMMM fond memories. Thanks MDA.

Read my post carefuly - I like Chandler but he would not have been resigned.

Denver is better than the knicks. And they have a coach too.

Geeez - tunnel vision at it's best "No Bill Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman" CRAZY

so here is what phil is thinking ....
martin
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3/16/2011  9:50 AM
TMS wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
MSG3 wrote:I dont understand why Sheldon Williams doesn't get any burn when it's clear that Hansborough is scoring at will. I just don't get it. WHy is it so hard to adjust?

This I'll agree with. Pacers kept going to Hibbert down low when Amare had 5 fouls on him and there was 0 adjustment made. That was a bit curious.

why would u have STAT guarding Hibbert in the post with your best low post defender sitting on the bench in Turiaf? this is why people get up in arms w/this coach the decisions he makes, or fails to make, are mindboggling.

Turiaf did guard Hibbert when he was in the game and the same result happened. Hibbert either scored or was fouled.

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GustavBahler
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3/16/2011  2:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2011  2:06 PM
One thing that struck me about these Knicks is that if you take Stat and Melo off the roster the Knicks look a lot like the Layden era Knicks without the effort. That's the only good thing I can say about those teams.

The Melo trade is having the same effect as that stuff kids chew that turns their teeth red where they should be brushing. The Knicks are seeing what not having a true big man patrolling the paint does to this team, even with two all-stars. Hope Walsh is around to address that.

GodSaveTheKnicks
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3/16/2011  5:34 PM
martin wrote:
TMS wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
MSG3 wrote:I dont understand why Sheldon Williams doesn't get any burn when it's clear that Hansborough is scoring at will. I just don't get it. WHy is it so hard to adjust?

This I'll agree with. Pacers kept going to Hibbert down low when Amare had 5 fouls on him and there was 0 adjustment made. That was a bit curious.

why would u have STAT guarding Hibbert in the post with your best low post defender sitting on the bench in Turiaf? this is why people get up in arms w/this coach the decisions he makes, or fails to make, are mindboggling.

Turiaf did guard Hibbert when he was in the game and the same result happened. Hibbert either scored or was fouled.

only diff. is if Turiaf gets into foul trouble it's not as much of a killer on our team. Amare in foul trouble = layup line or our 1a/1b offensive weapon is out of the game.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
martin
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3/16/2011  5:55 PM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
martin wrote:
TMS wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
MSG3 wrote:I dont understand why Sheldon Williams doesn't get any burn when it's clear that Hansborough is scoring at will. I just don't get it. WHy is it so hard to adjust?

This I'll agree with. Pacers kept going to Hibbert down low when Amare had 5 fouls on him and there was 0 adjustment made. That was a bit curious.

why would u have STAT guarding Hibbert in the post with your best low post defender sitting on the bench in Turiaf? this is why people get up in arms w/this coach the decisions he makes, or fails to make, are mindboggling.

Turiaf did guard Hibbert when he was in the game and the same result happened. Hibbert either scored or was fouled.

only diff. is if Turiaf gets into foul trouble it's not as much of a killer on our team. Amare in foul trouble = layup line or our 1a/1b offensive weapon is out of the game.

i am thinking that Donnie Walsh could get both Amare and Turiaf to jump in the air with just a hint of a head fake, and then just lay the ball in uncontested.

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TMS
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3/16/2011  7:33 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
TMS wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:We lost this game because we are just too damn small. We will continue to have problems with teams that have quality centers. Teams that can bother Amare with their length.

Defense is bad but that is what we should expect from Amare and Melo. They are just not very good defenders. They need a defensive, rebounding tall center.

so when the coach refuses to play our only guys with some size & heft in the paint that might be able to box out Roy Hibbert & prevent him from grabbing 6 offensive boards, the coach bears no accountability?

I don't know man. I am numb as hell. I find myself disinterested even while watching the game. It was hard to watch Amare and Melo not hustle for the ball.

on that much i'm with u it was disgusting how lackadaisical our players were on defense that goes for all of them other than maybe Toney Douglas... what's really disturbing is seeing role players who are otherwise known to be defensive minded just give up easy basket after easy basket.

what's silly here is people wanna blame the Melo trade for destroying any chemistry this team had but seriously how much chemistry & defensive intensity did we see the previous team display this year other than that 13-1 stretch they were playing pretty bad basketball, overall they were barely over .500 for the season & fans expect a team that's been together all of a week & a half with 5-6 new guys in the rotation to already know each others' tendencies & be playing at an elite level... these same fans that preached patience, patience, patience at the start of the season after this team got off to yet another horrible 3W-8L start after a full training camp & summer league getting to know each other on the court & learning this system... it was all good to be patient then but now it's all about immediate returns... it's freakin' laughable

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
NYKBocker
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3/16/2011  9:01 PM
TMS wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
TMS wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:We lost this game because we are just too damn small. We will continue to have problems with teams that have quality centers. Teams that can bother Amare with their length.

Defense is bad but that is what we should expect from Amare and Melo. They are just not very good defenders. They need a defensive, rebounding tall center.

so when the coach refuses to play our only guys with some size & heft in the paint that might be able to box out Roy Hibbert & prevent him from grabbing 6 offensive boards, the coach bears no accountability?

I don't know man. I am numb as hell. I find myself disinterested even while watching the game. It was hard to watch Amare and Melo not hustle for the ball.

on that much i'm with u it was disgusting how lackadaisical our players were on defense that goes for all of them other than maybe Toney Douglas... what's really disturbing is seeing role players who are otherwise known to be defensive minded just give up easy basket after easy basket.

what's silly here is people wanna blame the Melo trade for destroying any chemistry this team had but seriously how much chemistry & defensive intensity did we see the previous team display this year other than that 13-1 stretch they were playing pretty bad basketball, overall they were barely over .500 for the season & fans expect a team that's been together all of a week & a half with 5-6 new guys in the rotation to already know each others' tendencies & be playing at an elite level... these same fans that preached patience, patience, patience at the start of the season after this team got off to yet another horrible 3W-8L start after a full training camp & summer league getting to know each other on the court & learning this system... it was all good to be patient then but now it's all about immediate returns... it's freakin' laughable

I am not into blaming. Just don't see any use for it. I really enjoyed the team pre-trade. No secret that I am a big Gallo fan. I thought we gave up too much in the trade with whole Melo wanting out situation but I do believe that talent wise this was an even trade. Team wise we are broken. Pre-trade, we had all the parts except for backup PG. Now we are missing a center and a backup PG and a 6th man.

I don't think we should expect much this year. I will wait and see how we do in the off-season and a full training camp under Melo, Amare and Billups belt.

TMS
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3/16/2011  9:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2011  9:14 PM
fishmike wrote:
mreinman wrote:
misterearl wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:If MDA is fired or leaves, it's because you can't reverse a trade which got us a non-defending star and an over-the-hill star (Billups looked very old out there at times yesterday- I like him as a player and as a man, but he clearly has some defensive issues against quicker PGs), for a 7'1" center, a 6'10+" SF, a 6'8" swingman who can block shots, and a PG who can penetrate and play some D... who combined have an average age under 25.

And hell, we not only have defensive issues, but there are times when I'm bored with our offense.

Terrible game, with little good you can take away, but who cares when we have our own version of a "big 3" we can brag about.

The trade gutted the Knicks of more than talent. We lost too much heart and soul.

Well, Chandler was/is to be a free agent and we were not going to resign him. And, though I really liked him, he lacked heart and soul.

Gallo, huge heart - tough loss - lacked consistency

Felton, the biggest heart - but I think Billups is the better player especially in the playoffs

Moz - Just a STUPID DUMB throw in. I loved the kid and this to me, is the most painful part of the trade. Lack of self control by a psycho owner

At the end of the day, it was Gallo and Moz for Carmelo. Do we not make that trade if we had no other option? Tough Call!

Chandler, AR, Felton and a draft pick count for something. Chandler is a good player and has played VERY well for Denver. He was also great at rotating on defense and could guard a lot of guys.

Please.. we traded 4 rotation players, a pick and a prospect for Melo and a 34 year old PG on his last legs. At least call it what it was instead of trying to make yourself feel better about a trade thats looking worse and worse every game

Mark Cuban: "Denver made a great trade."
Felton: "Denver is better than the Knicks"
Karl: "its easier to get guys to play defense now"

To bad as Knick fan we cant put reality on ignore!

Mark Cuban's opinion really matters here... Ray Felton, the guy who got traded away, great source for an unbiased opinion.

Donnie Walsh on Mike Francessa WFAN: "We would have tried to use our room next summer to get let's say, Carmelo, but when it became apparent that we couldn't do it that way, then we just moved to say 'OK, we'll get the super player and then we'll strategize how to get the support players that we'll need around him once we get this team together, so that's what we did."

Donnie Walsh press conference post-trade: "I'm really happy about it... You know I don't think it would have happened that we would have had a chance to sign Carmelo because I think he would have signed an extension... Also I'd like to state we're extremely happy to get Chauncey because I think he's a real quality player. Indiana had to face him all the time, you know deep in the playoffs sometimes and he is a bigtime player."

Mike D'Antoni interviewed on Boomer & Carton: "We had no idea even if we waited that people start putting franchise tags on things, that we just couldn't make it work even this summer, and you know 'what if, what if, what if'. Well you just don't know. So we just took the obvious thing. The obvious thing was to get a talent like Carmelo in here, bite the bullet, we had to give up a lot of young talent, but if you told me in June that Mozgov, or even Gallo & Landry Fields that 'Oh God, we can't get rid of them to get Carmelo', it's almost laughable... You've got to get superstars, if you want to win a title, if New York wants to be great, you've got to... there's not some blueprint where you can just get a mediocre player and become a champion, but you've got to have that talent that you know is God given."

Masai Ujiri: "We feel we got killed in the trade because we lost a couple of pretty good players. Obviously, Carmelo Anthony. I feel sad for the city of Denver. I feel bad that this was done on my watch. To lose a guy like that. And also Chauncey (Billups). But I think we had to do it... When you lose star players in the history of sports, even basketball, you lose a star player like Carmelo, it's really hard to get value back... There's no question about it. When I got home (Monday) night (after agreeing to deal Anthony), I was just staring and watching ESPN and they're showing all these highlights and game-winners (by Anthony). And you wonder. That's where I'm coming from. But we lost a superstar, and superstars are hard to find in this league and in any sport. Chauncey and Melo were the ultimate. They brought smiles and excitement and greatness to this basketball organization."

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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3/16/2011  9:19 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
TMS wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
TMS wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:We lost this game because we are just too damn small. We will continue to have problems with teams that have quality centers. Teams that can bother Amare with their length.

Defense is bad but that is what we should expect from Amare and Melo. They are just not very good defenders. They need a defensive, rebounding tall center.

so when the coach refuses to play our only guys with some size & heft in the paint that might be able to box out Roy Hibbert & prevent him from grabbing 6 offensive boards, the coach bears no accountability?

I don't know man. I am numb as hell. I find myself disinterested even while watching the game. It was hard to watch Amare and Melo not hustle for the ball.

on that much i'm with u it was disgusting how lackadaisical our players were on defense that goes for all of them other than maybe Toney Douglas... what's really disturbing is seeing role players who are otherwise known to be defensive minded just give up easy basket after easy basket.

what's silly here is people wanna blame the Melo trade for destroying any chemistry this team had but seriously how much chemistry & defensive intensity did we see the previous team display this year other than that 13-1 stretch they were playing pretty bad basketball, overall they were barely over .500 for the season & fans expect a team that's been together all of a week & a half with 5-6 new guys in the rotation to already know each others' tendencies & be playing at an elite level... these same fans that preached patience, patience, patience at the start of the season after this team got off to yet another horrible 3W-8L start after a full training camp & summer league getting to know each other on the court & learning this system... it was all good to be patient then but now it's all about immediate returns... it's freakin' laughable

I am not into blaming. Just don't see any use for it. I really enjoyed the team pre-trade. No secret that I am a big Gallo fan. I thought we gave up too much in the trade with whole Melo wanting out situation but I do believe that talent wise this was an even trade. Team wise we are broken. Pre-trade, we had all the parts except for backup PG. Now we are missing a center and a backup PG and a 6th man.

I don't think we should expect much this year. I will wait and see how we do in the off-season and a full training camp under Melo, Amare and Billups belt.

fair enough... i enjoyed the team pre-trade too but never got the feeling it was a core good enough to build around... Amar'e was the only real keeper in my eyes, the rest of them i saw as expendable pieces assets we would probably someday use in a trade to get someone to play with Amar'e as that second superstar... the best one that was available was Carmelo... seemed like a natural fit... we'll see if he & Stat can form the same chemistry together that the Heat are beginning to do, it took those guys a little while before they really started to click & this was after a full training camp together... i don't think it's fair to expect Melo & Stat to be on the same page after a few practices & a handfull of games, it's gonna take a little time... hopefully this team is gelling a little bit going into the postseason, once a team gets hot it can string together a lot of W's in this game.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
[GameThread] PAYBACK TIME AND NO MORE SCREWING AROUND: NYK @ IND, 3/15/11, 7PM

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